[Alison's Mom]

DS is 3.5, will be 4 in August, and has been out of diapers for about a year. It's always been somewhat of a struggle to get him to go, as often we would ask and he would always say no until it was way too late. We learned to watch for signals for #2, and take him to pee every 2 hours or so. The last several weeks have been a nightmare. Whenever we ask, he says no vehemently, then if we persist, he gets really upset and has a tantrum. Then he will go #1 and #2 in his pants.<br><br>
Frankly, I am getting really frustrated, as he clearly knows he needs to go, but just refuses to go to the toilet. It used to be that we would say 'OK, let's pee, then we'll play this game, etc' and he would go. Or, we would distract with asking him a question, and while he was answering we would bring him to pee, but lately it hasn't been working. He's so busy playing, eating, etc that he just refuses to go. When I ask, it's always 'NO, I already told you I don't need to go!' If I pick him up and take him over, he'll just fight me kicking and screaming and it doesn't work anyway.<br><br>
I'm tempted to use treats/prizes, but he seems so old to need to do this!

 

[pbjmama]

What would happen if he had an accident and you said something like 'oh, looks like you pooped your pants. here are some clean clothes and wipes. clean up and then you can get back to what you were doing.'

 

[nina_yyc]

I dunno but I'm right there with you. DD is 3.5 and was trained by us taking her to the potty at specific times. She can and has stayed dry all day around 3yo but then she got cocky and started having accidents so we were taking her again. That type of thing is not working anymore! I really cannot always be on top of it, especially if her pattern is thrown off by something random like drinking two juice boxes <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll">. Anyway I am sick of the accidents and I am sick of her peeing just a little bit in her undies and then walking around in it all day. Luckily with poop she is 100%, never misses. I tried making her responsible for cleaning up all the accidents and that was not sufficiently motivating and ended in fights and her not telling me about the accidents.<br><br>
Last week I brought it up at the family meeting and we told her it was her responsibility to get herself to the toilet, and we are serious and she needs to learn - otherwise she cannot go to preschool in September and we will be embarrassed to take her out and have playdates. She said she would do it and since then I have not taken her to the toilet except right before her dance class. There have been accidents but there is some improvement. She waits waaaaaaaay too long and I can tell she has to go but I am letting her screw it up until she figures it out. She is trying harder and I do hear "I have to go to the bathroom" a few times a day - something I have NEVER heard before. I'm not letting her wear pants or dresses at home so I can tell as soon as her undies are wet (NO, she sometimes STILL does not tell me) and I'm letting her go bare bum if she wants. I think the idea of not going to school seems motivating. Luckily I don't have much carpet.

 

[Alison's Mom]

PBJ - I like the idea of natural consequences and use this for other types of clean up. However, DS has really sensitive, eczema prone skin, and any sort of pee/poo on his skin for any amount of time turns red and itchy/raw. . . so much so that I give him a 'bum shower' (get him in the shower to wash bum area with soap and water) every time he goes #2, and if we're in a hurry, I use soapy wet cloths to wash down the area gently, then wipe with a wet non-soapy cloth to get the poo residue off his skin. DH doesn't even do a good enough job wiping this kid, and if he did the wiping himself - yikes.<br><br>
Nina - good to know others are dealing with this too! DS is already in preschool and has had only one pee accident there. He's only gone #2 once or twice there, but has always told a teacher he needed to go (thankfully!). I may resort to the sticker chart and letting him pick out a toy at the end of a week or something.<br><br>
Admittedly he's worse when our lives are somewhat chaotic. . . I was out of town a couple weekends ago (for the first time, but they were fine with DH), then very busy last weekend with my friend's stagette/shower and now DH is out of town.

 

[Autumn Breeze]

Honestly that's when I stop trying. I say "ok, you don't want to go, but you might have an accident, and that is going to take more time to clean up" then I walk away.<br><br>
My 4.5 yr old dd was just finally completely potty learned 3 weeks ago. We went on a short vacation, and she was dry the entire time (we got the poop down over a year ago, it was getting all the pee in the potty that we were having trouble with). Everything was great in the potty department, until she got a stomach virus. She didn't pee but once a day for 3 days, then she started having diarrhea. She was upset that she "peed" (poop) in her diaper, and would tell me she was sorry. I kept telling her "it's nothing to be sorry about your tummy is sick and it was an accident". Well, she got better, but now she's peeing in her diapers again, and having accidents when I put her in panties. I'm sad about it, frustrated. I mean, she's 4.5. Holy crap. I thought my son took a long time, he was just a few weeks past 4 when he learned. But, oh well. I can't push her. Potty and Food consumption are the only things she can REALLY control. I offer the potty, just like I offer her food "here it is, take it or leave it", if she doesn't want it, we move on. She'll come back eventually.<br><br>
Especially when things CHANGE! I still swear my son would have been 2.5 and out of diapers. But we moved from our apartment to a house, and he completely regressed.

 

[Alison's Mom]

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<div style="font-style:italic;">Honestly that's when I stop trying. I say "ok, you don't want to go, but you might have an accident, and that is going to take more time to clean up" then I walk away.</div>
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Yeah, I like that. I might try it.<br><br>
Today was a bit better apart from doing a #2 in his night time diaper after waking up too early and while I was still dozing in bed. His excuse was that I was still sleeping and he didn't want to wake me up. Hmmm, that didn't stop him from taking a pair of kid scissors and snipping a chunk out of my hair while I was semi comatose at 6.45am!<br><br>
He agreed to pee most times today; it's still easier to distract and ask him questions while just bringing him to the bathroom. Man oh man, yesterday it was 4 changes of clothes. . . I had really had it.

 

[nina_yyc]

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<div style="font-style:italic;">Especially when things CHANGE! I still swear my son would have been 2.5 and out of diapers. But we moved from our apartment to a house, and he completely regressed.</div>
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That does make me feel a little better. Five months ago DD was taken out of her beloved daycare and started staying home with me and then along came a new brother. I also could have sworn she would be trained right at two because I saw a good window but I didn't want to push her at daycare because our DCP rents and has light coloured carpet. Arrrrgh!!!!!

 

[titania8]

It's crazy making, isn't it!??? You are describing my 4yo. The boy pees 2-3 times a day, and not until he *absolutely* cannot hold it any longer. Hates to take the time to sit and poop, even though it's oozing out all day. I would get SO frustated! I realized at some point, when it was the worst, that partly he was reacting to MY frustration. It was his "control", yk? So I took my emotions out (best I could) and thongs got better. Not great, or what I would consider 'normal' toilet behavior (his twin has no issues), but improved. For a while.<br><br>
About 2 weeks ago, after cleaning him up from the third or fourth poop oozing accident of the day, I had a stroke of genius-- I decided we were<br>
making a contract. I told him that he does need to sit on the pot everyday, so would he like it to be in the morning or afternoon? He chose morning. Ok. What time- 8:30 or 9? He thought after breakfast would be good. Great, how long- 5 mins? 10? He chose 4. Which is fine, because once he sits, he'll spend half an hour happily playing with whatever he brings with him. So I wrote up a contract with all the details and we both signed it. He decided to hang it on the fridge (I had asked him where we were going to put it).<br><br>
So that was two weeks ago. He's sat everyday (there have been some mild protests, but it's non negotiable) and has pooped everyday. He's had ONE little accident. One. In two weeks. And he's SO much happier, as am I!! I would have never thought it possible. I was getting ready to seek professional help (seriously, there are specialists! Met one at the LLL confrence).<br><br>
So that's our story. I'm not saying we're home free, but I'm sure you recognize what a BIG deal this is.

 

[madskye]

How about potty time? Can you tell him that you want to designate at least three times a day as "potty times"<br><br>
1st thing in the AM<br>
Right after lunch<br>
Right after dinner<br><br>
What happens in between is up to him, but that way at least you know that he is emptying himself 3x per day, before any other activities start again? Having a loose schedule like that, built around meal times, might also help him be more independent and get in the swing of it.

 

[laohaire]

You might not want to do bribes but just wanted to toss out an idea if you find yourself considering it again.<br><br>
I didn't want to do bribes because of the ongoing nature of them. I wanted DD to use the potty for its own reasons, not because she'd get anything for it (other than dry clothes and a happy mama).<br><br>
But, for different reasons, she wouldn't go in the potty for #2. I felt like she would go if she just got used to it. Might not be the same for your kiddo but maybe it will change the dynamic a bit, who knows. So I offered a one-time bribe only. If she pooped in the potty each day for 5 days in a row, she would get the (reasonably priced) toy of her choice. She had a doll in mind. I made up a chart with 5 boxes, and we'd make a big X each day she went in the potty and didn't ask for a diaper. When we made the 5th X, we got her the toy (DH actually took her to buy it immediately! Like, they were on the road within 5 minutes!). As I suspected, after 5 days of changing her habits she was fine continuing using the potty with no further rewards now that she had it figured out.<br><br>
Anyway, it's not exactly your scenario but something to keep in mind.<br><br>
Personally when I ask DD if she needs to go and she says no, I drop it. BUT I understand that the dynamic goes both ways; you push it because you've learned he says No no matter what. It just seems to me a power struggle, though, so you might consider trying to back off. Yes, I'm sure he'll still soil his pants for a bit but that's no worse than now, maybe if the dynamic changed it might help? Just my thoughts.

 

[Autumn Breeze]

Funny, this afternoon, while getting back to schooling with my oldest, I asked my youngest to go potty before she went to play on the computer. She said she didn't want to, didn't like going potty.<br><br>
I told her I was sorry. She could go play the computer, but if she had an accident, she would have to stop playing for a long time while we got everything cleaned up. She went in and turned on the computer, and about 2 minutes later I heard her in the bathroom getting everything moved around so she could go pee <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol">

 

[Alison's Mom]

Thanks everyone. Great points and excellent insights.<br><br>
Yes, it's probably a control thing and because he always says no, we are more persistant that he would probably like us to be.<br><br>
I like the contract and I like the idea of choosing 3 times a day to go. I think that would work for pee, but when you don't have to poo, you just don't have to poo, yk? If someone told me to #2 every day at 9am, I would come up empty half the time. DS isn't regular enough to be able to produce at the same time every day. Hmmmm.<br><br>
Telling him ahead of time of the natural consequences of accidents is a good one, too. I will try this one for sure.<br><br>
I'm also somewhat against bribes iin general, so had thought of that only as a last resort.

 

[titania8]

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<div style="font-style:italic;">Thanks everyone. Great points and excellent insights.<br><br>
Yes, it's probably a control thing and because he always says no, we are more persistant that he would probably like us to be.<br><br>
I like the contract and I like the idea of choosing 3 times a day to go. I think that would work for pee, but when you don't have to poo, you just don't have to poo, yk? If someone told me to #2 every day at 9am, I would come up empty half the time. DS isn't regular enough to be able to produce at the same time every day. Hmmmm.<br><br>
Telling him ahead of time of the natural consequences of accidents is a good one, too. I will try this one for sure.<br><br>
I'm also somewhat against bribes iin general, so had thought of that only as a last resort.</div>
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and you know, the funny thing about the timed 'sits' is when he would have his accidents, it was never in the morning! i don't say he has to produce, just sit for 4 minutes. but he has gone EVERY TIME! i don't get it, but whatever, it's working pretty well. though he did have an accident this afternoon. but still, one accident per week is something i can live with. good luck.

 

[Alison's Mom]

Wow, that's amazing - so glad it's working for you!!<br><br>
My DS has been great with #1 that last few days, with no accidents, but is keen to #2 into his night time diaper first thing in the morning. And I have a feeling that if we changed him into underwear first thing, he would just go in those!<br><br>
Still working on it. . . .

 

[Autumn Breeze]

Give it time, it will come! My daughter is still wet in the morning, and my son used to poop first thing too. Once he gets comfortable with his potty usage, it will be easier to try to tackle that AM poop.