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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just composed this for a debate-board post, but wanted to share it here as well...<br><br>
---<br><br>
Babies cannot articulate their discomfort in the way older children and adults do. And just like crying is a late sign of hunger, crying is not the only sign-and perhaps even a late sign-of pain. That's why the NIPS scale doesn't just measure crying, and why studies on infant pain also often measure heartrate and respiratory rates, b/p, cortisiol levels, etc. Newborn pain is a complex thing, and not something we can always determine with the naked eye.<br><br>
In addition, some parents really do lack common sense with regard to circumcision pain. I have heard parents defend the fact that they are having their son circumcised but the doctor doesn't use pain relief because it's "quick", "they won't remember it anyway", etc. I've even heard of mothers not caring if circumcision hurts, because birth was painful for them and the pain of circumcision is somehow justified because of that. I remember on another forum a parent posting that there baby was circumcised that day or the day before, and he was really fussy and the parent assumed the *breastfed* newborn was constipated, and was looking for ways to remedy the presumed constipation...rather than considering that maybe, just maybe, his penis hurt. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="rolleyes"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/confused.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Confused">:<br><br>
Also, I'm not sure where I've said that I have the ability to read the subconscious thoughts of newborns, but I have asked people here to consider what it must be like for a newborn whose been inside the womb, in a tight, dark, muffled space...to the outside...and how that experience in itself, the normal transition to the outside world, the lights, the louder sounds, the smells, learning to breathe, tasting something new (breastmilk/formula), learning to eat/nurse, his body having to regulate his temperature, the odd sensations of diapers and clothing against his skin, the smells...and the only person he knows, the familiar voice of his mother, her smell, and being snugly wrapped...is gone during circumcision. He's unwrapped, exposed to the chill of hospital air...under bright lights...layed on rigid, molded plastic board...and his arms and legs are stretched out so he's completely prone, and then put through the circumcision procedure, which even with anesthetic is distressing for babies.<br><br>
We should have empathy for him. We should consider how he feels. We should try to imagine what that experience must be like for him, before we consent to it, before we hand him over, before we put our completely healthy, normal newborn through a completely unnecessary, elective surgery on his most private parts. It has been said that circumcision is where "sex and violence first meet". Many parents don't like the way that sounds, but what if it were a female child on that board, having her vagina stretched and her hymen broken? Babies have no way to understand why something is happening to them, they only experience it...and circumcision must be intense and confusing and yes, probably scary. Pain=cortisol/adrenaline=the 'fight or flight' instinct=fear.<br><br>
As was posted previously, the experiences of preverbal children don't have language-descriptive words-attached, but that doesn't mean they don't-on some level-remember. I think this SHOULD be studied more. I know that adults have been put under hypnosis and have worked through various birth traumas, and some do 'remember' their circumcision. And we also do know that the affects of hormones on the brain can be far reaching, and that circumcision pain sensitizes newborns...and they react more strongly to later pain during immunizations.<br><br>
A few months ago, I took a Neonatal Resucitation class and something that had a profound effect on me was this: The instructor talked about routine suctioning with a bulb syringe, and how and why it was unnecessary in most cases, what to watch for and be aware of, alternative, less invasive ways of clearing the airway if needed, etc. She talked about the concept of starting to really see babies as aware little people, soaking in their experiences and surroundings and how even minor interventions-like the bulb syringe-might be perceived by an infant. She then used an example that has become a sort or trademark for her classes...she went around the room with a blue ambu-bag half the size of an adult's head, with a plastic tip on it, and got up in everyone's faces with it, using the fast, less than gentle motions that usually accompany routine suctioning with a bulb syringe. You should have seen everyone reactions, flinching, trying to turn their heads to get away, grimace...the exact same reactions babies have. And we weren't even experiencing it being put in our mouths, stimulating our gag reflex. What would that have been like? It put things in perspective, and it made us THINK.<br><br>
We all innately understand the importance of holding our babies, cuddling them, talking softly, touching them tenderly...that they and their brain are rapidly developing...that these times matter, even if they are not consciously or specifically remembered. If welcoming our children gently and making them feel loved, secure, and protected matters...why doesn't the circumcision experience matter? Why do so many parents so quickly brush it aside as inconsequential?<br><br>
Babies are tiny human beings, but they're people too.<br><br>
We all instinctually know this, but IMO, it's time we started recognizing it, and began making our choices accordingly. They deserve nothing less.<br><br>
Jen
 

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Jen, that is fantastic! I would love to have it on my website under the Comments Section. I would keep it the top comment. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin"><br><br>
My site is still being rebuilt. Anyhow, let me know what you think. I'll give you full credit.<br><br>
~Nay
 

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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/clap.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="clap"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/clap.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="clap"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/clap.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="clap">
 

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That is really good and moving!! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="thumbs up">
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I forwarded this to an intactivist midwife and it's sounding like there's a possibility of it being edited and published in a national mag...cross your fingers!<br><br>
Jen
 

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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>sunflower_mommy</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I forwarded this to an intactivist midwife and it's sounding like there's a possibility of it being edited and published in a national mag...cross your fingers!<br><br>
Jen</div>
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Woohoo!! Let me know which one and I'll buy a copy. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br><br>
~Nay
 

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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>sunflower_mommy</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Sure, feel free to use it. I'm flattered. :)<br><br>
What's your website address?<br><br>
Jen</div>
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My anti-circumcision page is here: <a href="http://www.huluhae.com/antonin&anticirc.html" target="_blank">http://www.huluhae.com/antonin&anticirc.html</a><br><br>
I haven't had time to add yours yet. I'm trying to find out how to do something with either html or javascript first. I'll let you know when I've added it. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br><br>
~Nay<br><br>
OT:<br>
If anyone else is an MST3K fan, I have a fansite. <a href="http://www.huluhae.com/nextsundayad.html" target="_blank">http://www.huluhae.com/nextsundayad.html</a> <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1">
 

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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="thumbs up"> One of the best written & most compelling arguments I've read!! Great job getting behind the eyes of the newborn!!
 

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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Minky</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Very touching, do you mind if I print it out to give to a friend.</div>
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I would like to as well if you don't mind. My dh's best friend just found out he and his gf are having a boy. Dh want's to talk with him about circ, but this might be a great ice breaker.
 

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This was on one of my email lists today.<br>
Nurses discuss circ.<br><br>
<<We have a theory about babies after they are circ'd..the poor little guys are<br>
either so sleepy from crying and stress, or else they are very grumpy and<br>
irritable. We use lidocaine for a dorsal block for about 75% of our babies,<br>
we have a few peds that use nothing because they say it doesn't really seem<br>
to help ( I personally think they suffer either way and don't note a<br>
difference with or without lidocaine) Lori<br>
ps..do any of your facilities allow parents to watch the circ being done?? We<br>
get a couple dads who want to be there, but they always end up weak-kneed and<br>
sitting out in the hallway.>><br><br>
__________________________________________________ _____________________<br>
I would rather see them just get it over with. My experience with blocks is that<br>
they don't help. They have to hurt too. I found EMLA okay to use but half the<br>
time the OB doesn't tell you far enough in advance or the occlusive dressing<br>
would come off.<br>
__________________________________________________ ___________<br>
re Emla cream (topical anaesthetic)<br>
> A couple of our docs use it and write orders for us to apply it about an hour<br>
before they come in to do the circ. We found that using the clear occlusive<br>
dressing was ineffective, considering the site of application! A finger cut off<br>
on a nonlatex glove, or a fingercot works nicely though, to keep the cream on<br>
the spot long enough for it to work! The circs still hurt,<br>
> though, I think, and it would be nice if our docs would order Tylenol for<br>
postop pain. It would be still nicer, though if parents would decline having<br>
this unneccessary operation performed....<br>
__________________________________________________ ________-<br>
<< We have baby npo (nothing by mouth)for l hr prior to circ >><br><br>
Just curious, but what is the rationale for this????<br><br>
Jude----------------------------------------------------------<br><br>
<< .do any of your facilities allow parents to watch the circ being done >><br><br>
Absolutely! Why shouldn't those Dad's that insist on it being done get the<br>
privelege of watching the torture!!!!!!!<br><br>
Jill
 
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