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I am really not gifted when it comes to holding and latching my baby. I've tried using the Brest Friend pillow, I've tried all kinds of positions. Two days ago our midwife visited and I had some improvement and got some great latches, but since then it's been devolving. I need some more help:<br><br>
1) I've got a 10lb baby who's pretty long and I can't figure out how to hold him in my arms in the cradle hold so that he's at the right position on the breast and my arm isn't going to collapse after two minutes. He's still floppy but he's learning to hold his own head, so sometimes if I'm not holding him well he'll pull away with his head and then we get into this physical battle which just feels HORRENDOUS. Manhandling your infant's head to get him to feed is just WRONG to my instincts.<br><br>
2) When I can't get latch right, I pull him off. This might happen four or five times during a feeding (and increasingly I can't seem to find the "magic spot" I had when the midwife was here, and I'm forgetting what it felt like anyways). Anyhow, after my letdown he'll pull off because I have a really powerful letdown, and then sometimes I have to pull him off because he's latched wrong and it hurts my nipple (and I'm not willing to play martyr anymore - I need these nipples to last, nature doesn't give me a replacement set). Around the third or fourth or sometimes fifth time he comes off, he refuses flatly to open his mouth and go back on again. I know there's no way he's receiving hindmilk at any point because I can see what's spraying him in the face, and it's definitely foremilk.<br><br>
He simply can't continue to thrive like this on just foremilk. I've been so lucky so far, and had lots of milk, but I've been feeding him through sore nipples and I just don't want to/can't do that anymore. But now that we're trying to get it right, he gets frustrated and won't let me put him back on properly. It's really exhausting.<br><br>
Anyone had this "mini-strike" situation before? What did you do to get baby interested in the boob again when you've been yanking him off all the time? Did you put him down and let him rest for a few minutes and then try again? Any other suggestions?
 

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Have you tried nursing lying down so your LO is lying on top of you? That position saved DS's & my nursing relationship. kellymom has a pretty good description with pictures. (<a href="http://www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/fast-letdown.html" target="_blank">http://www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/fast-letdown.html</a>) Sorry, nak...
 

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I think with one that little I really wouldn't feel comfortable pulling him off as much as you are. That could create some real problems.<br><br>
What are his latch problems? Not covering his lower lip? Sliding down the nipple? or what?<br><br>
I would look at what his specific issue is and work on fixing that WHILE he's nursing without asking him to relatch a bunch of times.<br><br>
Have you tried a boppy? I know different pillows work better for different moms.<br><br>
-Angela
 

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HI Sue,<br>
First of all<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/hug2.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Hug2"><br>
I'm sorry you're having trouble - try to remember that it will all feel better soon!<br><br>
Your nursing relationship with Simon sounds a lot like my experience with Oscar all those years ago.<br><br>
A couple of points to consider:<br><br><b>foremilk is breastmilk</b>! Its not poison - its not really the bad thing that we are sometimes led to believe! <b>Simon will thrive on your milk - regardless of its consistency.</b> He will gradually become a stronger and more efficient nurser and get more hindmilk.<br><br>
Try leaning back on a <b>heap</b> of comfy pillows and feed him so he's working against gravity. I ended up nursing Oscar sitting propped up against the arm of our couch with my feet up and the pillows arranged "just so!"<br><br>
You can also try to hand express (not pump) a little bit before feeding him so your breasts are softer and your let down is less strong<br><br>
relax! breathe, drink tea - all that stuff!<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/loveeyes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Loveeyes">:<br><br>
Aim your nipple so that it is aimed at the top of his mouth, don't focus too much on the whole aereola must be covered by his mouth thing - I found that just frustrated me. My kids ever had my whole aereola in their mouths - nipple suckers all three! I've been nursing for 8 years nonstop - my nipples are fine!<br><br>
Perfect latches only really exist in books - you and Simon need to find a latch that works for you both. Milk for him, minimal pain for you. It will be different for you than from any other nursing pair.<br><br>
Sometimes latching on hurts- even if its a good latch<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/duck.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Duck">: . Try waiting a few moments and see if the pain subsides.<br><br>
I know some of this advice is unconventional but it helped me. You can PM me for my number if you like.<br><br>
Good luck, Hang in there - I promise - It gets easier.<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/winner.jpg" style="border:0px solid;" title="BFSymbol"><br><br>
I'm around today if you'd like to meet up. I live near 1st and Commercial.
 

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I really suggest hiring a lactation consultant Sue.<br>
I had many problems ranging from cracked nipples to a terrible split nipple. I really wish I had hired a LC, and stopped thinking I could handle it all myself.<br>
Did you introduce a bottle? Because it sounds a little like nipple confusion <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/redface.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Embarrassment"> Especially if bfing has gotten worse since the beginning.<br>
You can use regular pillows too, use a boppy (or whatever) as well as all the pillows you need.<br>
I would also suggest NOT reclining back, but sitting straight with lots of pillow's supporting your back, and something under your feet...2 phone books would work.<br>
Before doing bottles, try a nipple shield as a last resort. Only as a last resort, as you will have to wean baby off the shield eventually.<br><br>
Dawn
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
*sigh* I tried hiring a lactation consultant, but the one everyone recommended is too busy and not taking clients right now (that was Renee). I am going to call the public health clinic again on Tuesday, because the nurse who works there is also an LC, and she doesn't work Monday/Friday. (This is where I could get on a soapbox about the government not sufficiently funding breastfeeding support in the community, but I'll restrain myself).<br><br>
Thanks for the reminder about foremilk not being poison. You're so right... and he's growing like a weed so I really will work on just relaxing and not being so stressed out! He had a day or two of cluster feeding last week and I think my nipples got overabused, and I wasn't putting on Lansinoh regularly (a problem I will remedy immediately!).<br><br>
I haven't actually introduced a bottle to him, and I'm going to seriously fight like a demon to prevent doing that until we have our latch sorted out and have been bf'ing happily for at least a week. I do have to return to working at some point this fall, so I need to get him happy with both boob and bottle at some point in the next four months. It's not a fixed date, it's more a case of how long I can make my savings stretch out - as I'm self-employed, the sooner I start applying myself to the business again part-time, the less likely I am to run out of money and have to go back full time.
 

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Hi Sue,<br><br>
You sound very stressed about the situation. I was also very stressed about my bf-ing relationship with Lauren at the beginning. I'm rather lacking in spatial perception, and it was very hard for both of us to learn such an important new skill. I agree that a nursing pillow at the appropriate height is essential. I needed 2 pillows at the beginning.<br><br>
And Lansinoh! All the time!<br><br>
I recall the feeling that dd was not getting enough hindmilk, and I'd obsess about it no end. I agree -if he is thriving on your milk at the moment, that's <b>great</b>! This is a long-term relationship, and things <b>will</b> improve and he <b>will</b> get lots of hindmilk eventually.<br><br>
Dd had a very small mouth and it was also hard for her to cover the area that she was "supposed" to. Like Oscar, she tend to move towards nipple-only nursing even now. Now I just ask her to make her mouth bigger and she does. I'd focus on getting to a point where it works for both of you, instead of worrying about what it is supposed to look like. Trust me, when you're nursing a toddler one day, nursing will look like whatever he wants it to look like!<br><br>
I found that the key for me was to relax into things and have confidence in my growing abilities. When you think about nursing, try not to stress yourself out thinking about how it should look, how you need to introduce a bottle, or you need nursing to be established by a certain deadline so that you can return to work. During the times that you are nursing, try to focus on positive thoughts about growing this new nursing relationship that you have - think of Simon as your newest and best client. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngtongue.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Stick Out Tongue">
 

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My baby refuses to do anything but the cradle hold. I had a plugged duct and tried to get him to do others to help me out. No luck. I think he is resistant to change because he had tongue tie in the beginning and got almost nothing out. Now he gets very upset if he can't get what he wants out immediately. He has no patience for anything that has a learning curve.<br><br>
Mine pulls his head off all the time. Then he gets upset if he can't get himself back on in a second. He fights me when I try to help him, but once he realizes he has the nipple back in his mouth again, he calms down. I know what you mean about the battle.<br><br>
I never have to un-latch mine, but he does it himself. Some feedings it is roughly once per minute, and some it is only 2 or 3 times in a half hour.<br><br>
-----<br><br>
I still see a ton of aureola when he is eating, and I have no nipple pain. And I don't have huge aureolas.<br><br>
------<br><br>
We had tongue tie in the beginning, so he wasn't getting enough from me. I didn't want nipple confusion from a bottle. So, we cup-fed. It was tough, but now he has no problem sucking.<br><br>
-------
 

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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/hug2.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Hug2"> Sue,<br>
not a whole lot to add - it's been a while now!<br><br>
With Emily, she was such a big baby and my arms were so sore after she was born (years later I realized it was b/c I was holding myself up with my arms at one point in labour, for an hour), that I just couldn't lift her up to the breast and that it was causing problems for us.<br><br>
Then my doctor came by, and somehow suggested supporting her on my lap+pillow, and just dropping the breast into her mouth. somehow that worked better for me. I also tended to sit cross-legged with a big fat pillow in my lap.<br><br>
I have definitely heard that lying down on your back with baby on top of you may be helpful for overactive letdown and I wish I'd known about it to try it with Emily... the nurses insisted it wasn't possible for a baby to choke on my milk, but I knew they were wrong because she *was* coughing and spluttering whenever letdown started. And it would shoot halfway across the room!<br><br>
With Calvin, I struggled with his latch until the day he weaned. Over 2 1/2 yrs. He wouldn't imitate anything I did, so doing the "wide open mouth" myself didn't work. I always had to roll his lower lip out to cover more of the areola, and he didn't mind that at all.<br><br>
Sue it is hard. But once you figure out something that works for you, it will get easier...<br><br>
Good luck to you getting the help you need...<br><br>
-Lori
 

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nak<br>
We use a boppy and it has saved us! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"> I sit cross-legged on the couch, lay him on his side on the boppy, and hold my breast in one hand. The other hand goes behind his head to direct his latch. That way I don't have to hold up his weight because the boppy does it for me. Also be sure to point your nipple toward to roof of his mouth to help ease sore nipples. Keep up the good work!
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>dawncayden</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9004235"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I really suggest hiring a lactation consultant Sue.</div>
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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/yeahthat.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="yeah that">: Given the difficulties that you have been having, your midwife may not have enough experience and professional skill to help you since she in not a LC. If you can't find anyone locally, I recommend one that I consulted by phone, she is great (but in based in Vermont). I'll PM you her info. Hang in there <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hug"> .
 

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My boppy was/is a life saver! I've never tried a 'breast friend' pillow, so I don't really know what the differences are... but yeah. I prefer to nurse in my glider (mission style), and find that its easiest (and always has been), if I prop the boppy (and thus DS) up, just a TAD. I'm talking centimeters/inches. Not a lot, just a little, its like tucking the one side down under the arm rest and resting the other side ontop of it, KWIM?<br><br>
DS sometimes does the whole scream/flex back thing still, and he did it a TON when he was newborn. I rememeber crying as I tried and tried to get him latched on 'right' for the first couple weeks.... it sometimes took 30-60minutes just to get him to latch! Keep at it... try not to take him off yourself, so much as just shift your nipple around in his mouth and see if you can get it to feel better. <i>DON'T</i> pay attention to things that say it should look like A or B or C... who CARES what it looks like! As long as its not painful to you, its fine!!
 

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I have bf all our kids. Am currently bfing a 13 week old.<br><br>
I don't bf according to whats proper so says my mw. I dont have the nipple in the mouth right, nor do i get enough of it in, I dont support the baby tummy to tummy the list goes on. She got rather frustrated with me.<br><br>
But whats proper is not comfortable for me.<br><br>
But being I have bf all my kids and so long with each of them that she said that the current baby weight gain was great she said why fix whats not broke.<br><br>
my nipples always seem to hurt for a week or two than the pain is gone.<br><br>
All of this to say I don't think the proper way to nurse works well for everyone.<br><br>
So relax and just nurse the baby. Except of course that doesnt help with your pain <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hug">
 

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First of all: <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hug"> Sue! and <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hug"> Simon!<br><br>
Sounds like you're having a rough time. Hannah got only foremilk the first little while, and look how she's grown! Yep, those poops will look an amazing fluorescent green, but he'll grow...<br><br>
Can I bring by a nursing foot stool that helped me in my positioning as well? I'll call you when I have a chance tomorrow. Many hugs your way.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>indigo_sue</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9003838"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I've tried all kinds of positions.</div>
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What if you went to an alien world, and the aliens all had a very formal song they needed to sing before meals? You didn't speak the language and couldn't communicate, so you couldn't eat. They felt sorry for you, so every day they tried a different song. But you just got more confused. If they stuck to the same song, then after a few days you would start to learn it, and after a while, you would know it by heart. kwim?<br><br>
I would work on ONE position, and get that to work for both of you. Then when you are experts, add another position. Then another. Your DC has to learn 12 things at one time, if you change position, instead of just one or two.<br><br>
When DS was born I tried all sorts of positions. What I wanted was to find a position that worked perfectly. Bad idea. The magical instantaneous natural latching babies are rare, imo. With DD I kept two one positon- lying sideways on a flat mattress. Yes, that meant we couldn't bf in public for the first two weeks (until we added the sitting in a chair with breast feeding pillow position), but I wasn't ready for that anyway. We slowly added positions as she and I became confident in what we were doing.<br><br>
If you can't get a lactation consultant, could you actually walk into your local clinic, and ask someone with bf experience to help you?
 

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This Clinic <a href="http://www.breastfeedingclinic.com" target="_blank">www.breastfeedingclinic.com</a> (sorry my linky thing won't work) is amazing, you just need a referral from your midwife. I would have given up nursing DS if it wasn't for Dr. Livingstone.
 

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Hi Sue,<br>
so sorry you're having difficulties!! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hug"> hang in there, it does get easier!!<br><br>
Have you ruled out thrush? I had sore nipples for the first nine months with my dd, and it wasn't until I dealt with that that the pain went away.<br><br>
If the pain shoots into your chest wall from your nipple...<br>
If the pain feels like glass in your breast for the first few minutes of nursing and then goes away...<br>
If your nipple and areola are red, shiny, flaky, bumpy (not your usual bumps, but new, usually reddish bumps), itchy, burning, or raw...<br>
If your baby has white patches in his mouth that don't come off it you gently scrape them away...<br>
If you have pain but no visible symptoms in you or your baby...<br>
If it seems that you are latching "correctly" but it still hurts after a few weeks postpartum...<br><br>
you may have thrush!! For me, the solution was washing my bra a little more frequently, cutting out sugar, alcohol, refined carbs from my diet until the candida was cleared from my body, and then being very careful with these things, and using gentian violet for 3 days -- cured!! pain free nursing for the first time in 9 months!!<br><br>
Other symptoms that you may have thrush, and/or a general overload of candida albicans (the bacteria that causes thrush) in your system, is gassiness, headaches and foggy brain, bloating, itchy rectum, vaginal yeast infections, itchy skin, craving sugar, ummm....<br><br>
there are more symptoms and solutions on Dr. Jack Newman's website, and probably on Kellymom too. google Jack's website, then do a search for thrush, and see if you think that might be the problem.<br><br>
good luck, and keep asking for help!!!!!!!
 

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Keep with it mama! My little one didn't "get it" until she was 7-8 weeks old. My nipples were so sore I thought for sure I had thrush or something...I didn't. And nursing doesn't hurt anymore, in fact it is the best part of my day. I have letdown that sprays everywhere too. I always have a cloth ready to stiffle the spray should my babe pull off. Spraying her in the face only insults her and she'll refuse to nurse. The best advice I received was to nurse lying down (which I didn't get the hang of until 7 weeks) or to have plenty of firm pillows which would bring her up to breast level...just like she would be if we were lying down. That way the milk can pool in her lower cheek and she can swallow at her own pace. The latching and relatching definitely causes sore nipples...but in a few more weeks you and your babe will be experts.<br><br>
I saw 4 different LCs. I received a lot of advice about "the right way" to do things. Truthfully, just keep trying. Try lots of different things and then in a few days go back and try them again if nothing is working the first time around...something will click at some point.
 

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You're right. You want a good latch and you shouldn't have to have sore nipples.<br><br>
Pulling him off a lot when he gets lazy with the latch is not a big deal at all, no lazy latching! but he is getting annoyed, because you aren't letting him do that.<br><br>
Babies like things just *so* before you were letting him get lazy and now you aren't, which is annoying him <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"><br><br>
Have him open his mouth REALLY WIDE, open your mouth REALLY WIDE and see if he does it, or tell him "Do this *OPEN MOUTH HUGE* usually they will "copy mommy" at that age<br><br>
Once he opens his mouth really huge *shove* your breast in his mouth. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"> see if that helps.
 

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Hugs, Sue. I hear your frustration. Hang in there. Be gentle with yourself. If you are really concerned about the foremilk/hindmilk thing, try hand expressing a bit first.<br><br>
Some babies go on/off on their own (my dd1 did and I couldn't understand it, and actually switched to 50/50 bottle because I found it so stressful, and I thought I wasn't doing it right...)<br><br>
I think lying down would be a great thing to learn...and it is tricky to bf a new new baby - it gets easier as they get stronger.<br><br>
Try to get out a bit and maybe just try nursing at the park - away from the tension of <i>trying so hard to get comfy</i>...could that work? Just another idea.
 
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