Banishing Babies?

I had nearly the exact experience at a group I attended. I was horrified that occasional not-too-loud noises from my babe were making it so hard for others to hear, and that we were disrupting others. I dwelled on it for a while, and talked to a lot of other people about it. I was and am so very sad that mothers and their babies are not welcome in certain situations.

It was my entry into the real world, I suppose. Since then, I my dd has grown older (she is now 17 months) and I take it for granted that we cannot attend a lot of functions or things, now that she is pretty loud, and running around like she is I chase her a lot.

The last time I went to church was on Easter Sunday. She got "loose" and ran up to the pulpit! I was mortified, but luckily, it got a lot of chuckles.

It's a sad product of our culture, I suppose. We hear loud bass booming from cars, people who seem to think it's okay to lay on their horn for random reasons, loud stereos blasting from people's homes, dogs that bark all day and night, pumped up noise-making exhaust systems, and yet, the happy sound of a babe just grates on some people's nerves.

I don't get it either.

I have complained about this myself. Adults can be coughing, laughing too loud, talking too loud, fussing with noisy stuff in their purse, have cell phones ringing, etc., but if a baby dares to make a peep, everyone starts glaring.

When ds was 10 months old my mom and I were sitting in a very busy coffee shop. (It was an outdoor mall and it had started raining, so the place was busy.) A guy came in, sat down at the table next to us, and proceeded to begin reading. The espresso machine was blaring away, the grinders going, a big table of about 6 women next to us were laughing and whooping it up. Ds was holding a little paper cup and occassionaly banging it on the table, which would make him laugh. The guy came over and asked me to make ds stop banging the cup. When I joked that he was 10 months old and it might be hard to tell him to stop, he told me to take it away from him. I very politely said no, that he wasn't making any more noise than anyone else in there. The guy got totally pissed, complaining about he was trying to read and it was distracting him. I suggested a library, and he rolled his eyes at me, huffed and puffed, and finally slammed all his stuff together and stormed out of there, glaring at me the whole time.

I don't think it's that people hate kids necessarily, but I think that they don't believe that they deserve the same respect as adults. This guy didn't tell the women to quiet down their laughing. He didn't ask the employee to stop using the espresso machine. He certainly didn't decide that it was just too noisy to read and to do something else. He decided that the baby had to have his toy taken away to accomodate him.

I doubt the lady at the church would have asked an adult who was coughing the whole time to leave because she couldn't hear.

A couple of years ago, my church had a guest speaker from an organization that brings food to starving people. During his sermon, a baby suddenly shouted happily, and her parents got nervous and were obviously thinking about whether to take her outside. The speaker smiled and said something like, "I have been to orphanages where the babies are totally silent. It's because they have learned, in their short lives, that when they cry nobody will come to help them. When I hear a child cry out, I don't think of it as a disruption. I think, How wonderful it is that that child can use her voice and know she will be heard by people who love and care for her!" Too bad more church folk don't see it that way.

I think the best rule of thumb is to assume that if someone is being disturbed enough to come and speak to you about it, then the child's noise really is a disruption (to that person) and it's polite to move away. But I agree, it's sad that so many people seem to find child sounds so much more disturbing than other sounds of equal volume.

I usually just ignore the nasty looks. One sad thing about our current church is that they age-segregate. Families are only together during the initial worship songs, and then all the children are run out. We'd really prefer a church more open to family worship through the whole service.

But anyway, it always makes me so mad when people find a happy baby too "disturbing" for them to hear the sermon. I remember even hearing a teaching program on the radio, and you could hear *very faint* occasional baby burbles, not screaming, in the background. The preacher stopped his sermon, and spoke directly to the mother, telling her to remove the baby to the nursery. I blushed for that poor woman. Imagine the humiliation. The pastor at our church did that to me once, too. Ugh.
At our old church, which we very much loved, they had Sunday School and a nursery, but the nursery was built just off the sanctuary, so if I needed to nurse, I could still hear the sermon and see everything that was going on through the window. And the pastor had no problem with happy babies in the service, and we never had any comments about it, even when Asrat was babbling away at the people in the seats behind us. I wish we still went there!

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Oceanbaby - I remember you posting about this. My kids are always noisy and I think of your story whenever I am in a coffee shop and I can see people are trying to read or what have you. I think "Go to a library or stay home where you can control your environment (unless you have kids then you might as well stay )". I was at one just the other day and I know we were bothering several people but not one had the nerve to say anything to us. It is a public place and my son and I have every right to be there as they do. As for church or meetings, I am selective about where I go. Where I go, he goes! If he isn't welcome, then neither am I. If I get there and it is not a good place for him, we leave.

I also agree with OB that is is about who they can control. They would never tell a loud table of women to lower their voices, the women would tell to off and ignore the request. But you are supposed to make a baby cry to make this guy happy WTF! I was happy you stood up to him for your baby. More people should put the baby first not above some strangers feeling.

I don't really care when people are annoyed with the noise my kids make. I care that they are happy and safe.

Doreen

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People don't have the courage to confront the others, even if they're sitting there brooding about it! - but they will confront a mother and her child. Kinda shows where moms and babes fall on the pecking order - or that the complainers know that they'll get off without a confrontation because most moms feel humiliated and do whatever it takes to appease the complainer. We are so conditioned to feel ... what? what is it? - like we're a pain in the world's behind just because we have children and we have to go around feeling apologetic about it?

you know, it always makes me angry to hear of yet another church or churchgoer that is unwilling to accept the presence of a child. i'm not christian, but it makes me so angry that people can be so seemingly hypocritical. sure, they can be a jerk 24/7 but as long as they go to church they're sure they'll get into heaven.

ok, rant over.

oh wait, no, it's not over. the whole thing about noisy adults not putting up with happy baby noises? i've totally been there. there are so many people who think it's perfectly ok to be rude, obnoxious, loud, boisterous, etc constantly, but heaven forbid a child coo or even fuss quietly.

one more thing, and i guess this entire issue is rant-worthy: this is a little off-topic, but still along the lines of banishing babies... if you participate in the CalWORKS program (i.e., the welfare program), BOTH adults need to attend the meetings ("workshops") ~ the SAME meetings, SAME time, SAME day ~ with NO exceptions, or at least very few, children are forbidden, and childcare is not provided.

the first time i ever went to one of those meetings, i brought our son with us. duh, he's part of the family, and he's a really well-behaved little guy (or at least was at the time :LOL). i had him in his stroller well set-up with books, toys, sippy cups full of drinks, fresh fruit and crackers, etc. when it came time for us to go into the meeting, one of the social workers came out and forcefully pulled us aside and told us we absolutely could NOT bring him in with us. i asked them why and they said because that's the rule, and "didn't you see that on the forms we sent you?" i said, "no....." (ok, i had, but come on, i was struck by complete suprise and was getting angry at the way the worker was treating us) ~ the worker said, "well we don't provide childcare. you guys can't come in with him. one or the other of you has to leave, drop him off somewhere, then come back for the workshop." so i explained how incredibly stupid that was, and that we had no place to just "drop him off" and even if we did, it would take until the workshop was over to take him there because we don't have a car, so it wasn't like we could just zoom off and leave him "somewhere" and then zoom back. so then i had to listen to the social worker explain that childcare isn't provided and that we should have thought of that before we came, and that if we didn't hurry up and figure out what we were going to do, we weren't going to be eligible for assistance (nevermind that at the time we had NO money and NO food). FINALLY a worker came in and told us that one of us could watch our son during that day's workshop, and then come in during the next workshop, but that was our only option. they were so mean about it and treated us like we were stupid. there was absolutely no reason for him to not be in with us, either, it's like they just wanted to make life a little bit harder for the people with hardships.

oh, and in that same CalWORKS office, the restroom with the baby changing station is up two flights of stairs (and the elevator is restricted to handicap-only use). so if you walk the couple of miles there with your baby in a stroller (as i have had to do) and then have to change him when you get there, you either have to do it on the first floor in the baby's stroller (which is impossible for a larger baby), take them out and do it on the floor in the lobby area (which isn't allowed), take them outside and do it on the ground (which is just gross), or take them out of the stroller, fold up the stroller, and carry baby and paperwork and diaperbag and stroller up the two flights of stairs just to change them. ARGH! it was so poorly planned and the people who work there are so disrespectful toward the ones they're supposed to be "helping."

i hate how our society is so family-unfriendly.

I'm so sorry all of you ladies have had such horrible experiences at church!

Church of all places should be the one place that babies are most accepted!

I have had very very positive experiences at church. We all sit together as a family for the service. There is a mother's lounge where we can nurse in comfy chairs (or you can stay in the service if you prefer!)...there is a speaker in there so you can hear the sound from the chapel so you don't miss anything.

We have tons of young families, and we are probably a lot more noisy than most churches, but I have never gotten a dirty look for my children being noisy. In fact, when I have had my hands full, its not uncommon for others without children to come over and sit with us and help with the kids...play patty cake or help the draw a picture on some paper to help keep them relatively quiet.

We have Sunday school classes after the service, and there is a nursery for children 18 months-3 years. Moms are welcome to stay in the nursery if they need to to help get their child used to going to nursery. After age 3 there are Sunday school classes for the children too.

I just think that it is so sad that the leaders of other congregations don't see what a blessing it is to have young and growing families. You would think that church of all places would be the most family friendly.

Christina