[Piglet68]

As a baby, we let DD follow her own rhythm. She was happy when awake, and when tired she would nurse to sleep without any trouble. It wasn't always when *I'd* like her to go to bed, but it was fairly consistent over the first year of her life, as were her naps.

At one year her bedtime dropped dramatically earlier, her naps to one a day and long. I was a happy camper!

But lately (last few weeks) I've noticed a change. She's getting harder to get to sleep. She'll be almost out, then suddenly sit up and want to play. Only it's not like when she was a little baby; now I can see she is really tired and when she plays she's emotional and crabby. So I discovered by accident that if I take her to bed and just lie with her and nurse her (I was so tired one day I decided I'd be happier lying down, even if she wasn't sleeping), she fusses for a little while, pops on and off the breast, but eventually she falls asleep. Less than 30 minutes and no real crying, just a bit of fussing.

I've decided I'd like to start doing this at the same time every night because her bedtimes have become erratic lately and I really feel like she's *ready* for sleep at a certain time, but makes herself stay up. My DH is teasing me, saying I'm "sleep training" when I was so vocally and staunchly against it. My response is that I still believe that little babies need to establish a rhythm without interference, but it seems to make sense to me that as toddlers, they might like some predictability to their routine. My hope is that if I keep doing this, she'll fall asleep easier and easier until she's pretty consistent at the same time each night.

I'd like some feedback: do you think this is okay? Do you think it is "not following her cues"? Anybody tried something like this?

TIA.

 

[PumpkinSeeds]

yes, agree with you. My ds does (did) the same thing. Before you know it, they're up till 11pm everynight, waking early and cranky all day.

We have a bedtime routine. Eat, bathe, read books, lights out. The process can take 1 hour, or it can take 3 hours, depending on many factors like how long or how late the nap was, activity level during the day, etc. (ie, if he napped really well, then he plays longer in the bath and we read more books, if he is a crank monster, then quick bath and two books)

While I think some babes can regulate their sleep, I know from experience my ds *needs* to know that bedtime is coming soon. He has an amazing ability to keep himself up. Before we did routines, he was sleeping 7-8 hours a night and a 2 hour nap.

Now he sleeps 10-11 hours a night and a 1.5 hour nap. AND WHAT a difference in behaviour too, much more mellow (he's very spirited).

Now, I am SO NOT one of those kind of people who likes to control others, and I was very reluctant to get started with a bedtime routine and a set bedtime somewhere between 7:30-9pm, but my ds somehow needed that from me.

Also, now that we've been doing this routine for some time, I notice now that on the days when we get off our schedule and 7 pm rolls around, my ds starts gettting cranky, rubbing his eyes, and whiney.

 

[indiegirl]

Oh man, if that is sleep training...

Here's the thing--I think you have to help train your kids to go to sleep. It's a very important skill. Crying it out isn't the only way to sleep train. What you are doing is a sensitive approach to winding down. She may fuss, but you are right there comforting and supporting her.

Winding down is hard. It can be emotional. It's okay.

If it were me, I would do this laying down thing for awhie until you have a groove with it. Then I would modify it even further to get her to transition to doing it on her own. Somehow, somday, she will be sleeping on her own. I know from experience that opportunities present themselves and it is important to really hone in on cues at the right time or else they will be hard to recreate.

I'm specifically thinking of when we transitioned V into her own bed. She was just a little younger than I would have expected her to be successful (15 mo), but it really was the right time and had we waited, she would have had a much more difficult time.

Also, I moved Z into her own sleeping arrangement (near my bed) for her initial evening sleep at age 3 or 4 months. It was young, but had I waited until she was older, I would have had to lay down with her every night--and that isn't something I wanted to do because I get tired when I lay down and I do a lot of work at night.

Anyway, you are responding to her cues so there.

 

[Potty Diva]

I think sometimes as parents we need to observed our children and help them follow their bodies cues. If your little one is irritable and crabby, and you realize it's because she is tired, then I think it is perfectly ok to help her find sleep. Nursing to sleep seems to be the gentlest way to go about this.

I agree infants need to find a sleep rythm, but believe toddlers, preschoolers, etc as well as adults need to do this to. I don't think the need for a natural sleep pattern ends after infanthood.

Kailey is still on her own schedule. We tried a set bedtime, but there were nights when she wasn't tired at her designated bedtime. This depends on the kind of day we had and how active we are. She was more willing to sleep on our active days (of course).

So we went back to letting her decide when she was tired and wanted to sleep. Of course on nights when she was granky and couldn't find sleep, rocking and nursing were a big help.

I think you are doing a great job by listening to your child's sleep cues.

OT, kinda~ Whenever I see you name I remember back to when you were newly pregnant. It seems so long ago...

 

[justmama]

Like you, I believe that children need to set their own schedules for each day and parents need to make them work for the family. some children are very good at regulating their needs and setting a schedule that meets all needs and others are not. For example, my dd has always been a "difficult" sleeper. She's 38 months now and if I would let her, she would stay up until 11:30 or 12 every night and not nap. But then she would crash at 4pm and sleep 3 hours and be up all night again. This would alternate for days with no nap and then a crash at 4pm and she would be miserable. I know because we are recently coming off a period like that! UGH! So I also beleive that parents of children like this need to help their children to find and keep that rhythm. My daughter was never one to know she was tired and ask for bed. I need to enforce a bedtime and a schedule. Our routine goes as follows:

dinner around 5:30 or 6pm
quiet playtime with mummy's full attention until 7pm
warm relaxing lavendar bath at 7pm
dress in jammies, brush teeth, grab sippy of soymilk around 7:30
quiet playtime
snuggletime in bed or our special snuggle chair while drinking milk she should have drank at 7:30 at around 8pm
read one book that she picks out at 8:30pm
as soon as book is done we turn on music and I sing her one song while rubbing her back and then it's lights out.
This is the routine we kinda fell into by accident whiel I was doing everything in my power to tire her out during the day and get her to bed at a decent hour at night. It seems to work for us. Naptimes are still a struggle. She does need one to make it through the day(otherwise she gets cranky at 2pm or 3pm and is conked out in the car or in the sling at 4pm) as her sweet self and she hates to take one. Sometimes I can get her to sleep if I sling her down but she really does need to wind down with a long routine at night to do it by herself. When we go on vacations or have a late night doing something and her routine is broken, we resort to slinging down, though it is rough on my back. If you read the toddlerwearing post, you will know that I am a champion slinger still!
Best of luck on this. Bedtimes are always a rough thing to adjust.
Meg

 

[Geofizz]

Hey fellow post doc!

Your DD is just a bit older than mine. We stick to a strict bedtime routine without a strict time to start it. I don't see it as sleep training at all, just giving DD a set of clear signals that it's time to wind down for sleep. If fact, I see it as the most fair thing to do for her. Once she starts acting tired, we go through a series of steps to tell her it's time to settle down and go to sleep.

At this age, we're finding that actions communicate much more clearly than words. So, we put on a double diaper and a sleeper, Karen picks out a few books, we brush teeth and read to music. When she's calm and sleepy (sometimes she starts to fuss) we turn out the light and nurse to sleep.

It took a LONG TIME for her to get into the groove of the routine, but now that we do it, she does slow down and start to become more still very quickly once we start the routine.

On evenings that we skip the routine, like she falls asleep in the carseat on the way home from somewhere or she's super, super tired and I just skip the stories, the night tends to go quite badly. She behaves as if she doesn't realize it's night time at all, becoming fully awake when she wakes in the middle of the night instead of just rolling over for a nurse or cuddle.

So anyways, we follow her cues when she's tired and ready for bed (generally anywhere from 6:30-9:30) then we give her cues to start slowing down and calming down for sleep.

 

[mirlee]

Even when Sam was little and slept with us we has a small routine that we followed.

Whe he was little the routine was a nice warm bath, followed by a nice little drying off time where we talked to him and played with his nose, toes, fingers or whatever that would get him to smile, we would put on a nice mellow CD and then he would nurse to sleep.

This routine really helped when we were ready to transition to his own room. We now have our warm bath, a nice drying off time, put on the same CD he has been listening to since birth, snuggle him into bed, and we read two stories, one longish one and one short one. Sometimes I stay in the room with him for one complete song on the CD and he will want his hair stroked, but he usually goes out nicely then.

I think a routine is good and important. It helps the child know what is expected of them and also helps them wind down from the day. The routine sometimes gets adjusted, like when we are travelling, but for the most part is the same everyday. We tend to start the routine about the same time everyday as well.

 

[TEAK's Mom]

Until very recently, we has a routine very much like your, Piglet68. The main difference was that we had a window of time between 7:30 and 9:00 that we started. Dd gets a certain look when bed is a possibility. If we miss it, it takes 30-60 minutes for that look to come back.

In the past few weeks, we have seen one major change to the bedtime routine: dd (18 months) is starting to initiate it. She takes me by the hand and says, "go to bed." We go in together and nurse and cuddle until she's out. Then, we join her when we're ready to sleep.

So, I think you're on a good track. My dd has positive sleep associations and is learning to follow her own cues.

 

[PUPPYLUV]

I think there is a big difference between CIO/ harsh sleep training and having a bed time routine. We've established a routine that really helps dd wind down, with a window of time at night when it might begin. Occasionally at the beginning there was a little fussing, but never any really crying, and never without me. Now she sleeps much better at night and falls asleep without a fuss.

You know your baby the best. If a routine is going to help both of you at bedtime, I say go for it.

 

[nuggetsmom]

For us the bedtime routine (which I don't think is sleep training at all) is very mportant. If we get out of it and DD goes to bed late for a couple of nights her world becomes very hard on her. It is so hard to live if you are tired KWIM.
But I think toddlers don't understand that if they don't go to bed, they will be tired. I know DD can stay up till 11 or so, but she is tired at 8 and will often fall asleep at 8:30 or 9. And I do the routine (bath, teeth, reading) and then lay down with her and after a while if she seems settled I will say "shall I check on you in a few minutes" and she says OK, and I go out and she falls asleep. She actually falls asleep sooner when I do that than if I stay. No crying at all here, ever. I do check in on her and give her another kiss. Not that it was that easy to get to this point mind you.

Anyway, it is not sleep training, just helping your toddler get to bed at a time that she is sleepy. I think that is really important.

Good luck

PS no longer a post doc!