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This is complex stuff to put into words but I think it's really important and we need to talk about it. I'm also interested to hear the POV from those outside my own country <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br><br>
Someone recently interpreted my own knowledge about birth and how I feel about being in control of my own birthing destiny as anti-midwifery - it was a hb MW btw. This really shocked me as she basically said to me that she wouldn't want a client with my knowledge. So is there a knowledge level I’m “allowed” to have as a consumer then? Does it need to be vetted by careproviders to make sure they don’t feel threatened or in danger of you questioning their advice? (Ahem it made me cross…)<br><br>
That aside, what it really sparked for me was how little we are truly able to remove ourselves from the patriarchy. What I mean, in case that word frightens you, is that we remove ourselves from the hospital system because of it’s blatantly anti-woman policies where the power play is pretty clear and the only power women truly have is to remove themselves or not attend until they’re in really strong labour thus reducing the time most interventions can occur. But what we forget is that we are still taking our socialised behaviours and ideas into our homes when we birth and so are our CPs. So while I and a MW may be socialised to be women, once I employ that MW she is in a position of power over me as my CP unless she very clearly chooses to not exert that power. This isn’t necessarily all about the issues of the individual CP because even I as a consumer, Everywoman if you like, take the same issues of being in a subordinate role to a CP thus supplying one half of that dynamic even if a MW doesn’t wish it. We don’t really have models in our culture for truly equal partnerships since the whole caboodle is based on supporting and furthering inequalities at every level.<br><br>
I don’t know if it’s the current anti-hb/midwifery climate or if the cases I see around me of MWs dumping clients or otherwise behaving poorly have always occurred and we’ve just never had a national forum in which to view it before. It deeply concerns me though and on some levels it feels like a greater betrayal than that of the hospy/BC/private surgeon because the basis of the model is to be “with woman” not “on top of woman” “in charge of woman” or “only taking woman on if she doesn’t threaten power dynamic”.<br><br>
Have you concerns like these about midwifery? The silence around MW behaviour is deafening and yet to stay quiet and only whisper our experiences to our nearest and dearest means we’re holding surgeons to a higher standard than MWs. This lack of transparency makes for danger to women and babies. As you know, possibly the LAST thing I am is anti-midwifery! I am however deeply opposed to that which endangers women and as a consumer I don’t see it as in anyone’s best interests for us to be silent when MWs are harmful or neglectful in their dealings with us. Surely by demanding straight dealings and high standards of practice and ethical behaviour we are strengthening midwifery’s capacity to weather the current storms? Hiding extremes like malpractice or outright abuse will only come back to bite us at a later date as women are hurt because we didn’t speak out about MWs who don’t behave as well as they might.<br><br>
In some ways because of the nature of the relationship women are more vulnerable with midwifery. It’s more personality dependant and relies more on ethical behaviour than birthing in a hospital. Hospitals are largely faceless, with protocols devised by equally faceless people and enforced by strangers. You also know, if you do your research, what you’re potentially getting into if you go to one. But with midwifery, and that’s BC or hb, we are often lulled into a false sense of security because we think we’re getting something that we’re not always getting at all. I see a deep sense of betrayal in traumatised BC birthing mamas because they trusted that the BC would provide them with a certain experience or at the very least, respect and dignity should interventions become necessary. I don’t see a culture of nurture and support automatically provided to hb mamas who TF. CPs often walk away pretty smartly while the women are still struggling emotionally to deal with their experience either seeing it as their responsibility having now ended or not wanting to honestly discuss the TF or decisions/events that led to it. It must be acknowledged that being a MW has some complex aspects to it. A petrol pump attendant having a bad day might splash your shoes with petrol but a MW having a bad day through illness, massive stress or other personal issues tipped off in the emotive time of labour can make decisions that lead to massive trauma occurring for that client. Even a TF for the best possible reasons can be painful and difficult but when the decisions were clouded by those personal issues many MWs seem unwilling to really own their own part in that. (I talk to lots of hb mamas remember!) Something valuable we learnt from South Africa’s truth and reconciliation work is that people don’t always seek to blame, they just need to be heard and have that truth and experience honoured in the telling. Women sometimes struggle with that as CPs are unwilling to listen to that which they interpret as somehow indicting their practice or behaviour.<br><br>
How do we strengthen hb/midwifery without being fearless in our critiquing of the behaviour or MWs and consumers alike?
 

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oh, Janet, I have so much to say on this (can you believe that?). So many good points - and so much to work on, I agree.<br><br>
I will post more when I'm not pressed for time to spend with my love after being gone all day at appointments. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love">
 

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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lurk.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lurk">:
 

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Wow!<br>
I am anxiously awaiting the discussion here. I'm not a MW, but a doula, and I see this happening some in the community. I'd like to have this rattle around a while before I respond......
 

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Janet,<br><br>
I hear what you're saying!<br><br>
I had my first at a mw center in Japan. It was basically her house and she had her asst mws. In hindsight (after my 2nd birth here) my mw in Japan was amazing!!!!<br>
She made me see that it doesn't matter WHO attends the birth as long as they let you do your thing and don't get in the way (unless absolutely necessary)<br>
she was just sort of in the wings, silently paying appearances every few hours and then gently whispering encouragement to me as I entered my 3rd hour of pushing.....<br>
that's the kind of mw care I would like to see here!<br>
my mw here at my 2nd (HB) were quite different...<br>
I didn't call them until the 11th hour because I just wanted my own space and I knew I was the one who had to get the baby out and no one else....my dh and my mom were there providing hands to crush....<br>
but when the mw did arrive they wanted to turn on the lights and sort of take charge of the situation and I didn't really like that...<br><br>
I mean I think HB midwives are good in the sense that if we had only the hospital or freebirth I think even less women would birth at home.....<br>
but having experienced the higher end of quality care in Japan I think there is a lot to be improved upon....<br><br>
and I think you hit upon a very valid point...<br>
I also am not so quick to talk negatively about my mw here because I don't want to make an already dire situation even worse...<br>
but when it comes down to it, I feel they are a lesser of 2 evils and that's pretty sad if you think about it...<br>
great post Janet.<br><br>
Jill
 

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Wow...just...wow. This totally rings my bells...there's alot to what Janet is saying...thank you, Janet for articulating such important points and ideas.<br><br>
I have to say...I have a gut feeling that the points made in the OP, is a basis for amazing things to come.<br><br>
J.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks everyone. It's been rattling around in my head for a while too <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1"> So what do we think?
 

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A related question is, How do we look at midwifery critically without weakening it politically?<br><br>
I think part of the answer is that it has to be powered from the inside, outside of the spotlight of the general public. Midwifery Today has been very good about supporting this conversation, but what they publish is dependant on what's submitted, and the few midwives who are looking at these issues are struggling with the fear of becoming pariahs within their own subculture. I'm not sure how that's going to change. Maybe that's where people like us -- who are friendly to the subculture, on the fringes of it, but not so reliant on it that this fear prevents them from speaking out -- fit into the picture.<br><br>
And then, many midwives are complacent. It really has not occured to them that there is anything that needs to change about their own behavior. They believe their own myths. Part of the problem here is that, first, there is a cultural taboo against women complaining about their birth experiences and blaming their birth attendants. It's the birthing woman who is always wrong. She is not in tune enough with her body, she was "fighting" the contractions, she is needy, "all that matters is a healthy baby", etc. Second, women themselves are not inclined to speak critically about their experiences, especially in the first several weeks after the birth. They are so emotionally vulnerable at that time, and so are desperate to find and focus on the good in it. And that's when midwives usually have their last postpartum contact with their clients.<br><br>
Even after I finally was able to be honest with myself about my traumatic birth, at about a year postpartum (which is a common length of time for that to be able to happen,) I didn't want to talk to the midwife about it. I was scared about what her reaction would be, enough so that even though I knew my silence would be perceived as a condoning of her practices, I still couldn't bring myself to confront her. It was only with the encouragement of my new midwife, who felt it would help me to let go of the negativity surrounding the experience, that I said anything. And my fears were realized -- she was sorry that I had bad feelings about the birth, but would not take responsibility for what I saw as her part in it. I hate to say it, but I hear this sort of thing a lot from UCers. They feel they've been betrayed, and aren't able to trust again. They turn to UC not because they believe in it in itself, but because they have no other options left, and that to me is a scary and very sad thing.<br><br>
Knowing that, and judging by my own extreme resistance to letting her know my true feelings, I have to think that there are other women she has not heard from (and in fact, my new midwife confirmed that, confiding that she had had many clients transfer to her with similar stories.) If in her mind it's an isolated incident, then, it's much easier to write off as the problem being with *me*.<br><br>
So I think a major part of the problem is that midwives are not getting the feedback they need to in order to understand how their actions affect their clients, and there is no forum for this, really. Midwives have peer review, but there again is the problem of fear of being rejected for speaking one's truth. I know that even among themselves, midwives don't say what they're really thinking about others' practices.<br><br>
What I would like to see is some kind of anonymous forum that all midwives are encouraged to review. By membership, possibly, to help it remain a constructive place, for the midwives and their clients, rather than something to be used against the midwifery movement. Anonymous so that fears of hurting feelings or being rejected or being shamed would not keep us lying to each other and to ourselves. That every birthing woman would be told about and encouraged to participate in after some period of internal processing, with a questionnaire to be filled out and posted, and a forum for both midwives and clients to discuss the issues that come up through them. We have internet discussion forums, but nothing dedicated just to this, nothing centralized, so the stories are all spread out and haphazard (when they're allowed at all.)<br><br>
Obviously this is something that would make sense for *any* client-provider service. It might be too much to hope that most hospital workers would recognize value in such a thing, though I'd like to find I'm wrong. Midwifery, though, being about being woman-centered and facilitating a holistic and emotionally satisfying experience, seems like it should be prime for accepting and embracing something like this into its practice.
 

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Wow, its so wonderful to read this thread (though it took a while <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1"> )<br><br>
My main thought about it is that choosing a MW is the same as choosing an OB/GYN. Some are good and supportive and going to give the mother her space to birth naturally, only stepping in when necessary, but hanging around just near enough to offer the security of 'being there'. Others are not.<br><br>
This is true in any profession. You wouldnt just go into any random hair salon and sit back and let the hairdresser cut, colour and style your hair in any way they like. You'd at least tell them how you'd like it, look around a bit to find a good stylist, get recommendations. If they did a crap job in the end, you'd say so.<br><br>
Choosing a CP for giving birth is oh so much more important than choosing a hairdresser, but sadly, so many mothers, wanting a natural birth (or not) just assume that because its in a birth centre or with a MW, then it must be good.<br><br>
My experience was of wanting to find a good midwife for a home birth, and I kind of just trusted that the right MW would manifest. Only she didn't. and a friend of mine was living near us and hanging around a lot at the time, and she was so OBSESSED with the idea of unassisted birth, and she just kept pushing on the idea. She was so venomous about the idea of MWs, for basically the same reasons the pps wrote.<br><br>
so, in the end, I didn't have a midwife, even though I really wanted one - I just wasn't ready or prepared to give birth unassisted (heck, I didn't feel ready to be a mother!)<br>
What I ended up with was this friend and her best friend as kind of doulas, and it was awful. They really had no idea whatsoever what they were doing. They ignored me when I needed the most support, gave me a bunch of bad advice and information and helped to make my birth a 60+ hour ordeal.<br><br>
in spite of it all, my dd was born healthy and fine <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br>
Now, I am working as a doula, and training to be a MW. I dont wish to practice as a MW in the traditional sense, but to be a doula who has the skills necessary to assist in a HB if something does happen.<br>
Basically, I want to offer services to women who want to give birth unassisted but feel the need to have some qualified, experienced support on hand.<br><br>
I want to start a movement of care providers that are focused on being emotionally sensitive, and completely without interventions. CPs whose main work is to help women to become empowered to give birth naturally, in their own way.<br><br>
So far so good.<br>
100% of the births I attended were natural, mother-directed births, without interventions, no tears. happy mothers and healthy babies. I offer extensive post-partum care, breast-feeding support and general help with childrearing, I am still in touch with every mother I attended and I encourage them to tell me if they had any misgivings. so far, there were none.<br><br>
I often get calls in the middle of the night from mothers who have some problem with their baby. Generally, all that is needed is a loving ear.<br><br>
I hope I'm expressing myself clearly. Anyway, I really agree with the OP. I am really against the current (all too common) model of MWs just being a 'more natural' OB.<br>
Every woman can give birth, our job is not to get in the way. But at the same time, no woman should have to give birth alone. (unless she wants to <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1"> )
 

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so what to respond to in your post.<br>
I think that most of the time midwives are held to a "higher" standard than docs-- and I sure have heard and seen plenty of complaining to midwives and about midwives. Criticizing everything from their religious beliefs, parenting styles, the way they dress and all the relevant midwifery related things as well.<br>
so you had a recent conversation with a midwife who basically gave you feed back that she would not want you as a client-- how many conversations have you had with doctors on this order? I might disagree with what she said would have to have been there(see below)<br>
now how to keep us human and approachable and yet very professional- which is what is happening socially as pressures from all sides mold midwifery.<br>
A bigger social shift needs to happen beyond a profession- we have been buffers inbetween medical-patriacial systems and the families we serve. the Paternalistic system needs to be changed if you want a bigger change in power dynamics-- right now courts and medicine spin on paternalism- and the easiest way to see that is to sit in a court room the first thing that gets thrown out is INFORMED CONSENT. If you sign an informed consent then respect that if you have a complaint that you want to go to court do not allow them to throw out your informed consent- see the trade off parents make this exchange easily all the time they say their consent meant nothing in the face of retribution or financial gain(sometimes this gain is needed for continuing care of a child) . I have even seen it happen on MDC where people tell moms to sue over lack of standard of care--if you want something different than the standard of care sign an informed consent and then have a bad outcome then what?<br>
as far as oversight and problems there are things set aside like midwifery lists that are closed to anyone but midwives and peer review,publications, conferences and even MDC as a resource for moms and midwives can be helpful<br>
- and in the same tone as wanting to be treated as an individual the best way to deal with a midwife is direct communication.<br><br>
I like educated women who want to care for themselves, this use to be the only kind of clients we ever had but now that is not always the case - the partially educated that have only glossed subjects or read an article or 2 about what to do and then think that they have every answer are challenging don't always like to work with them so much probably because their approach is dogmatic if women want flexible midwives why wouldn't midwives want flexible women to be their clients-- heck overall in my life I try to avoid bossy people -- subtleties are lost on them. To be clear having someone know what they want is not what I mean by bossy --And the most frightening clients of all for me are ones who ask my opinion about everything, and I don't mean just ask my opinion but want to do what ever I think--<br>
------------------------------------------------<br>
adding an observation with quotes from above---<br>
"I am however deeply opposed to that which endangers women and as a consumer I don’t see it as in anyone’s best interests for us to be silent when MWs are harmful or neglectful in their dealings with us. Surely by demanding straight dealings and high standards of practice and ethical behaviour we are strengthening midwifery’s capacity to weather the current storms? "<br>
and this statement<br>
"Hospitals are largely faceless, with protocols devised by equally faceless people and enforced by strangers."<br>
-------------------<br>
pressures from the first statement end up with a response that looks like statement #2-- protocols are set to try and standardize actions to prevent things that would endanger women in general as policies that have to do with individual care are much harder /maybe nearly impossible to craft ahead of time.
 

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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mwherbs</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I think that most of the time midwives are held to a "higher" standard than docs--</div>
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By whom? By doctors, certainly. But what the OP is talking about is the relationship between midwives and those who hire them, and their reputation in the natural birth community. Those who work in and promote homebirth are quick to point out the problems with hospital and medicalized birth, but tend to put midwifery up on a pedestal, ignoring the myths and other troublesome issues of midwifery. These are not being addressed as they should be. As a defense against those who would abolish it, those who support it tend to want to pretend that midwifery as it exists currently is this perfect thing. Either that or they really are not aware of problems.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">and I sure have heard and seen plenty of complaining to midwives and about midwives. Criticizing everything from their religious beliefs, parenting styles, the way they dress and all the relevant midwifery related things as well.</td>
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I'm not sure what your point is, or how the degree to which midwifery is filled with catty behavior is relevant. The fact remains that midwives are not getting the feedback they need to.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">as far as oversight and problems there are things set aside like midwifery lists that are closed to anyone but midwives and peer review,publications, conferences and even MDC as a resource for moms and midwives can be helpful</td>
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Talk amongst the midwives themselves is NOT ENOUGH. For women to come on the internet and tell their stories is NOT ENOUGH. The two have to meet somewhere, and currently there's no really good way for that to happen. The last time most women talk to their midwives is at six weeks postpartum, before they've really had a chance to process the experience, while they're still vulnerable and not wanting confrontations. Midwives can talk about this or that aspect of their practice or what they've observed at births and still have NO concept of how their actions actually affected the birthing mother. That is why we need a way for women to voice their complaints and be heard, in a safe way, but a way that will be heard by their care providers. Mwherbs, do you really believe that by talking to your sister midwives that you can know anything about your clients? Do you really believe all your clients have been completely honest with you? Do you ask them for constructive criticism, and to tell you about their hurts and disappointments, a year or two years after the birth? Do you really believe they have felt able to give it to you?<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">so you had a recent conversation with a midwife who basically gave you feed back that she would not want you as a client-- how many conversations have you had with doctors on this order?</td>
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I think you're missing the point of the OP. She's not saying that midwives are worse than doctors. She's not saying that she's basing a judgement of all of midwiferydom on one interaction with one midwife. She was using it as an example of what she has been seeing all around her, and as what she is seeing as a symptom of living in a patriarchal society. The fact that doctors are worse doesn't make the problem in midwifery something we shouldn't be talking about.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">and in the same tone as wanting to be treated as an individual the best way to deal with a midwife is direct communication.</td>
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That may be so. But it may also be unrealistic for the reasons I detailed in my previous post. And those are the reasons that women are not being heard, and that midwives are not learning from their clients. That is what we have to work with. So, given those limitations, what can we do to foster understanding?
 

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I don't mean only midwives being catty to each other- clients are very judgmental and vocal about midwives- or at least in my experience. I also think that we are held by clients to a higher standard- maybe because of just what you are saying idealism about midwifery but that pedestal has steep cliffs<br><br>
try accompanying someone to the hospital some day-- you will see the difference- it is a rare client who questions and picks at all that the hospital offers in the same way or tone I have seen done to midwives- In fact I have seen what seems like a complete personality change in women at times<br><br>
I get why there is discussion. I get the impression that you think that midwives on midwifery lists are not communicating with women or that they haven't been birthing women themselves.<br>
and I say that change can be slow but is still possible we had a long time practicing midwife probably 10000 births under her belt- change to a wait and see or let them tear practice after 30 years of experience doing otherwise-- Midwives come from all walks of life and all sorts of personality styles as well- so how do you standardize that and do you really want to- maybe someone who does not keep on top of all her calls has the same fuzzy thinking that keeps her from being too intellectually clinical and scientific to server her clients in the more friendly less critical way. Rarely have I known a hands off midwife who is also a good phone answerer -- and the midwives I know who are very nervous, tense, tend to the OCD side of things get all their business ducks in a row asap... same with education the midwives I have known who were better labor help , sweet and even accurately intuitive did not do so well with studies or stats and are going to be lost with all the push toward the intellectualization of midwifery -- and there is another dimension here that has to do with midwives serving a very small numbers less than 1% in my region and that is it takes some particular skills in order to endure a 99% push against what you are doing- and those qualities may not be the easiest or best when you want flexible... where I live there are more retired midwives than practicing midwives including midwives from countries where midwives were the primary care providers. The foreign midwives that have retired here are young and have retired early- primarily because of the amount of social adversity- where they come from it was just a mainstream thing to do- they weren't trying to be radicals or protest anything by becoming a midwife -- here that is what it takes to be a midwife- maybe less so in Oregon or New Mexico but I still think it is far from being a mainstream choice.
 

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As a midwife I certainly think we need feedback from clients. To me the women are the ones who truly "certify" you by choosing you as their attendant.<br>
It is kind of complicated because everyone is human, practices differently, changes practice over time as they gain experience, learns from their clients, gets investigated by the state, have their own personal issues and on and on.<br>
Pregnant women have different expectations for midwives, sometimes unreasonable. They also come with their own issues, change what they think or feel about their birth experiences afterwards, etc.<br>
We all do the best with what we know and who we are at the time things are happening. Sometimes we don't realize something is important to us until we have the experience of it being lacking.<br>
I chose my bad childbirth class, doc and hospital for my first birth and learned from that. None of them were to blame. They were doing what they knew to do. I was not to blame for anything either. It is an experience to learn from. Painful, needed healing- yes. But that is life.<br>
We all need to work on communication skills and being willing to hear criticism.<br>
I think just as you might write a letter to a doc explaining why you were not happy with the care you received, you might write to the midwife if meeting in person was too challenging.<br>
It is the woman's responsibility to speak up and the midwife's to be willing to hear in order to improve her practice. Are women also willing to hear about how their inner dynamics or social/emotional conditions may have contributed to the birth outcome as well? Everyone must be willing to honestly look at the experience.<br>
You have to look at why you want to let the midwife know how you feel. To get it off your chest and come to some resolution within yourself? To change her? To get some sort of apology or recompense? I wouldn't count on any satisfaction with the last 2 reasons just as you probably wouldn't expect that from a doc. Humans just don't like to be told they were wrong or hurt someone. So do it for yourself and let it go. You are not responsible for the midwife's reaction or lack of one. You are responsible for your own.<br>
If you feel her practice is dangerous, you can contact your local midwives group, NARM or the state.<br>
I would hope all midwives set the tenor of the relationship with their clients as one of openess, acceptance and compassion. I would hope that all clients would try to understand things from a practitioner's perspective. I know when I do this I can understand a lot why docs do what they do.<br>
Forums like this and word of mouth in local communities usually get the word around about midwives' practices. It is like choosing any other service provider. You ask around, ask yourself what matters most to you, use both your head and heart to decide. I do realize the "stakes" are a lot higher or more important so the parents should take the time to really look for a compatible care provider.
 

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I plan to discuss my birth in detail with my midwife at my annual exam coming up next month. I hope to get a few explanations from her and perhaps give her some constructive criticism. I would never want to give birth in a hospital again though, no matter what she says about how things happened.
 

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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/privateeyes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="private eyes">
 

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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/privateeyes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="private eyes"> ive got a lot to say about this but no time to say it
 

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I think women are incredibly hard on themselves, and as a result we're incredibly hard on each other. We expect to be let down by men, abused, manipulated, disappointed. But we expect fellow women to know us inside out, whether we're sisters or strangers. We expect women to read our minds, to know our will. To act in our best interests even when it's at odds with their own. We have expectations of our fellow women that are unfair, unrealistic, sometimes painfully so.<br><br>
I see this a lot in the feminist movement, and I see it in the midwifery/homebirth community.
 

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BelgianSheepDog, could you elaborate? What does that have to do with the points made in the OP or by myself?<br><br>
It's ironic that some of these posts are so defensive and at the same time claiming that "it is the woman's responsibility to speak up." This is *why* women don't speak up, don't you see? Because their concerns and hurts are dismissed and turned back around on them in exactly this fashion.<br><br>
This bears repeating and maybe can help get us back on track:<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">[...]people don’t always seek to blame, they just need to be heard and have that truth and experience honoured in the telling. Women sometimes struggle with that as CPs are unwilling to listen to that which they interpret as somehow indicting their practice or behaviour.<br><br>
How do we strengthen hb/midwifery without being fearless in our critiquing of the behaviour or MWs and consumers alike?</td>
</tr></table></div>
 
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