[pamamidwife]

wanted to add, too, that I find it really hard to read posts in which there are no clear paragraphs. I'm talking a separation between paragraphs. I get lost trying to make sense of them. Just wanted to be clear why I didn't even begin to address some posts here. Sometimes, they're too confusing and my life is to disruptive to dedicate the larger amount of time to piece them apart.

 

[JanetF]

Thank you, Pam, for seeing what I'm actually saying and "getting" it! This is what I celebrate in midwifery, the capacity to be reflective and thoughtful. Luv ya work, as we say over here <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1">

 

[BelgianSheepDog]

Loved, I'm referring to the idea that we shouldn't recognize elders in the community as perhaps knowing more, the idea that midwives don't particularly know anything at all and that any lay person could wander in and handle a situation just as well. I see a lot of anti-intellectualism in "freebirth" critiques of midwifery.<br><br>
Not that there's nothing to criticize, far from it, I'd just rather it be on a basis other than "those uppity women think they know more than I do."<br><br>
Making sense?

 

[loved]

I see. Thanks for the clarification Belgiansheepdog. I still would like to hear your thoughts about women as midwives in the patriarchy and how that is scues the community's view of us.<br>
Like, what about midwives who practice out of a religious point of view?<br><br>
I have always come to midwifery from a place of a feminist...so when I discovered this early on I found it hard to get my brain around.<br><br>
Maybe this is another topic?<br><br>
Pamamidwife - your points were so dang good!

 

[Joyce in the mts.]

Well, I don't think I have much of anything to add to this discussion of value I am afraid, since I am not a midwife (yet), though I had a brief apprenticeship many years ago and hope to approach such again soon. I am currently on a doula path.<br><br>
First I want to say that I appreciate every contribution to this discussion- I feel that I want to print this thread out to read again and again to digest, think about and consider, since there is SO much "nourishment" in it.<br><br>
Thank you all for sharing your minds, hearts and souls here.<br><br>
I do want to ask, what self-care you all do in your life? Yoga? Prayer? Meditation? How do you come to center as you explore your professional and your personal growth and self-responsibility?<br><br>
Is there support for your spirit (considering the work you do, the humility involved in watchful gatekeeping in birth, etc., it seems necessary- but that is just me wondering and thinking out loud...what do I know?)<br><br>
I am a Reiki (energy work- my practice is 17 years, with 10 as teacher) teaching practitioner and I have been developing a Reiki seminar for self-care among birthworkers and others in helping professions- specifically to encourage release, support process/exploration of reflections/growth, help the practice of acceptance...and avoid "denaturing" work around birth and other helpwork as well as helping to avoid "burnout". This seminar is dedicated to those on these lifework pathways. I am happy to come anywhere to teach and share- pm me for further info. I have just been moved to present this in the last several months and have been working on it like mad- didn't know why. Maybe I am beginning to see why in this thread. Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree...it's ok to tell me so if I am- I am not selling anything, just offering something that may be of help.<br><br>
Perhaps some supportive group work with face-to-face mediation between client/provider and/or provider/provider in case of issues arising, could be helpful as part of building a better journey together- y'know, the conferences are wonderful for recharging and group sharing- am going to MANA this fall in fact, myself, but I wonder where is the ongoing support community for midwives and other birthworkers, addressing both self-care and mutual care on all levels? Where is the opportunity for face to face, safe and mutually satisfactory process with regard to issues? I imagine that there are some places; perhaps many places where there is much support for staying connected with one's own growth and process. Aren't we all in this together?<br><br>
Birth work requires a real connection with such strong energies, with Nature and with Woman/Self, with so many reflections within each experience on whichever side of the experience you are on (professional or client)...there's so much to integrate, learn and observe...so much. Lots of energy running. And there is the practical aspects and scientific aspects- it's alot to integrate.<br><br>
I just wish everyone peace and honor in their onward movement on the path...And thank you again, for this thread/discussion. I am moved by it.<br><br>
I don't know if I have contributed anything of value- I hope something here is supportive of you all.<br><br>
J.

 

[wumanh]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Joyce in the mts.</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Well, I don't think I have much of anything to add to this discussion of value I am afraid, since I am not a midwife (yet), though I had a brief apprenticeship many years ago and hope to approach such again soon. I am currently on a doula path.<br><br>
First I want to say that I appreciate every contribution to this discussion- I feel that I want to print this thread out to read again and again to digest, think about and consider, since there is SO much "nourishment" in it.<br><br>
Thank you all for sharing your minds, hearts and souls here.<br><br>
I do want to ask, what self-care you all do in your life? Yoga? Prayer? Meditation? How do you come to center as you explore your professional and your personal growth and self-responsibility?<br><br>
Is there support for your spirit (considering the work you do, the humility involved in watchful gatekeeping in birth, etc., it seems necessary- but that is just me wondering and thinking out loud...what do I know?)<br><br>
I am a Reiki (energy work- my practice is 17 years, with 10 as teacher) teaching practitioner and I have been developing a Reiki seminar for self-care among birthworkers and others in helping professions- specifically to encourage release, support process/exploration of reflections/growth, help the practice of acceptance...and avoid "denaturing" work around birth and other helpwork as well as helping to avoid "burnout". This seminar is dedicated to those on these lifework pathways. I am happy to come anywhere to teach and share- pm me for further info. I have just been moved to present this in the last several months and have been working on it like mad- didn't know why. Maybe I am beginning to see why in this thread. Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree...it's ok to tell me so if I am- I am not selling anything, just offering something that may be of help.<br><br>
Perhaps some supportive group work with face-to-face mediation between client/provider and/or provider/provider in case of issues arising, could be helpful as part of building a better journey together- y'know, the conferences are wonderful for recharging and group sharing- am going to MANA this fall in fact, myself, but I wonder where is the ongoing support community for midwives and other birthworkers, addressing both self-care and mutual care on all levels? Where is the opportunity for face to face, safe and mutually satisfactory process with regard to issues? I imagine that there are some places; perhaps many places where there is much support for staying connected with one's own growth and process. Aren't we all in this together?<br><br>
Birth work requires a real connection with such strong energies, with Nature and with Woman/Self, with so many reflections within each experience on whichever side of the experience you are on (professional or client)...there's so much to integrate, learn and observe...so much. Lots of energy running. And there is the practical aspects and scientific aspects- it's alot to integrate.<br><br>
I just wish everyone peace and honor in their onward movement on the path...And thank you again, for this thread/discussion. I am moved by it.<br><br>
I don't know if I have contributed anything of value- I hope something here is supportive of you all.<br><br>
J.</div>
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We need to hear from everyone, midwife or not. I look at midwifery as more than catching babies. We are all constantly gestating or laboring or birthing our next step in our lives. Knowing how to support someone with this is midwifery. Trusting them to know or find the way themselves, reflecting with them, sharing resources, holding space.<br><br>
This is the work of midwifery. The baby comes out via a natural process that needs no help. Most of the work is getting out of the way and not interfering. Learning how to work with the process. Nourishing ourselves thru it. Opening our hearts and minds to the blessings whatever the experience entails.<br><br>
We do need more self-nourishment and taking time to center. I know so many midwives who live with financial, political/legal stress plus the normal stress of life. It does affect how you relate to women, how you practice.<br><br>
I think it is a dynamic for groups who are oppressed to fall into the cattiness, suspicion of each other, defensiveness. It's a discipline to monitor oneself.<br><br>
Midwifery work is so important and intense and involves every part of oneself that it is hard to be detached enough to accept criticism.<br><br>
I know that having a good partner to work with or other mw you trust enough to care for your clients is like being married- the amount of compatibility, communication, wrok etc. that is required.<br><br>
Sometimes in midwifery groups it is hard when you disagree with fellow midwives to maintain respect and compassion for each other when your beliefs and practises can be so different.<br><br>
I can totally relate with Pam about feeling comfortable or not having another mw on call for you who practises differently. I am sure mw in my area feel that way about me as well!<br><br>
This is a great discussion!

 

[wumanh]

It really bugs me when midwives get into the psychoanalyzing. We are there to walk with the woman on her journey, wherever that takes her.<br><br>
That being said, if I can see she may be headed for a cliff I may want to warn her and point out a better way to go.<br><br>
If I observe a dynamic that doesn't serve her, support life, work with the process I will say something.<br><br>
I also don't think women have to be "totally clear" or heal every single thing in their lives to give birth joyfully. This thinking comes from fear of what may transpire at the birth- complications- and wanting to avoid them.<br><br>
It seems sensible to want to avoid them but it's that subtle difference of doing things out of fear or doing them to nourish life. Life is about death, hard times, etc. as well as the love and laughter. We have to be willing to accept it all.

 

[wumanh]

Pam, love what you are saying and bringing out.

 

[wumanh]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>fourlittlebirds</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">This bothers me. I do agree that everyone need to be honest about looking at their own part in the thing, but the way this is worded, it smacks to me of "blame the victim." In other words, the client comes to the midwife saying, "this is how your actions affected me," and the midwife says, "and this is how I see this as being your problem." It really bothers me when midwives' response to criticism is to psychoanalyze their clients and shift the blame.<br><br>
I did speak out. It was incredibly hard and stressful (which is why I think there needs to be an anonymous, safe way for women to do so, so more would be likely to.) For all my trouble, the midwife did not seem to hear me, and I think it was because she was feeling attacked (although I tried to be as gentle as possible.) She turned it back on me: from her perspective there was some character flaw in me that made the birth traumatic.<br><br>
This is why I think it's crucial to have some sort of feedback system that is completely anonymous but also open to other midwives and clients. So that the midwife is less inclined to take it personally, so that the client is more inclined to speak up, and so other midwives can hear the clients' side. So there is no defensiveness to get in the way of the mother being heard.<br><br><br><br>
It's hierarchical. What has happened to "every woman a midwife?" Perhaps we all have this wisdom within ourselves. Perhaps what keeps us from realizing it is the worship of (and reliance on) those who we think have something special and mysterious that we cannot conceive of having ourselves.<br><br><br><br>
No one is saying that we are absolute equals in every sense. But I can say that I know more about my body and what it needs to give birth than your granny midwife ever possibly could. (I don't mean that to sound belligerant, please just take it at face value.)<br><br>
I have a midwife friend who calls me a wise woman, and says that listening to me has changed how she practices. But you know what? She already knew it on some level, all of it, and that's why she was able to recognize it. I'm not any wiser than she is. Various circumstances helped me to be aware of certain truths, and other circumstances (including my words) helped her to be aware of them in turn. It didn't originate with me, it's just coming through me, just as it came to me through someone or something else, and just as it will go through her to others. And it flows the other way, too. So there is transmission of knowledge, but it's not hierarchical.</div>
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I certainly do not think mws should turn this around to "blame the victim" but it is also never the case that everything is due to only the mw's actions.<br><br>
I am sorry that your attempt to communicate with your mw didn't go as you would have liked. Hopefully she will think about it more.<br><br>
I can see why anonymous would be good but I always put interactions in the context of the individual people. Like- when I think "oh I know why she said that. It's because she was having a bad hair day."<br><br>
Maybe mw could develop a survey with specific questions on their practice, communication, etc. that they could send to their clients every year.<br><br><br>
I think that we have to separate our worth as people from level of skill or knowledge. As people we are equal.<br><br>
Having different levels of skill, or knowledge is not hierarchical in a "power over" sense (and should not be used that way" but a matter of having worked for the experience or insights or knowledge. That is certainly deserving of respect.<br><br>
PS I have not figured out how to quote just sections of someone's post. Can someone tell me? Thanks

 

[wumanh]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>loved</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I see. Thanks for the clarification Belgiansheepdog. I still would like to hear your thoughts about women as midwives in the patriarchy and how that is scues the community's view of us.<br>
Like, what about midwives who practice out of a religious point of view?<br><br>
I have always come to midwifery from a place of a feminist...so when I discovered this early on I found it hard to get my brain around.<br><br>
Maybe this is another topic?<br><br>
Pamamidwife - your points were so dang good!</div>
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I am coming to understand that for women who choose homebirth that the religious view- that God created women's bodies to birth and that it is a sacred event- agrees with feminist views on birth. Also the surrendering to the process- whatever God gives you you can handle- does make for a lot less tension around the whole process.

 

[wumanh]

What are the things about mw care that women are dissatisfied about? Are they general or is it always specific to the woman's situation? I would like to hear what they are and bring that to other mw via local group, MANA or NARM. I especially want to hear from UCers.<br><br>
What would you want a mw to specifically ask about in her survey? I figure I should ask the women instead of doing one based on just what I think.<br><br>
I usually ask women at the 6 week visit if there is anything I could do to improve but perhaps they are hesitant to tell me.

 

[mwherbs]

Pam wrote--"I will continue to be honest about my own experience and my own criticisms of my practice - past and present - because I cannot rightly rip apart another midwife's practice. I can ask her questions about her intentions, her direction, why she believes something to be true, etc., but to just blatantly tell her she's wrong is no better than not honoring our clients for being in a different place in their journey."<br><br>
yes what I was getting at even if you didn't read the long story which could have paragraphs but since separation often means change of topic here -- the longer story was all of one piece and not separate bulleted points. Judging another midwife's practice to what ends? As an apprentice or assistant you need to pick and choose as well as when you are a client.<br><br>
I do evaluate/re-evaluate not only what I do but what is being proposed for me to do by everyone in the community- clients, other midwives and doctors, state regulations, research and I look at what other midwives have chosen to do in response. Additionally when we participate in peer-review you can expect a mixed bag and it is good to have some idea about the values and choices another midwife would make in your same situation. Sometimes you need to also know about those values ahead of time so you are not slammed by them. The very aggressive out spoken among us often get the first and last words in if you are not prepared, and sometimes even if you are prepared.<br><br>
Since this is on the midwifery board , perhaps for more "client" input on MDC it should also be on another board.<br><br>
I have a preference for direct feed back, things in context make so much more sense to me, I also see the need for some anon feed back but agree with wumanh that it needs to be more to the individual practice. Not only for myself but I have worked with some very in-your-space midwives who think they are and tell everyone they are HANDSOFF- and they are telling the truth compared to their apprenticeship, education and personality.So direct feed back to this particular practice could go a long way in helping re-define HANDS-OFF- where when she just reads the "buzz word" she thinks she is already there and doesn't need to read about it , busy midwives being selective with their time.<br>
On the other hand I do not expect every midwife to bend all the time- if someone wants a religious midwife and you are not of that religion are you going to convert? I am respectful of people's religious beliefs and my own.

 

[cottonwood]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>loved</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I think it is hugely arrogant to think that we get to say how or WHY a birth unfolds. Most times it truly is a mystery.</div>
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Well, we can't ever say for sure. I mean, so a mother's blood pressure drops with an epidural. Can we say without any doubt that's why? Well, I suppose not, but it sure would be an awfully big coincidence then. In the same way I can say that it's highly likely that the midwife's actions contributed to the way I experienced birth and the way my body functioned in birth. She was sitting between my legs peering and prodding at my crotch. Knowing what I do now about inhibition and hormones, I can say that probably had a lot to do with why my pushing phase was so long. And I do know how her words affected me. That's not a mystery. And again, it's likely that her words had a certain affect on the labor and not another. I think often when it appears to be a mystery we just haven't looked closely enough.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">If there is a completely anonymous feedback system (which there already is: one could write an anonymous letter to the peer review system/board or NARM in most states), then what happens when there are questions - ie she wants to know why the midwife didn't do XYZ? Or what was the midwife thinking at the time? If it's an anonymous letter it's a blanket statement.</td>
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That's not the kind of anonymous system I'm talking about. How many people are going to hear a letter given to NARM, and what guarantee is there that it will even be read at peer review?<br><br>
Questions that need to be directed at the midwife can be directed at the midwife. The existence of an anonymous system wouldn't mean the abolition of personal communication.<br><br>
But I understand what you're saying. For instance, say the mother writes, "the midwife broke my waters without my consent and for no reason at all." And maybe it was actually done by accident, or the midwife did have a reason and it just wasn't communicated. Maybe knowing that would make a difference in judging the events of the story. But the fact that this is what the woman perceived <i>in itself</i> is worthy of being heard and thought on. It doesn't really matter, as far as the lesson to those reading, what the truth was -- even with the midwife's side of the story, we still wouldn't know that for sure. The point is not to nit-pick every little decision and decide whether it was justified or not, the point is to become aware of what experiences women are having, and to begin to question why they are having those types of experiences.<br><br>
For instance, many women feel depressed about a sudden cessation of contact with these people who were intimately a part of one of the most profound experiences of their lives, and feel very confused and conflicted about this. I think most midwives are generally aware that there is a little sadness that occurs with this separation, but don't feel it deeply. I never told my midwives, for various reasons. But what might happen if woman after woman started mentioning it in their after-birth survey, for other mothers and midwives to see? How would that change perceptions, to become aware of the depth and seriousness of it on a grand scale? How might it then change the specifics of how homebirth midwifery is practiced over time?<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Yes that can heal. But what about an apology? What if she really needs to hear that she truly has been heard? What about processing? What if what she wants is to know that the midwife did the best she could with what she had and has learned? How do you do that anonymously?</td>
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You don't, and like I said, personal communication can happen concurrently, if the mother has a need for it. It was part of my processing/healing process, even though the midwife did not "hear" me nor apologize, I did realize that the midwife was truly just clueless (and maybe in denial,) and I was able to let go of it to some extent. Most of my processing, though, happened in trauma counseling with another midwife, in discussions with my friends and online, and through my own meditations.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Mentorships and healers, midwives, wise people of all kinds: yes I guess you could call it hierachical. But respect is not bad or wrong - recognizing that we don't know something doesn't mean that we are out of touch - it just means we haven't learned yet.</td>
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I acknowledged that we are not equals in every sense. But I don't think that one person's lack of knowledge in an area in relation to another's knowledge, implies a natural hierarchy of power and worship. (Worship defined as looking up to someone as beyond or above you in some respect.) Respect is good, but I deserve the same kind of respect as someone who has more knowledge than I do, as does the person who does not yet have the knowledge I do. I guess that is because I do not respect achievement, I respect humanness, humility, and the desire to learn.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">(and I have heard it said "for every woman a midwife" interesting...).</td>
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As to the meaning of that phrase, which I believe Jeannine Parvati Baker coined (though I could be wrong!): <a href="http://www.freestone.org/articles/Freebirth-EveryMother.html" target="_blank">http://www.freestone.org/articles/Fr...eryMother.html</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Other cultures (mostly primitive cultures these days) do not do "every woman a midwife" [...] (I think - correct me if I am wrong - there is only one culture wherein the mother must go out and birth alone and in even in that society she is prepared by the wise one's in her culture for the journey).</td>
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First, traditional midwifery, whatever its pros and cons, is VERY different from modern midwifery. For my mother and sisters to gather around me in a protective circle and to nuture me is very different from me hiring someone who is essentially a stranger, cultivating an artificially intimate relationship with her so that I can be comfortable with her witnessing me in a profoundly intimate and meaningful event, and having her timing contractions, doing cervical exams, and telling me how and when to push (or whatever interventions she and I feel are necessary.)<br><br>
Second, I'm not aware of any culture in which the mother <i>must</i> birth alone, but a few in which mothers (especially those that have given birth more than once) often do, or with attendants around as protection rather than for guidance. As far as we know, most cultures disturb the birth process by ritualizing or guiding it in some way. But does it necessarily follow that this is normal, best, natural? We have records of very few cultures that are not aggressive, and the ones that are not disturb the process the least. Michel Odent's theory is that this disturbance of the birth process through ritual and guiding serves aggressive societies, rather than the individual. I think this happens in two ways: it creates further aggression by interfering with bonding and making the birth process difficult, and it bonds together the women folk as a protection against the patriarchal (aggressive) structure. Is it possible that we have idealized that "women with women" scenario not because it is best for all individual women, but because we seek to justify social mandates when they are not comfortable?<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">the mystery - Your statement "No one is saying that we are absolute equals in every sense. But I can say that I know more about my body and what it needs to give birth than your granny midwife ever possibly could. (I don't mean that to sound belligerant, please just take it at face value.)"<br><br>
On the flip side what I hear you say is that she would not have known that too.</td>
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That's right. She cannot possibly, as she is outside it, while I am inside it.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">And she would also have known how to help you see that (if you didn't already consciously know) and also how to recognize and learn from the mystery.</td>
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Perhaps. There is certainly value in midwifery for some women, even if they don't need the midwife to tell her how to give birth.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Midwives have huge egos in western culture and with good reason - we have to be mavericks, bucking the system in so many ways, which trickles down hopefully to the women we serve in helping them buck the system and believe in themselves - because, by golly, we want them to "get-it" as well. And to basically come from that good place - it's hard for us to hear that our practices have gone astray and are hurting women. but we do need to hear it...because ultimately it's not about "Us" (Midwives) or "Me" - it's about something much deeper.</td>
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I agree totally.

 

[cottonwood]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>BelgianSheepDog</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Loved, I'm referring to the idea that we shouldn't recognize elders in the community as perhaps knowing more, the idea that midwives don't particularly know anything at all and that any lay person could wander in and handle a situation just as well. I see a lot of anti-intellectualism in "freebirth" critiques of midwifery.<br><br>
Not that there's nothing to criticize, far from it, I'd just rather it be on a basis other than "those uppity women think they know more than I do."<br><br>
Making sense?</div>
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Ah, right. Since I said that I know better how my body needs to give birth than any midwife and your comment came on the heals on my post, I assume you're referring to me as one of those anti-intellectuals.<br><br>
Well, as I've said repeatedly, we're not all equal in what we know. I certainly don't believe that I know all the same things the average midwife does. I have no idea, for instance, how to suture a tear. Or what late decels mean. Or how to corkscrew a baby out. I'm constantly PMing Pamamidwife to ask her medical questions, or for her insights. In fact, I have several questions a day and wish she were on more often. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1"> I see her as a resource, a consultant, but <i>not</i> an expert on what my body needs to give birth under normal circumstances, in other words, the instinctive, primal process. It's like saying she knows better than I what I need to do while making love. Or when my body needs to turn over in bed while I'm sleeping, or when or how to go to sleep. If I'm unhealthy or divorced to some extent from this instinctive, primal process, it might create problems that someone else can help me deal with. If I'm already outside the process, an outsider may be in as a good a position to assess it as I am, or better.<br><br>
But assuming that I am physically normal and healthy and can access my instincts and avoid stimulating my neocortex during labor (yes, that means allowing it to be <i>non-intellectual</i>) there is nothing true anyone else can add to it that my body doesn't already know. Anything added in as guidance or instruction is an intervention, a disturbance. This isn't anti-intellectualism. In fact, it's supported by scientific theory, and by the midwives' philosophy itself, which claims to "trust birth".

 

[cottonwood]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>wumanh</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I certainly do not think mws should turn this around to "blame the victim" but it is also never the case that everything is due to only the mw's actions.</div>
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But I didn't say that. I said, "everyone need to be honest about looking at their own part in the thing." The implication there is *not* that everything is due to the midwife's actions. My only point was that when you say, "this is how your actions affected me," it's not constructive for you to dismiss that with a "well, that's because there's something wrong with you."<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">I can see why anonymous would be good but I always put interactions in the context of the individual people. Like- when I think "oh I know why she said that. It's because she was having a bad hair day."</td>
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Yes, in other words, blaming the victim. Making it be anonymous would perhaps help it not to be so easy to do that.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">I have not figured out how to quote just sections of someone's post. Can someone tell me? Thanks</td>
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In the menu bar above the box where you're typing your response, you'll see a little "word bubble" like you see in comic books. Select the text you want to quote, then click on that button.

 

[mwherbs]

in the original post JanetF wrote-<br>
" the cases I see around me of MWs dumping clients or otherwise behaving poorly have always occurred and we’ve just never had a national forum in which to view it before."<br><br>
I wanted to respond to this and forgot to before- just dumping clients is abandonment and is not acceptable in many places it isn't even legal if this is being done there is usually some way to be heard and make a complaint and a complaint like this will be taken seriously by a peer-review or a licensing board.

 

[BelgianSheepDog]

Ah, ok. Having a homebirth with midwives is letting someone else be an expert about my body. PMing a midwife on the internet constantly with questions is trusting my own instincts.<br><br>
Honestly I don't get the distinction. You consult with an expert, I consult with an expert, in the end it's the woman who has to give birth, no one else, but we both got help making it easier and safer.

 

[pamamidwife]

I think there is a big difference between having someone in your birth space and consulting them - at your discretion - via phone or email.<br><br>
I think there are still alot of people who choose to do UC birth that may not really understand the aspect of really listening to your body and your baby. Really focusing on your own intuitive power and knowledge. There are people who have a midwife-attended birth that are totally in touch with their body.<br><br>
I think it's too simple to make black and white conclusions, but I definitely agree with what Linda is saying.<br><br>
I don't understand why this conversation is so threatening to some. As a midwife, it makes perfect sense. But that could be because I struggle so much more with being a midwife in and of itself.

 

[BelgianSheepDog]

I have a lot to say about why the discussion bothers me, but I don't think MDC is the place for my comments.

 

[pamamidwife]

Mama, where is the appropriate forum, then? If we aren't discussing this what happens? Nada.<br><br>
I think that the movement of midwifery depends on conversations like this. If we are unwilling to discuss it, then there is no movement. I see a huge need for some evolution of modern midwifery.<br><br>
Feel free to PM me, mama. Or email me at pamela dot midwife at gmail.com<br><br>
I do really want to hear from you - and am concerned at why you're not feeling safe here.