[3 little birds]

I found this information while researching the raw vegan diet my family is transitioning to and I thought it was terribly interesting.
I have always believed that all that blood and inconvienience never made alot of sense.
I was wondering if anyone else ovulates but doesn't bleed?
www.waldorfhomeschoolers.com/menstruation.htm

 

[BeeandOwlsMum]

Honestly I am not sure I buy this....but still thinking about it.

I have several friend who eat raw food or strictly vegan diets...and they still have periods...and one of them has fairly heavy ones.

I think that there is something here that turns me off....not sure what yet.

 

[3 little birds]

One of the things I learned from this article that I had previously not known was that only domesticated animals bleed. Wild animals do not (according to this writer-dissenting views invited

). Also that:
"Hemorrhage is NOT a condition of health.... It is a pathological state and is always harmful and sometimes dangerous. Hemorrhage in the uterus is no more normal than is hemorrhage in the brain or lungs. It is less dangerous only because the uterus is less vital to the immediate welfare of the body." (2:24)

 

[gaffa]

If anyone has read "Nissa", an anthropological study of a woman's life in one african tribe ( I don't remember which), they had periods and bled though much much less than western women. It was speculated that this was due to their super active lifestyle (think athletes periods) and extremely low body fat content.

 

[lemon]

For me, the problem with this article is that it suggests that menstruation is something negative. I don't like that. Bleeding is part of the normal female cycle of life, and should be honored. Of course, this cycle varies a lot from body to body (I myself have always had a light flow with little cramping, regardless of what I eat), but there is beauty in it, however it manifests itself. There is a lot of baggage, in many cultures, that has created the idea that menstruation is "impure." My fear is that this article perpetuates this false idea.

And although very healthy bodies, like hardcore athletes, can cease menstruating, so can very unhealthy bodies, like women who don't have enough to eat, or women punishing themselves with eating disorders.

So we need to be careful and learn what is normal and healthy for each of us.

 

[BeeandOwlsMum]

Yeah lemon...i think that is what turned me off too....

The idea that periods are bad or unhealthy really doesn't sit will with me.

As some one who has taken great pains to get her period back, and to ovulate on a regular basis, the idea that I am now unhealthy, and should try to lose my period again is disturbing.

 

[Marlena]

Anorexics eventually stop menstruating, too, but we don't consider that healthy, do we?

I believe the reason the women of the Kung! tribe menstruated less (as reported by Marjorie Shostak) is because they're more frequently pregnant and/or lactating than most women in the west.

 

[jenkf]

I saw the raw foods heading and had to post... I followed the Hippocrates diet for 5 years (vegan/raw/living foods), and had periods throughout. My periods became quite a bit lighter, but also much more bothersome with horrible cramping and horrible PMS. I also developed a lot of health problems due to protein deficiency. Once back on a less-restricted whole foods diet, my periods and general health improved greatly. My opinion is that it is a wonderful diet short-term to correct imbalances or "clean out," but that when followed exclusively for many years can lead to a host of health problems (friends of mine have had similar experiences).

 

[ChristieB]

In the Old Testament they talk about a woman's menstrual flow (of course, they felt it was unclean

: ). And that was a few thousand years ago, and their diet then was certainly a far cry from the diet we eat today. I imagine it's referred to in other historical writings, too. This says to me that menstrual flow *is* normal. Also, we humans have different bodies and different functions than animals. Citing information about animals' menstrual flows really says very little about what our menstrual flows should be like.

I have little doubt that the average "Western" woman has a heavier and more difficult period than she "should" or than she needs. But I think there are many factors that contribute to that, one of them being diet. But a good whole foods diet, one that contains protien and cooked foods as well as plenty fresh fruits and vegetables, plus exercise often helps women (it did me!).

When I first got my period, I didn't mind it at all (once I got the hang of it and knew how to keep blood from leaking onto my clothes). I think the authors assumption that all girls wish they didn't have it is erroneous. It wasn't painful, and wasn't unduly heavy or long. It wasn't until I started having other health problems that my period was a problem. Now that I have addressed the other health problems and have a good diet (one that works for me), and now that I've given birth (I don't know why, but it sure made a difference!), I have pretty easy periods and I have the experience described in the article of not knowing my period is coming until it's here.

ETA: I have read that a woman's period is a good detox, and I've found this to be true. I had a friend in college who, while we were travelling for 4 months had no periods and she said she felt "blocked" and was desperate for her periods to return. This sort of experience also says to me that they are a normal (and even necessary) part of life for us women.

Christie

 

[sunbaby]

ok, i only skimmed this long article, so let me know if i missed something, but i want to see a study that compares a large group of women who adopted this diet. how many loose thier periods? how many concieve and have healthy pregnancies vs. how many fail to have babes. she mentions that *some* women loose thier periods and still have kids, but this just seems anecdotal to me. i want to see a study.

that said, i have often wondered about the fact that we are the only animals who really menstrate, given that there are so many other things we have in common with other mammals. i dont think we are that different. when you study organs and skeletal systems, it becomes obvious just how very alike we are. so i am open to considering this.

and yet, i dont believe a vegan diet is good for everyone, particularly not a raw food diet. and i beg to differ with her description of humans as frugivores. we are omnivores, according to my mom, who has a degree in anthropology. i wish i could eat no animal products. i tried for 8 years and made myself very sick. i cannot digest or assimilate most raw food.

yeah, as others have said, this whole article is disturbing when i think of all the anorexics who have lost thier periods, which is certainly not a sign of health. so i consider this article's view, and am open to it, but need to see better proof.

 

[3 little birds]

Thank you to everyone who has responded. I appreciate all the comments made.

I wanted to mention that I never intended for this to become a debate of any sort, esp. pertaining to a raw food diet. However, I probably should have forseen that eventuality. The article did only suggest a 50% raw diet which I believe is pretty moderate. Suffice to say, we are vegan and raw which applies to those who eat 75-100% of their food in a natural state (uncooked). This was not a decision we made lightly or without research. There are many different types of raw diets, Hippocrates, Hallelujah diet, etc, and we agree that those diets may not work long term. The book "Raw Secrets" really helped us to learn what not to do on a raw diet and we are very happy with it. However, we are always learning and remain open-minded, so invite differeing opinions.

I agree with sunbaby that more information is needed. I believe there were some books quoted in the article that I would find interesting to read.

I also thought of anorexics and extreme athletes when I first read the article. I had thought that anorexics and athletes periods stopped because of extremely low body fat. Not enough to sustain a healthy pregnancy, therefore these women do not ovulate. Am I mistaken? (wouldn't be the first time

)

I found the article interesting because it indicated that you could be healthy and ovulating and not bleeding.

As for the animal comparison, I only mentioned that because it said that wild animals (who do not bleed) that are then domesticated, begin to bleed and then stop bleeding when reintroduced to the wild.

I was also intrigued with the bioflavanoid-collagen connection(low bioflavonoids cause the capillary walls in uterus to collapse causing bleeding) and also the role estrogen plays in this process.

Perhaps this interests me because I had multiple surgeries as a teenager to remove large ovarian cysts and endometriosis. My periods use to last 6 days and then lengthened to 7 days despite 2 pregnancies, 2 years without menstruating while nursing my twins and eating a pesco-vegetarian diet (with fish, milk and eggs) and now I'm going into my 5th year nursing.

Sunbaby,if you would like, I would love to hear your opinion on why a raw diet is not good. I ask in all sincerity- I am truly interested and not looking for a debate (argument). I am always researching and examining both sides because I am responsible for my children's health and don't want to harm them.

Again, thanks for all the responses!

 

[lemon]

Quote:

Originally posted by 3 little birds I found the article interesting because it indicated that you could be healthy and ovulating and not bleeding.

3 little birds,

I can tell from your posts that this is your real question & I'm sorry no one's been able to answer it for you yet.

I'm not sure if this is really possible, though. I skimmed the article again, and I don't think the author cites any concrete examples of ovulating regularly without monthly bleeding. (It's a pretty long article, though, I might have missed something.) Some women stated that they had reduced flow during their periods - these, I would guess, are still ovulating regularly. But for the women who aren't having periods at all, I would expect that their ovulation has also diminished substantially. They may be ovulating occasionally, so they could still become pregnant if they timed it right, but I doubt that they are ovulating with the same frequency that they used to.

These are just my thoughts on the matter. Hope you find some more answers!

 

[sunbaby]

3 little birds, i only intended to suggest that a vegan raw foods diet is not healthy for everyone, i certainly had no intention of implying that no one should do it. i didnt do well as a vegetarian, and fared worse when i tried to be vegan, and worse when i tried to do lots of raw foods. i guess my bringing it up actually shows how very sad i was about this. when i realized that i should try eating some animals again after 8 years of not, i cried for a week, and family members still tease me about what a *vegie* i used to be and i have to hold back tears. but my health has improved so much over these 4 yrs that i have changed my diet, that i really really know that i am meant to eat a high fat, high protien diet. when i was a vegetarian i suffered from chronic fatigue, depression, addiction, irritable bowel syndrome, dry hair and skin, kidney stones. all of these have improved significantly, some totally eliminated. as i said, i could not digest or assimilate nutrients from raw plants, so my observations are only based on me. i truly hope you can do it!

and yes, i think anorexics and some athletes have ammenorea (loss of menses) due to low body fat. have you found that you are able to keep your body fat up on the vegan diet? i couldnt.

 

[bebe luna]

well I followed a vegan raw foods diet for quite some time and was very athletic during that time (ballet, modern dance, ran 2-3 miles a day, and lifted weights); of course I had extremly low body fat... I still had my monthly period. My periods were light and lasted only about 4 days, free of any cramps or discomfort, but still I bled.

In Chinese Medicine a heavy or long (over 7 days) period is considered a sign of imbalance, even toxicity... but no bleeding is also seen as a sign of imbalance. Cramps, extreme bloating, PMS, and other menstrual discomforts are also seen as imbalance, and in my practice I have seen these discomforts decreased or relieved completely through bodywork, herbs, exercise, and dietary changes.

Often women with dietary deficiencies will have loss of period. in Chinese Medicine this is often related to "blood deficiency" and is seen in women who are protien & iron deficient. They are often very pale and weak as well, so it is clearly not a sign of good health.

IMO, our bodies are designed to bleed once during our monthly cycle. It is part of a cleansing process.

 

[pamamidwife]

Quote:

Originally posted by Nursing Mother INot true.....a women can't concieve if she doesn't bleed. The uterus needs the rich blood lining of the embyro to implant itself in.

I agree - although I wonder about the Red Tent days and how they didn't bleed nearly as long or as much as we did. Perhaps they bled less because of their diet.

A friend went to Guatamala and ate very little dairy at all, hardly any meat and said her periods were only 2-3 days, if that. Spotting and one full day of heavier bleeding. This seems to make sense.

 

[Yin Yang]

I have read the article long time ago and I find it very interesting too. I don't think it is impossible - it all makes perfect sense to me. And I don't think it applies to everyone eating raw....we are all individuals and what works for one may not work for others. But I notices that if I eat healthier and more vit.C (at least) my periods last only few days (1 or 2). I think it all depends on persons past and stage of health. But as I said I don't think it's impossible. And they talk about not bleeding not about not ovulating as many of you I think thought so.
I actually read something very similar to this in Wysong newsletter (www.wysong.net).

 

[3 little birds]

As regards bleeding being necessary to conceive, I would submit that ovulation is needed to conceive, not bleeding.

The article stated that although the endometrium thickens to prepare for possible conception, that ideally it is reabsorbed by the body and only a slight mucas discharge is expelled when no conception occurs (as occurs with wild animals eating their natural diet).

The Wysong article (from Pavlina's link) that I read mentioned, among other things, that modern women may have long/painful periods due to over-consuming Omega 6 fats (the bad ones) among other factors.

Sunbaby-So far we haven't had trouble keeping weight on (we aren't emaciated or anything) although initially we did lose extra weight. My husband lost about 20 pounds (he looks now like he did in college

) and I have lost about 8 pounds-I am back to the weight I was when I got married. Then we hit a plateau-which is good because we are exactly where we would like to be.
I am so glad that you found a diet that works for you-I never meant to imply with this topic that everyone should eat a raw diet, it just happened that my interest in raw eating brought me to this article.

 

[pumpkinhead]

One of the reasons that wild animals don't bleed is because they ONLY ovulate when they are ready to breed. They don't have a menstrual cycle per se. For most, it's a yearly or estrous cycle rather than a monthly (menstrual) one. Some animals even have what's called 'delayed implantation'. They ovulate, copulate, the ova is fertilized but doesn't implant until much later so as to avoid the birth of a litter in unfavourable condidtions. Mustalids can do this (weasals, marten, fishers etc.)

It's important to remember that the human animal is MUCH different from the wild one. Women menstruate, and have since the dawn of time. Our cycles are closely tied in with the cycles of the moon. The moon controls the fluids of the earth, i.e. the tides. It's mystical and magical

.

 

[pumpkinhead]

Quote:

after years of eating mostly enzyme-empty food, the body's enzyme reserves are seriously depleted. The organs involved - especially the pancreas, producer of many digestive enzymes - become enlarged from overwork, then exhausted, and finally fail altogether. Foods can't be properly digested and end up fermenting in the digestive tract, producing toxins that are absorbed into the bloodstream and deposited in the joints and soft tissues. Conditions like constipation, blood diseases, bleeding ulcers, gout and arthritis appear.

I have a few problems with this quote. First off, enzymes are biological catalysts. This means they can catalyse or enable a reaction to occur but are not changed or 'used up' in the process. Also, most enzymes already present in fruits etc (like amylases) are inactivated by the stomach acid and so are useless in digestion.

IT's just not a well put together article and there are LOTS of statements made without reference.