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Here's the article:<br><a href="http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2008/10/15/08gifted_ep.h28.html?tmp=87057853" target="_blank">http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/20...l?tmp=87057853</a><br><br>
What do you think?<br><br>
I'd like to know how children were deemed as no longer gifted. If it was based on achievement, wouldn't that be another issue entirely?<br><br>
In any case, the article made my mom worried for DD, that she'll "lose" her giftedness in public school. Now she's all for HSing her! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="thumbs up"> I guess DD is, too, because I think I mentioned before that DD said "School makes my imagination goggles foggy." <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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I read this too! It made me a little <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/hopmad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hopping mad">. What I thought it said was that if a student doesn't use their giftedness, they lose it. Now, I get that it needs to be fostered or it will be supressed, but LOSE it...I think not. How could school do that? If this is the case, how do we fix it!? GRRRRR!<br><br>
"DD said "School makes my imagination goggles foggy." " This quote really makes me sad, makes me want to hop on my soapbox and fix it all...if only I knew how! How old is your DD?
 

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I have a hard time believing what the article says. My gut tells me it has more to do with how the tests for giftedness are made. One big variable is experience. Take language assessments. You sit down with a child and go over words and meaning and synonyms with them, then it will affect their score. It doesn't mean they are gifted it means they have been exposed to the language more then another child. Now if the child is learning the words on their own with no real help then it could be a sign of a gifted child. And in that case, public school won't have all that much of an effect because they will still be looking up new words and seeking out exposure to them on their own.
 

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My understanding, and don't totally quote me on this...<br><br>
"gifted" means that you have an IQ of 110 or above, though, right? That's how I always understood it. You don't lose your IQ. I tested as gifted as a child and was grade skipped, etc. Later, my mom went nuts and I spent a great part of the rest of my years locked in a room (for months at a time). I didn't have any mental stimulation, or education. What I did do, however, is use my imagination a lot, and learn to cope with my situation.<br><br>
In the end, I still have the same IQ, but my social skills are lacking, and I don't have the level of education that many have. People that I know don't even know that I didn't have an education most of my life, though. I just have a hard time with some maths, like changing fractions to decimals.<br><br>
I turned around and took a test to get into college and passed it.<br><br>
I think you can..... um.... how would I put it.... you can stop using your abilities, but you don't lose them.<br><br>
That's only my opinion, though.<br><br>
Teri<br><br>
ETA: I do think you can lose some IQ points from doing certain drugs, though, or from a head injury, etc.
 

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Rising Sun, your probably have trouble with some math regardless of whether you had the same education as others or not. One of the things with giftedness is the atypical development. Really exceptional at somethings, not so much at others.<br><br>
You can techincally "loose" IQ points based on the time of day, the day, whether you had breakfast or sleep a decent amount the night before. If I don't get enough sleep, sometimes nothing makes sense to me. Even math which is one of the subjects I'm great at. Completely bombed a math test in high school cause I stayed out until 4 am the night before and no matter how many times I read the questions they just didn't compute.<br><br>
P.S. There are studies that show if your intoxicated (I think they used pot hehe) while preparing for a test, and intoxicated while taking the test you get a higher mark then if your just intoxicated for one of the two events. I probably shouldn't go into details about how that helped me out though.<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/shy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="innocent"> And it's not something recommended anyway.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">There are studies that show if your intoxicated (I think they used pot hehe) while preparing for a test, and intoxicated while taking the test you get a higher mark then if your just intoxicated for one of the two events. I probably shouldn't go into details about how that helped me out though. And it's not something recommended anyway.</td>
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That's interesting. I made liberal use of such things in college, and had a 4.0. One time I did not ahem.... have a joint... before a test and I got an 85. I just about flipped! I always figured it was because I have so much anxiety, though.<br><br>
Teri
 

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One thing that the article discussed was the disconnect between what is known about giftedness by specialists in psychology and how the schools handle identification and education for gifted students. That's clearly huge. The "pull-out" programs that I myself went through as a child and that I see used so often in the public schools really don't have any relationship to addressing the needs of accelerated learners, and I think they create a lot of the hostility to gifted education. Why should only so-called "smart" kids get to go to the art museum, or do hands-on experiments? My gifted daughter needs more difficult books, tougher language arts assignments and compacted math--we'll handle the music lessons and art museum trips on our own, thanks, or I'd rather see them spread equally, since really, all students could benefit from those. However, most kids simply do not need to do math at the speed that my daughter does, and <i>that's</i> what I could not get from my local public school.<br><br>
I also agree that schools should be assessing for giftedness every year. This one-shot and you're in (or out!) is nonsense. Also, at some point, access to accelerated education has to be limited for those students who will not put in the work. I had a friend in high school who wanted everyone to consider her "just as capable" as the kids in the AP courses, despite the fact that she wasn't willing to read the books, write the papers, or do the work. She may have had the potential, but she wasn't developing it.
 

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I didn't get to read the whole article b/c I didn't want to register with the site. I have to say though that I can think of so so many possible ways that the study could be flawed.<br><br>
Just thinking about my own HS experience, I'm sure I <i>appeared</i> less gifted in HS than I had in elementary school. I would say that the reality there was that I was just less inclined to care. My total lack of study skill was also begining to catch up with me.<br><br>
I know the reason I scored close to average when I took the SATs in HS was b/c I had tripped and fallen on my hand while I was out having a smoke and had to try to fill in the little circles while clutching a blood soaked tissue. When I took the SATs several years earlier to get into some gifted program, I had scored much better (though not as well as I might have since I got my second AF <i>ever</i> half way through the test.)<br><br>
I pretty sure that now that I spend my days chasing a toddler around that I would score as pretty average on most IQ or achievement type tests.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>eepster</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/12398155"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I didn't get to read the whole article b/c I didn't want to register with the site. I have to say though that I can think of so so many possible ways that the study could be flawed.<br><br><br></div>
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Sorry about that! I got it through an e-mail so I didn't have to register.<br><br>
And yes, I agree with you and the pps . . .it doesn't make sense.<br><br>
Bird Girl, I agree that museum trips and such would benefit EVERYONE. So many students do not have those opportunities with their families. Why should just the gifted students get the experiences that make people passionate about life and learning?
 

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Was the article about a book? What's the book title they are discussing?<br><br>
On the face of it, this reminds me of the Carol Dweck writings.
 

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I have no idea if it could happen with young kids but I am definitely less "gifted" than I was as a child.<br><br>
I blame it on having children <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"> but really its probably more a combination of lifestyle, not excercising my mind enough and probably most influentially the affect of not having my asynchronus development addressed so that the delays became more and more of a handicap on the underlying intellectual development as I got to a level where I actually needed those skills in order to learn. I think this happens to a lot of asynchronus gifted kids around the high school age or if not then, in college.
 

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I just wanted to chime in with this link for an article by Malcolm Gladwell from the Oct. 20th New Yorker. I thought it provided a really interesting discussion of the different ways that talent, high achievement, or whatever you want to call it, can manifest.<br><br><a href="http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/10/20/081020fa_fact_gladwell" target="_blank">http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2..._fact_gladwell</a>
 

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My theory:<br><br>
Children (and young adults/ adults) are not simple creatures where you push a button and out prints a report. Because intelligence is wrapped up in identity, and children are aware of this, there is a feedback mechanism (for lack of better phrase) that either reinforces "I am smart and can try this" or for a million reasons, self-protection being one, the child just doesn't try "I can't do it, I'm not capable."<br><br>
Why is it always in third grade that kids start underpreforming, underachieving (if they haven't already)? Why do their test scores suddenly drop? Because they aren't fools.<br><br>
As we grow older I think we tend to protect ourselves and maybe hold ourselves back more and more, and so it might be harder to get a true measure of intelligence due to psychological interference (if that makes sense).<br><br>
So it isn't purely a 'self-esteem' issue, but something like that... but more complex. What if the gifted program isn't worth being in anymore (shallow, just more work, stigmatized for being a 'geek') so kids drop out...
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>carmel23</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/12400715"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Why is it always in third grade that kids start underpreforming, underachieving (if they haven't already)?</div>
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I've not heard this before. Is there a source you've found for this?
 

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I only read the first part of the article, but I've thought about this before. I was in a gifted program when I was a kid. I was in for 3rd and 4th, I think. Then, I got kicked out. I always felt like I was above average, but not good enough for the gifted class. I really tried to get the concepts that came natural to the other kids in my classs, but I always felt inadequate. I was still in honors math throughout high school, but I was usually at a B or C level. My IQ has never really changed. I do think now that I'm lazy or just didn't have an interested in school. I still don't. I do think that I was much more advanced than other kids in the lower grades and more on par in the upper grades.<br><br>
My oldest is also in a gifted program at school. I love how their program works. She goes one day a week and has two or three subjects during that day. They are mostly geered towards being creative and thinking outside the box. I asked her if she feels like she's keeping up with the other kids and feels good about her work. She seems pretty happy with it. yeah!
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>supervee</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/12398781"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Was the article about a book? What's the book title they are discussing?<br><br>
On the face of it, this reminds me of the Carol Dweck writings.</div>
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I had a free moment to do the free registration and read the article. The book is this one:<br><a href="http://books.apa.org/books.cfm?id=4318051" target="_blank">http://books.apa.org/books.cfm?id=4318051</a><br><br>
...and LOL the foreword is written by Carol Dweck.<br><br>
While I would agree "academic talents can wax and wane" I would not believe that giftedness can be taught or go away. It, of course, depends on your definition of giftedness.<br><br>
I do find it exciting that in today's gifted research world, vs. the world when I was coming along, there is more the idea of giftedness in different areas, and not just The Number. I also like the growth mindset that Dweck writes about, and I think it is a strong argument that we do nurture and support our gifted kiddos, so they do keep growing and stretching themselves, just like all kids are meant to do.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>carmel23</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/12400715"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Why is it always in third grade that kids start underpreforming, underachieving (if they haven't already)? Why do their test scores suddenly drop?<br></div>
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I've heard that it has to do with the fact that around third grade emphasis changes from learning to read to reading to learn. This is seen many times in kids with Hyperlexia. These kids start reading (decoding) without instruction as toddlers or preschoolers and can appear quite gifted. But many of them have problems with comprehension and language processing. By the third grade, the hyperlexic child's classmates may have caught up with his decoding abilities and surpassed his reading comprehension skills. The child who was way ahead of the curve in kindergarten and first grade may be behind it in third grade.<br><br>
Obviously since hyperlexia is not common this is not a usual case. But it is an example of how "giftedness" might seem to go away.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Lollybrat</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/12402029"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I've heard that it has to do with the fact that around third grade emphasis changes from learning to read to reading to learn. ...</div>
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Thanks for one explanation! That makes sense. I imagine that switch to reading to learn is also difficult for kids who were tutored extensively in sounding out words without having the comprehension.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">gifted" means that you have an IQ of 110 or above</td>
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110 is an average IQ in most industrialized countries. 100 was average around the turn of the century. I read this in "What's Going on in There?" and in other books about IQ tests being skewed over time. It also discusses it here:<br><br><a href="http://iq-test.learninginfo.org/iq04.htm" target="_blank">http://iq-test.learninginfo.org/iq04.htm</a><br><br>
The following link suggests that giftedness "starts" around 130.<br><br><a href="http://www.iqtest-center.com/iq-scores.php" target="_blank">http://www.iqtest-center.com/iq-scores.php</a><br><br>
Wiki's IQ information is amazingly comprehensive:<br><br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ</a><br><br>
You would not expect a child to be labeled gifted or to get special education benefits unless she were in the top 10%, that is to say, with an IQ of at least 120. So if a child appears to be extremely bright but has an IQ of 110, what you are probably seeing is a function of upbringing and culture (lots of letters around, lots of books, verbal household) that is going to dwindle as the child spends less time around the parents and ALSO as the disadvantaged child with a similar IQ is able to benefit from school programs.<br><br>
That is not to speak to the changes in "giftedness" which I believe is poorly defined so as to be nearly meaningless among very young children, but it does say something about changes in IQ. IQ does not vary much in one person (I have gotten within 10 points of the same score for 15 tests taken over a 23-year period, including Internet tests and formal tests, and even after childbirth) but precociousness definitely will vary as it's more a function of environment.
 

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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Lollybrat</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/12402029"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I've heard that it has to do with the fact that around third grade emphasis changes from learning to read to reading to learn. This is seen many times in kids with Hyperlexia. These kids start reading (decoding) without instruction as toddlers or preschoolers and can appear quite gifted. But many of them have problems with comprehension and language processing. By the third grade, the hyperlexic child's classmates may have caught up with his decoding abilities and surpassed his reading comprehension skills. The child who was way ahead of the curve in kindergarten and first grade may be behind it in third grade.<br><br>
Obviously since hyperlexia is not common this is not a usual case. But it is an example of how "giftedness" might seem to go away.</div>
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This is an interesting example, but not really what I was thinking. A child who has been reading to learn for four or more years before third grade won't suddenly *cease* reading to learn.<br>
I know for a fact that my son reads to gain information. He constantly tells me about this railroad merging with that one to become another one and on and on <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wild.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wild"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/blahblah.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="blah blah"> .<br><br>
I don't see how this would suddenly change because the curriculum has finally allowed this to happen. I could see how the children who were reading but not comprehending would then fall out, but that alone can't explain the drop in test scores for 3rd grade.<br><br>
I have a sense that kids are aware of themselves and either read too fast and don't slow down to really read the question, or they don't care because they already think of themselves as "not smart."<br><br>
And a lot of gifted kids *don't feel* smart, they aren't aware of it because of so many reasons....<br><br>
Just google "achievement scores for third grade declines" (without quotes) and you'll get all kinds of stuff. A lot will say blah blah "harder tests" blah blah, but skip to the third grade specifically:<br><br>
here is one example from <a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9506E1DE1E39F93AA3575http://www.mothering.com/discussions/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=124020295C0A96F958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all" target="_blank">the NY times:</a><br><br>
"Last year, 51.7 percent of third graders were reading at or above grade level; this year, the number dropped to 42.9 percent. Even after adjustment, third-grade scores dropped 3.5 percentage points.<br><br>
In math, third-grade scores plummeted, to 47.4 percent from 64.3 percent last year; even after adjustment, the third-grade math score dropped 13.6 percentage points. "<br><br>
I can't help but think that it has more to do with the psychology of ramming tests down kid's throats for years, but that is my opinion (shooting from the hip, here).
 
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