[polyhymnia]

I know this is probably best suited to a lawyer but I have not got one yet and I am just looking for some thoughts to tide me over.

If a couple is married and have joint accounts, is there any legal reason why one partner would not be able to take and use that money without permission from the other? Could that person be obligated to return it in case of divorce or separation? (Say the money was used for a deposit on an apartment.)

Similarly, in a divorce in a community property state, can both parties mutually agree that one person will be responsible for particular debts (ie, can one person agree that the other person can have the car and waive responsibility for continuing to make car payments, and one person agree to be solely responsible for that person's student loans) or is everything automatically required to be divided in two?

MTA: See my post #8 for further question)

 

[Crunchy*VT*Mom]

I don't know the answer to your questions, but

 

[notkept]

Quote:

Originally Posted by crayolaab I know this is probably best suited to a lawyer but I have not got one yet and I am just looking for some thoughts to tide me over. If a couple is married and have joint accounts, is there any legal reason why one partner would not be able to take and use that money without permission from the other? Could that person be obligated to return it in case of divorce or separation? (Say the money was used for a deposit on an apartment.) Similarly, in a divorce in a community property state, can both parties mutually agree that one person will be responsible for particular debts (ie, can one person agree that the other person can have the car and waive responsibility for continuing to make car payments, and one person agree to be solely responsible for that person's student loans) or is everything automatically required to be divided in two?

Yes, a person can be obligated to return monies of the courts find that it was ill used. I wish I could remember the term..... I'll google: dissipation. "Dissipation is generally defined as the use of marital property for the sole benefit of one spouse, for a purpose unrelated to the marriage at a time when the marriage is undergoing an irreconcilable breakdown.2 A finding of dissipation is possible even if the dissipating party did not receive a personal benefit from the dissipation of assets.3 The spouse charged with dissipation has the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence how marital funds were spent.4" Look up the rules in your state.

And, yes, you and your spouse can agree between yourselves to distribute assets and debts in whatever way you please. HOWEVER, the lender is NOT bound by that agreement, even if it's signed by the judge. And this can come back to bite you. If the other party doesn't comply to the divorce agreement, your recourse is to go in front of the judge to find the other person in contempt. That still doesn't bind the lender, though. I agreed to take over the payments on my vehicle after my divorce. I planned to pay it off with my share of X's 401k. My X insisted that I needed to immediately put the loan in my name and pay him off. I couldn't do that, I wasn't able to get a loan. He came and took the license plates (not illegal...it was "his" car) and called my insurance company to tell them that I did not own the car and was committing fraud. @@ (Typing this out makes me feel that yeah, I SHOULD take him to court for the $3500 he owes me. lol) In order to register and insure my car, I had to borrow the money to pay it off.

 

[lalaland42]

I'll tell you what I know from my divorce. (I was divorced in King County) It was a little different because my ex disappeared (with $2000 of my student loan money) and I had to file the papers and get a default judgement against him.

1. He was supposed to pay me back the $2k but never did and I was told by my lawyer it wouldn't be worth it to fight over such a small amount. I could have gone to small claims and had the money garnished but first I would need to know where he worked. It is common for the common monies to be used for a separate apartment tho so I don't know how that works.

2. There is a spot in the divorce decree where to put the debts and who owes what. IIRC for car loans or mortgages, if it is assigned to one party, that party needs to refi the thing to get the other party off the loan. Credit cards and bank accounts can be assigned to one person by agreement.

HTH

BTW, I don't think you've been married long enough to qualify for community property. Anything earned before your wedding wouldn't count.

 

[polyhymnia]

Thanks, lalaland. That's super helpful, I'm in KC too. I didn't realize that about length of marriage - is it different if you've been living together, etc since before the marriage? We have lived together 5 years and got the car together 3 years ago. I am happy for him to keep the car and trust that he will keep making payments but just in case I figure it's good to knw what's covered legally.

 

[BellaLuna Rayne]

You can go down to the regional justice center and go to the family law facilitator. They will help you with all your questions and even help you fill out the paper work.

 

[polyhymnia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BellaLuna Rayne You can go down to the regional justice center and go to the family law facilitator. They will help you with all your questions and even help you fill out the paper work.

yeah, I know, but it's really really busy at work right now (month end) and I can't get away but I think I need to leave before I can meet with anyone, and I was hoping I could use money from the joint account to do it. I think it's probably a safer bet not to; I'm going to try to get some out of my investment account.

 

[polyhymnia]

OK I am trying to do up a budget to make sure i can afford an apartment. these are the categories I have. what am I forgetting?

rent
electricity
internet/cable (not sure what kind yet - wont have a tv unless i get one free)
phone (either landline or cell - my contract is up in 2 weeks so i can drop it or i can renew, not sure which i'll do)
food
renter's ins
cats
water/sewer
laundry
student loan 1
student loan 2
household ( to get furniture, dishes, etc - everything i am leaving behind - gradually - i do have a bed and dresser, bedside table, can probably have a couple of chairs, etc)
savings

 

[lalaland42]

In Seattle, water/sewer is usually included. If you get an apartment with hookups, it also generally comes with a washing machine.

I don't think community property counts living together. What I mean by "not counting" is that you haven't been married long enough to acquire stuff/money together. You should definitely insist he refinance the car loan. If he skips payments to screw you, your credit will take a hit and you will have little recourse.

Don't forget cat deposit.

 

[polyhymnia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lalaland42 In Seattle, water/sewer is usually included. If you get an apartment with hookups, it also generally comes with a washing machine. I don't think community property counts living together. What I mean by "not counting" is that you haven't been married long enough to acquire stuff/money together. You should definitely insist he refinance the car loan. If he skips payments to screw you, your credit will take a hit and you will have little recourse. Don't forget cat deposit.

Got it. We've got lots of stuff together cause we've been living together for so long. Plus all of our awesome wedding gifts that I am going to be really sad to leave behind. Like my fantastic new cookware.

I don't think he'd skip payments to screw me because it would also screw him, and he needs spotless credit for his career and for his own self-worth. It is very important to him to be financially successful and I do not see that changing at all. But I guess probably it's worth a re-fi. Sucks cause we have a great rate. Maybe he'll choose to just pay it off. I guess that's an option.

I've got a separate list of deposits, I'm just trying to sort out regular monthly stuff. Glad to know about sewer/water because I am clueless - it is currently covered by our condo association fees along with garbage but I don't know what the situation will be in a new place. I am hoping I can ask the places I am looking at and get some idea of utils.

 

[lalaland42]

Don't leave everything!

And I think you are technically supposed to send back the wedding presents if you were married < 6mos or 1 yr.

 

[duckpond]

And don't forget the possibility of free internet access at the public libraries and some coffee shops, etc. And FreeCycle is a great place to acquire temporary household goods while you're building up your budget for quality replacements. Also CraigsList.

But, I think you should really look at splitting up the household goods you two have together. Just because you are the one leaving does not mean you have to walk away from everything.

Good luck!

 

[annethcz]

First off,

Second, I didn't see heating expenses listed on your monthly budget list. Sometimes that's included in rent, sometimes not.

Also, will you have a car? Even if you're not paying a car payment, you'll still have insurance.

I agree that you should split the household items equally. When my sister and her exDH got divorced, I helped her get everything packed up. They had very detailed lists about who got what, down to who kept which set of silverware. Unless you think it would be easier psychologically, there's no reason to walk away from all of the things you owned jointly with your DH.

 

[polyhymnia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lalaland42 Don't leave everything! And I think you are technically supposed to send back the wedding presents if you were married < 6mos or 1 yr.

right, hence leaving it all

He can deal with sending it back.

 

[polyhymnia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by annethcz First off, Second, I didn't see heating expenses listed on your monthly budget list. Sometimes that's included in rent, sometimes not. Also, will you have a car? Even if you're not paying a car payment, you'll still have insurance. I agree that you should split the household items equally. When my sister and her exDH got divorced, I helped her get everything packed up. They had very detailed lists about who got what, down to who kept which set of silverware. Unless you think it would be easier psychologically, there's no reason to walk away from all of the things you owned jointly with your DH.

I included heating under "electric" because afaik all the apts around here heat w/electric. No car. Maybe some day but not for now. I mostly walk & ride the bus now and will continue to do so.

The problem with household stuff is that pretty much everything is either mine (I'm keeping that stuff!!), his (he will keep that) or wedding gifts. We just did a huge purge of "stuff" and there is not much left that is "ours" that wasn't a wedding gift. I guess the only "ours" things I can think of are the cat tree (I'll take that with the cats) and the down comforter. He can keep that.

 

[polyhymnia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by duckpond And don't forget the possibility of free internet access at the public libraries and some coffee shops, etc. And FreeCycle is a great place to acquire temporary household goods while you're building up your budget for quality replacements. Also CraigsList. But, I think you should really look at splitting up the household goods you two have together. Just because you are the one leaving does not mean you have to walk away from everything. Good luck!

Oh, I know I can use free internet places - I prefer to have it at home, and can afford it. I am going to be pretty isolated for awhile (don't have any local friends that aren't "ours" and they were his first) so I really prefer not to give up my connection to distant friends/family. I have a good salary I just want to be sure I am counting everything because there are two price ranges of apartments and I would LOVE one of the slightly more expensive but more conveniently located ones, but want to be sure I can afford it first.

 

[AngelBee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by crayolaab right, hence leaving it all He can deal with sending it back.

Off topic: Have you both sought help for the marriage? I am so sorry you are going through this. You have been together quite a while. Is there any chance of fixing this?

:

 

[polyhymnia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngelBee Off topic: Have you both sought help for the marriage? I am so sorry you are going through this. You have been together quite a while. Is there any chance of fixing this? :

No, but thank you for your concern.

 

[AngelBee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by crayolaab No, but thank you for your concern.

Pm me if you need anything. My heart is breaking for you

 

[lalaland42]

Quote:

Originally Posted by crayolaab I included heating under "electric" because afaik all the apts around here heat w/electric. No car. Maybe some day but not for now. I mostly walk & ride the bus now and will continue to do so. The problem with household stuff is that pretty much everything is either mine (I'm keeping that stuff!!), his (he will keep that) or wedding gifts. We just did a huge purge of "stuff" and there is not much left that is "ours" that wasn't a wedding gift. I guess the only "ours" things I can think of are the cat tree (I'll take that with the cats) and the down comforter. He can keep that.

Yes. All apts there heat with electric.

ETA: PM me if you need anything. I have friends/family in the area and I lived there most of my life. No longer sadly or you could stay with me.