[RowansDad]

Story here:
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/15...essionsP.shtml

"''The Army is fighting this war and needs more money," said a longtime Army official who, like other Pentagon officials interviewed for this article, declined to be named, citing fear of reprisal. ''Morale in the Pentagon is pretty poor. They still think they can do more with less. It is one element of Bush's support that is eroding."

"He said that he is not enamored with Kerry but that his reservations about the current administration are growing.

"It is people like him whom Kerry is seeking to enlist."

 

[RowansDad]

Somewhat related to the OP article, here are some observations from D-Day and other WW II vets on the 60th anniversary of the invasion of Nazi-held France:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...isited?mode=PF

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...tearns?mode=PF
He "doesn't like talking politics," as he put it, but asserted that he "doesn't feel too good about what's going on over there in Iraq."

"I guess you'd say I am pretty soft-hearted," he added."

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...korupa?mode=PF

"As far as Iraq goes, we shouldn't be there. They're fighting for the oil fields. I don't blame France for being against the war. . . . Did they give us good reasons for why our guys are getting killed? I don't think so."

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art..._quinn?mode=PF

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...ldrich?mode=PF

Reflecting on the French opposition to the war in Iraq, Aldrich said: "I think they were right to turn down the Iraq war. I would have been satisfied if we had gone in with the United Nations, but I don't think going in by ourselves did us or anyone else much service. . . . That's no way to pull together."

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...signol?mode=PF

"I feel for the guys who are in Iraq. The tanks over there were getting banged up just like my tank was getting banged up. . . . I think the war over there in Iraq was a mistake. I have to say that.
"Times are different. Back then everyone was helping out, the country was united, and the war was the right thing. . . . I don't know these days, everything is less clear."

I wonder if the Hannitys, the Caulters, the O'Reilly's and the Limaughs of this country would have the stones to call these vets bad Americans?

 

[librarymom]

I don't doubt the stones. Just wanted to say thanks for these articles--interesting reading and it is a MIGHT encouraging that others are speaking out.

 

[RowansDad]

More military folk's views of the current misuse of our armed forces:

"Maybe changing Memorial Day to Consequence Day would foster deeper, more reality-based thinking and more public debate before we ever again allow the dogs of war to be unleashed over a phony Gulf of Tonkin attack - which Lyndon Johnson used to get us stuck in Vietnam - or the similarly trumped-up weapons of mass destruction/Sept. 11 terrorist connection that George W. Bush used to make his case against Saddam and sink our nation into the treacherous Iraqi quicksand."

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/c....7045875468726

 

[Tigerchild]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowansDad I wonder if the Hannitys, the Caulters, the O'Reilly's and the Limaughs of this country would have the stones to call these vets bad Americans?

I've heard everyone but O'Reilly say so already.

It pisses me off, but you know, it's also kind of funny, since none of them (maybe O'Reilly?) actually SERVED in the military.

I remember how the Right would mock and spit on Clinton for not serving and therefore being unqualified to lead the military. And now, not even serving and being decorated (Kerry) is enough for them--you've got to goose-step behind the right ideology too.

Frightening.

But to tell you the truth, the seeds of Bush-hatred in the armed forces were sown with Rumsfeld placed at the head of the DoD. The man was already hated for his previous roles, and considering how he's burned every conceivable bridge with the JCS, Meyers, the field commanders, the VA, you name it, really...and Bush sticks with him...contrary to popular belief on this board, military people aren't dumb.

Now, they may not be all that excited about Kerry (and who could blame them, really.) But you won't find many true Bush fans in the service (at least those who are career, so they care about what's going on), even if they defend him in public or stay tight-lipped about it.

 

[TiredX2]

 

[RowansDad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigerchild I've heard everyone but O'Reilly say so already

My mistake. I should have included that I'd like to see them call these folks "bad Americans" to their face.

Another bit of information that people should remember is that membes of the Army JAG corp warned the administration that its loose views of the Geneva Conventions would get the U.S. in a vat of hot water:

"A group of senior military lawyers were so concerned about changes in the rules designed to safeguard prisoners during interrogation that they sought help outside the Defense Department, according to a New York lawyer who headed a recent study of how prisoners have been treated in the war on terrorism...."

"...The military lawyers complained that the Pentagon was creating "an atmosphere of legal ambiguity," Horton said. "What's happened is not an accident. It is exactly what they were warning about a year ago," he said."

Given the ever growing list of evidence of Dubya Inc.'s disregard for the military's recommendations and expertise, it is beyond me how it military and defense professionals would trust these guys as far as they could spit.

 

[jeyer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigerchild I've heard everyone but O'Reilly say so already. It pisses me off, but you know, it's also kind of funny, since none of them (maybe O'Reilly?) actually SERVED in the military.

O'Reilly didn't serve either.

 

[Tigerchild]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowansDad Given the ever growing list of evidence of Dubya Inc.'s disregard for the military's recommendations and expertise, it is beyond me how it military and defense professionals would trust these guys as far as they could spit.

Here's the rub though. The military folks DON'T. Plain and simple. Even retirees who are close to the action (esp. those who might get recalled due to connections/experience) HATE Bush and Rumsfeld. They probably would rather die than admit that to a civvie (perhaps that's part of the problem). But that would be like the grand poobah of AP admiting that the thought of washing cloth diapers makes them hurl. Ain't going to happen around the mundanes, where you've got to keep the face.

"Defense professionals", however, are in a slightly different ballgame. The DoD guys are bureaucrats who will never be called to wield anything more than a stapler. They can afford to be pollyanna theorists (hello, Rummy! Hello, Wolfowitz! Hello, Cheney!). And there is a lot of bad blood between the military and DoD. The defense professionals also tend to have vested interests in doing dumb shit like this, because they get kickbacks from the corporations that allow it. If you're in the military, you actually have to leave before you can get the presents like board positions and advisory fees.

The DoD guys and the defense-related corporations have LOTS of reasons to love the Bush administration. The military guys have to figure out how to get the least amount of their kids killed as a result...and it's not very easy given what they have to work with. I guess you really have to understand the culture as to why there is not more open rebellion. But man, if you do, I've never seen such open scorn by folks in uniform during a press conference than I have with this administration. If looks and body language could kill, Rumsfeld would have been a scorch mark on the podium from the very first press conference about the Iraq war.

 

[RowansDad]

Hooray!
Gen.: Troops in Iraq now have body armor

"As late as March, some soldiers headed for Iraq were still buying their own body armor, despite assurances from the military that the equipment would be available before they were in harm's way."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/printe...20Body%20Armor

Paaaaaa-thetic.

BTW, does anyone remember the high, holy hell GOPers raised during the Somolia intervention when it was charged that the U.S. troops there didn't have sufficient equipment? Recall that Lee Aspin, Secretary of Defense, resigned after the after 18 Americans were killed there while conducting a mission that Bush the First had conceived. Another swell example of Dubya Inc. "taking responsibility".