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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Here is a wonderful article tackling the difficult question of the immunocompromised. I thought it would be a great springboard for discussion.

https://medium.com/@sb442no/the-truth-about-vaccines-and-the-immunocompromised-b08033549932

She does cite the JHU notice about vaccine shedding that was later changed with no stated scientific rationale. She could have gotten her point across citing St. Jude's, but it's a minor nitpick.

Anyway, let's chat about it!

The problem with the IM narrative is that it’s not just a little bit of a lie; it’s really a thundering herd kind of a lie. It’s not a lie you could drive a truck through, it’s a lie you could really drive a giant convoy through, as we will now explain.
 

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I suspect being sanctimonious around vaccines and the immune compromised is counter productive.

I wonder if the immune compromised appreciate having themselves invoked in vaccine wars. While I suspect some do, I equally suspect some don't.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
There were some cancer survivors and other immunocompromised people speaking out against SB277. So yes, I suspect there are a good many who are tired of getting misrepresented and exploited as human mascots for the vaccine compliance cause.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Oops. :shy Added the link.
 

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Ok, my first problem with this article is using the reportable communicable diseases table to try to convey risks to school children. Q fever? Tularemia? Hantavirus? Smallpox? SARS, Yellow Fever... etc, etc

Yeah... you don't pick those things up at school. At least not in normal situations.

But of course, IM people are at risk of minor things, like colds, too. Too bad we haven't found an effective way to stop cold virus from circulating, other than handwashing and basic hygiene.

None of this justifies not vaccinating for things that can be prevented. Because IM kids are vulnerable to colds, too, doesn't mean that measles should spread freely in the community.
 

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None of this justifies not vaccinating for things that can be prevented. Because IM kids are vulnerable to colds, too, doesn't mean that measles should spread freely in the community.
One does not need to justify not vaccinating.

Vaccination poses risks to those who undego it - as such they, or their parents, can opt out if they do not want to accept those risks.
 
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Making an argument that vaccination does not matter in public schools is an attempt to justify not vaccinating.
It doesn't matter if one needs to do it or not. They are unsuccessful in trying if the best argument they present is "other things can kill people too."
Things like colds and Q fever and syphillis.
 

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Making an argument that vaccination does not matter in public schools is an attempt to justify not vaccinating.
It doesn't matter if one needs to do it or not. They are unsuccessful in trying if the best argument they present is "other things can kill people too."
Things like colds and Q fever and syphillis.
The argument is that children with serious immune problems will be safe in schools if vaccination rates are higher. The counter argument is that it is impossible for children with serious immune problems to be be safe in a school setting. And therefore justifying kicking thousands of children out of school in order to make it SAFE for children with serious immune problems is nonsense.

The argument is not between:
1) Everyone quit vaccinating
2) Everyone has to get every single vaccine currently available and every new vaccine which is recommended.

The argument is that kicking all of the children out of schools who are not completely up to date on every single vaccine won't make it safe for children with serious immune problems. All that would be accomplished would be to deprive some children of education.
 

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Making an argument that vaccination does not matter in public schools is an attempt to justify not vaccinating.

Yes, and perhaps they shouldn't. Not vaccinating is the default - the onus should be on others to justify vaccination. We need to stop playing defense. You cannot justify a medical procedure in another short of the other being a very sick child with non-compliant parents, so good luck with that.


It doesn't matter if one needs to do it or not. They are unsuccessful in trying if the best argument they present is "other things can kill people too."
Things like colds and Q fever and syphillis.

Actually, they had a number of arguments - and some were indeed stronger than the "other things can kill, too," such as the personal responsibility issue, as well as pointing out that adults, who compromise about 10-20% of the school population have no such rules around mandatory vaccines.
Kathy
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
If the article has one flaw, it's the failure to include information about vaccine failure. The mumps, pertussis, influenza (both vaccine-targeted and not), and chicken pox cases floating so prevalently among vaccinated children can prove deadly to the immumocompromised children whose parents were misled to believe that they were somehow "safe" in a low-exemption school.

Imagine a large battlefield complete with explosions, machine guns, air bombs, and snipers. Now imagine telling one of these defenseless children, "It's OK. We deactivated all the land mines. You're safe to go out there now."

Or why not just say, "It's OK. Everybody in the classroom is vaccinated against this handful of diseases. You're perfectly safe now!"

The world is a microbiologic battlefield for the immunocompromised. If one of them were my children, I'd fight like a tiger to avoid a classroom setting.
 

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I don't hear the argument as being that they will be totally safe, but that they will be safer. All kids are safer in communities where communicable diseases are not spreading. So it really goes back to the same debate about whether vaccines work to control the spread of disease, and if they are also safe.

Assuming vaccines are safe, and that they work, then all kids and people will be safer in communities where vaccination rates are high enough to confer protection even to the unvaccinated or immunocompromised.
 

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Safer isn't good enough if your child can be killed by chickenpox or influenza or a cold. Because even 100% vaccination of all the children in a classroom cannot guarantee that someone won't catch one of those illnesses.

And convincing a parent that there child is safe enough when they aren't is bad medicine.
 

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Safer isn't good enough if your child can be killed by chickenpox or influenza or a cold. Because even 100% vaccination of all the children in a classroom cannot guarantee that someone won't catch one of those illnesses.

And convincing a parent that there child is safe enough when they aren't is bad medicine.
Fair enough. No one can guarantee anything in life. I'd expect parents of seriously ill children to be among the group who understands that.
I don't resent them for pleading for seemingly normal life experiences for their children. I don't resent healthcare workers and legislators for wanting to make that a little bit easier for them, either.
 

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Normal life experiences required for children who are at risk if they catch a cold.

However it is okay to deprive thousands of children of access to schools because they MIGHT at some point be able to spread illness.

Disregarding the fact that children who are 100% up to date on vaccines can also spread illness, including illnesses for which they have received vaccines.

Disregarding the fact that a child who has Hep B can attend school and their medical condition doesn't have to be disclosed. A child who doesn't have Hep B, but hasn't been vaxed shouldn't be able to attend school, because they are dangerous to the child who has immune problems.

The whole game is simply a matter of exploiting children who are ill and the goal is to force more children to comply with the very much too big US vaccine schedule.
 

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My analysis of the actual points made in the article linked in the OP

Teachers vaccination rates don't have to be disclosed. So a teacher could be hacking whooping cough all over the class (vaxed or not, of course, doesn't matter) and disclosing vax rates of the children will do what?

The point that keeps being brought up--that some of the reportable illnesses are rare and unusual--but not all of them. Influenza for example is supposedly very common and influenza vaccination rates will not be reported.

Next point: a mother with an actual child who was severely immune-compromised explains that even with most children vaxed, her child could rarely attend school because so many illnesses were going around.
Despite a nearly 100% vaccine compliance rate at our school, there were regular outbreaks of shingles, occurring after chicken pox vaccine boosters, influenza and other illnesses.
Then there is a handy chart covering all the exceptions who can be in the classroom. Aides. We already mentioned teachers. A child who got vaccinated but didn't respond to all of the vaccines with good immunity. And many more examples.

A long discussion of the risks of live vaccines. Even if some of them are at low risk of shedding, it is still a risk.

Perhaps we should discuss the whole article?
 

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I'm immunocompromised. I wash my hands, stay home if I hear there is a bug going around and I dont really care about vaccination rates. I just treat every place like it could make me sick, because it can. Oddly enough, I take lots of vitamin D and probiotics, and I have friends that actually get sick more often and more severely than I do. Its my job to keep me healthy, and I cant control what other people do. I am not allowed to get live virus vaccines until I have been off my medication for at least 6 months. When immunocompromised enough, something as simple as a cold can lead to a secondary infection that can be lethal over time. So really there is no safety. You can either be around people or you cant.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I edited my first post because I was wrong about the article being written by a former drug company researcher. The anonymous team of authors interviewed her and then footnoted her credentials, which I mistook to be the about-an-author bit. (I've met Oregonians who fear personal and professional repercussions for speaking out, so I totally support the anonymity).

At a more careful reading, I realized that the 67 disease mentioned in the article aren't all of the diseases and illnesses out there; they're just the legally reportable ones. If you wrote a list of every possible infectious disease that a child could catch in the classroom, that list would look a lot larger. Common classroom ailments like Cocksackie virus, Fifths Disease, norovirus, and contagious ILI would send an immunocompromised child out on a stretcher. :(
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
So let's summarize why invoking the name of the immunocompromised is a poor way to push for vaccine schedule compliance.

1. Some vaccines required for school admission don't even transmit casually in classrooms, (e.g. tetanus, Hep A, Hep B, HPV), so they're moot.

2. Even without non-medical exemptions, complete protection will never be attained because a classroom, at any time, may contain A) teachers, staff, volunteers, and visitors who may not be up-to-date, B) HIV+ and Hep B+ children who are legally allowed to attend school, C) low-immunity and non-responders to vaccines D) kids vaccinated for pertussis who are unaware that their immunity has waned E) conditional entrants who are not yet fully vaccinated, F) homeless children who don't require a record, and G) a large number and any combination of pathogens not covered, targeted, or protected by vaccines but could seriously endanger the immunocompromised.

3. Even the immunocompromised can received most, if not all, vaccines.

4. Anyone who is afraid that their vaccines will stop working around unvaccinated children should fear the medically exempted child with as much fervor and terror in their hearts as they fear the non-medically exempted one.

5. Vaccines fail. All the time.

6. Immunocompromised children are therefore much safer learning outside of the classroom.

Am I missing anything?
 
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