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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Please?<br><br>
A friend of mine wrote me this, to which I replied "That sounds like an awful lot of misinformation but let me see if I can get the facts straight for you"....so can anyone help?<br><br>
Again, PLEASE? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/innocent.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="shy"><br><br>
I'm paraphrasing this so mods please don't delete!<br><br>
"The more people who come down with disease, the more the microbe replicates. The more it replicates, the more there is a chance that the disease will mutate into one that is not recognized by the immune system, rendering the vaccine useless.<br><br>
"If that microbe does mutate into something that is not recognized by the vaccine, it has little advantage if it has to compete with all the others of it's kind. (what does he mean by this???) In an area with wide spread vaccination, that mutated disease can thrive and take hold as a strain."<br><br><b><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><i>HUH?</i></span></b>
 

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If I'm understanding him correctly, he actually is right when it comes to a couple of the diseases/vaccines...namely, Hi and S.Pneumo.<br>
But nothing like that has happened with any of the viral diseases, though, although it could very well happen with HPV/Gardisil.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
mamakay - I understand that the USE of the vaccine has caused those problems, though. Hes saying (sorry - my apostrophe doesnt work at the moment) that without vaccines the diseases will mutate anyway, and that its the vaccines that keep them under control. If we let disease run its course, then all vaccines will be useless because the strains will be so mutated they wont do any good.<br><br>
Make sense? Anyway, Hes big-time pro-vax and says that without the vaxes, diseases would mutate so much passing from person to person that theyd kill us in the end.
 

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Seems like it is the other way around in real life.<br><br>
Where you get huge death rates from disease is the first round of exposure to a "new" disease. Smallpox and measles in the Americas, for example. After a few hundred years of exposure, you get mutual adaptation and fewer people die, unless they happen to be living in totally nasty conditions, in which case the death rate will be a bit higher.<br><br>
Certain medical interventions seem to be able to make diseases worse. Some examples:<br><br>
1)the vaxes that push out one strain (HIB) and allow other strains to take over<br>
2)antibiotics, which become useless due to the development of resistant strains (the diseases aren't actually becoming worse, they are becoming harder to treat with the available drugs)<br>
3)stuff like c-difficile (sp?) which has become worse due to the purple pill and related drugs, which screw up the digestive acid balance and allow bugs to bloom<br><br>
Why don't you ask your friend for an example of a disease that became more virulent because of a lapse in vaxing?
 

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That's a load of crap.<br>
I have no idea how to refute something so totally out of touch with reality.<br><br>
Ask him for evidence.<br>
Or if the same thing holds true for antibiotics.<br>
And why humanity hasn't been eradicated by varicella yet.<br><br>
Or hell, how we have animals on earth, period. There's a lot of undervaccinated wildlife out there, you know?
 

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logic would come to the conclusion that chemically fiddling around with something would cause it to mutate more rather than just letting it run its natural course.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks all - when he said it I was shocked, like - you've gotta be kidding me.<br><br>
But I didn't know how to reply because it was just too far out there. And then I started wondering if he knew something I didn't, and, well....you know.<br><br>
Now I know. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Sancta</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7264448"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Anyway, Hes big-time pro-vax and says that without the vaxes, diseases would mutate so much passing from person to person that theyd kill us in the end.</div>
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Wow. It's just a miracle that humankind survived before vaxes were even created. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/dizzy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Dizzy">: He does seem rather out of touch with reality and looks like he's talking out of his butt.
 

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<a href="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr4907a2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr4907a2.htm</a><br><br>
yes, you give him this and say, yes, vaccines wreak havoc with all sorts of things.<br><br>
Here is the CDC stating that the HiB vaccine basically CAUSED tons of cases, and some deaths from meningococcal meningitis so they had to develop the Prevnar to deal with that.<br><br>
When we start to lessen some organism, another organism steps into its biological niche and it might just be worse than the first one. Nowadays more gram-negative bacteria prevails, and is far more resistant to antimicrobial forces...see all those kids with repeat ear infections...
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>lioralourie</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7270376"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">When we start to lessen some organism, another organism steps into its biological niche and it might just be worse than the first one.</div>
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Beautifully put, may I quote you in my siggy?
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Sancta</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7264922"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">But I didn't know how to reply because it was just too far out there. And then I started wondering if he knew something I didn't, and, well....you know.</div>
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<br>
I've experienced that online. When someone says something completely out there, but in a condescending and overly confident tone, sometimes their confidence can tend to throw you off. You're sitting there thinking, <i>What the??? Well, there must be some element of truth to it, for him to speak so surely....</i> Then you look it up and they're so far from the mark it's hard to even argue with them, because it's too absurd for anyone to have bothered researching a way to debunk it. It would be like looking for research to debunk the idea that women are the ones to bear children, not men. Of course there's no research to debunk that idea. There probably won't be any research to debunk your friend's idea, either, but he won't be able to find any to support it, if that's any consolation.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Plummeting</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7272118"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">There probably won't be any research to debunk your friend's idea, either, but he won't be able to find any to support it, if that's any consolation.</div>
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There you go. Ask him to provide you with sources and information to support the stuff he's saying. If he gives you some stuff that should help give you a jumping off point to look up info to refute it. And if he doesn't well then he's probably talking out his hiney and it may make him stop and think for at least a split second.
 

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Vaccines (and antibiotics) put an evolutionary pressure on the disease strains that they are meant to eradicate. The "biological imperative" for every "living" thing is to replicate - vaccines prevent this replication, so strains that ARE able to replicate (i.e. vaccine-resistant and antibiotic-resistant organisms) are the ones that prevail. This is an irrefutable fact, it is basic natural selection. Your friend is completely out to lunch!!
 

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hi, Herthelde<br><br>
Sure, that'd be great! My name is Liora Pearlman. (just kidding. you'don't have to put that!)<br><br>
glad to have stuck a chord with you!
 

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Thanks Liora. Signature is now updated <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>MamaInTheBoonies</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7264563"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Basic fact of life-diseases want to survive and do NOT want to kill their hosts.</div>
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Yup.<br><br>
We read a really interesting article in one of my anthro classes that talked about the most successful diseases quickly mutate from immediately killing their hosts to being benign enough to keep them alive. A disease that doesn't mutate to the degree that it keeps it's host alive as long as possible will run its course and die out quickly because all it can't keep spreading and replicating with all of the hosts dead. They, like all living things, have the drive to replicate.
 
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