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Can we talk? Re: Solter

2K views 39 replies 20 participants last post by  ACsMom 
#1 ·
I'm reading "The Aware Baby" and finding it very interesting, but I wanted to know what other people think. For those of you who have read it, do you believe her theory that babies sometimes need to have a good cry in-arms, and that things like nursing/rocking/bouncing can actually serve to prevent the needed crying and cause a build-up of emotions? Have any of you tried this with your babes?

I've been thinking about this with my dd, who nurses very frequently day and night, and definitely uses it as a soother even when she's not hungry. I've never seen anything wrong with this and in fact have encouraged it, partly b/c I have low supply issues anyway and it helps to have the stimulation. But Solter has me thinking - there are many times Avery fusses when she's getting tired, and I always assumed she was fussy BECAUSE she was tired. Solter says the fussing is b/c the baby needs to cry, and the tiredness is making it harder for her to suppress it. So...yesterday I tried letting her cry. She was fed, changed, comfortable, etc. and starting to show tired signs. Instead of nursing her down like I would normally do, I just held her and spoke reassuringly to her. Well, she quickly began crying VERY hard and squirming in my arms, and after a few minutes she was hysterical and I couldn't take it - every fiber of my being was screaming to nurse her. So I did, and the crying stopped and she fell into a deep sleep immediately.

So I'm conflicted. Should I have fought my instincts and waited out the crying? Were my instincts correct in that case and it wasn't a good time for her to have a cry? I know that's a judgement call - I think I was right to go ahead and soothe her. But maybe another time I should try to let her cry and see what happens. We did have a very difficult, traumatic birth, and that could be something that hasn't healed within her yet - God knows I'm not over it.

Anyway, I'd love to have a discussion about this from an AP perspective. What do you guys think?
 
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#2 ·
Well, I haven't read the book.

But I believe that if a baby NEEDS to cry, there is NOTHING we can do to stop it. All we can really do is to not make the need bigger.

So if my guy is in a needing to cry mode, and I notice that I'm annoying him by doing something (trying to nurse him, rocking him, singing to him, etc), I'll stop that behaviour until something in him changes (slowing down the tears, asking to nurse, etc).

But it's just about going with what they are telling us, you know? It's not about deciding "well this must be a needed cry so I'll just stop trying to figure out if it's something easily solved", it's trying what you know to try, and if it's making things worse, just make it a nice quiet less annoying environment.

"every fiber of my being was screaming to nurse her. So I did, and the crying stopped and she fell into a deep sleep immediately." She'd had her cry, now she had another need, your mama instinct caught the change in the communication (crying harder), you helped her, she was happy!

Again, with DS, if there's no other fixable/helpable/calmable need, and the only need is just to wail, there's nothing in the universe I can do to stop him....
 
#3 ·
What are Solter's comments on swaddling babies? They could be thrashing their legs and arms about to relieve emotional tension there too.

I'd dearly love to know how she tested this theory of hers because it really sounds like a load of BS developed to assauge guilt in CIOers. "My baby *needs* to cry--to work out his *emotions*. It's *stressful* for him to be held and nursed."

I have another theory for the same phenomena you witnessed. When your baby was set down that let her release her emotions of not knowing where her mama was so she started crying to help you find her and then she went in to hysterical panic-mode crying to let you know that it was a really long time since she felt you and where are you????? Those hysterical cries are designed to increase your adrenaline and shove your heart in your throat.

Anything that tells you "ignore your instincts" is wrong. There is enough pain and frustration in childrearing that there is no need to add in anything that rips your heart apart.
 
#4 ·
I've never read this book & it sounds like crap. No human being NEEDS to cry. Crying indicates a problem. A parents job is to identify & correct said problems as swiftly as possible. Always trust your instincts!
 
#6 ·
Actually Solter is anti-CIO. She feels that letting babies cry alone is harmful to them. She supports cosleeping, breastfeeding, babywearing, etc. and feels that babies need an immediate response to their cries. If they do just "need to cry" she believes it should happen in the arms of a loving parent who's attending to them the whole time. She cites research that shows that human tears contain stress hormones, and that crying is a way that humans release emotions. When you read the book it actually makes a lot of sense - I'm not really doing it justice. I'm just feeling ambivalent about how to tell when your baby just needs to release some negative emotions as opposed to crying because they have an immediate need.
 
#7 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by rmzbm
I've never read this book & it sounds like crap. No human being NEEDS to cry. Crying indicates a problem.
I don't know. There are times I feel that I need to cry to let out anger, frustration, etc. I sometimes just want a good cry alone with no one shushing me or comforting me and I feel much better afterward, so I do think it's possible. I would NEVER CIO a baby as sleep training or outright ignore a baby's cries, but if you are holding your baby and responding appropriately, maybe it could be ok . I think it really depends on the baby, but everyone should be allowed to "vent" if they need to
:

I've never read that book either, though
 
#8 ·
I have definite needs to cry, too. It's rotten when I'm alone. When I need to cry and CAN cry (I haven't really been ABLE to cry in far too long, and I feel like I'm carrying sorrow around and it's really bothering me), all I want is someone around to sit with me, not annoying me, not bugging me, not upsetting me more...just to be with me.

And there are definitely times that DS really seems to need to cry, and anything we do to soothe or help him just pisses him right off. So we'll go quiet, just hold him, be there for him...and, just like when I want to and can cry, it soon works it's way out and he's peaceful again.

sapphire-chan, you wrote "your baby was set down that let her release her emotions"....she didn't set the baby down. The OP says "I just held her and spoke reassuringly to her".

In re-reading, though, I notice I didn't read the first part of that sentence I just quoted, where she would normally nurse the baby down. And to me, that's not what I'm talking about, personally. If baby *would* nurse and not cry, that's not needing to cry, to me. For me, it's rather when every other avenue has been tried, but baby is still crying, then perhaps it's the need to cry, and we just gotta get out of baby's "way" and let them do what they need to do. But if they WOULD calm if another need were met, then that need should be met.

On the other hand, sometimes at bedtime, DS acts like he'd be happy to just nurse and squirm, nurse and fight, nurse and kick, nurse and get up, for the entire night. Since DH has to work early and when I'm exhausted I hallucinate, at least a couple hours of sleep is needed.
: And there have definitely been times when DH will pick up DS and go walk down the dark hall with him...DS will absolutely protest this, but the truth of the matter is that he's exhausted, he's in papa's loving arms being sung Korean lullabies, and he will very soon be fast asleep. Other times that doesn't work, and he'll come back for one more bit of milk and will pass out then.
What I'm saying is that there are definitely times with us that on the surface it seems he wants/needs more milk, but his other actions are saying otherwise, and quite often if we help him in his need to SLEEP rather than his need to squirm and kick me while getting bits of milk, then most of those times it works out well for everyone.

Sigh.

See, that's the problem with books. They notice something and write it all out like it's black and white, when things like this are always going to have individual stories and it's never going to work 100% of the time...
:
 
#9 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by ACsMom
She cites research that shows that human tears contain stress hormones, and that crying is a way that humans release emotions.
Yes and stress = problem.
 
#10 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by rmzbm
I've never read this book & it sounds like crap. No human being NEEDS to cry. Crying indicates a problem. A parents job is to identify & correct said problems as swiftly as possible. Always trust your instincts!

It's really not crap, I promise! At least I don't think so, at this point.
This book was recommended to me by people on this site, and a lot of people seem to like its ideas. I was hoping for feedback from people who have read it, because I can't explain Solter's ideas as well as she does, and there really is a lot more to it than I can describe in a post. I DO think that human beings need to cry at times, and that crying is an adaptive behavior that serves a function. If it didn't, it probably would have evolved out of our behavioral repertoire a long time ago. But I definitely agree that we should trust our instincts.

Quote:
What are Solter's comments on swaddling babies? They could be thrashing their legs and arms about to relieve emotional tension there too.
Solter claims that swaddling (too much) has been shown to be harmful. I guess Sears has pointed this out too - too much swaddling can inhibit proper hip joint development. I think Solter's point is that anything you do that soothes the baby can have a negative function if used excessively - it can end up keeping the baby from a needed release of emotions. Solter points out that we live in a culture where being emotionally demonstrative is usually frowned upon, so we learn at a very early age to suppress our emotional expression. We help babies learn to do this by providing soothers - these stop the crying, which reinforces the parent to use that method the next time the baby cries. Solter believes there are times when we shouldn't try so hard to stop the crying. She ackowledges that it's hard to tell sometimes when a baby "needs" to cry, and says mothers should trust their instincts on that.

Anyway....other thoughts?
 
#11 ·
I have not read Solter - so can't comment on what has been written by her
but ........I would basically say that it depends on the babe and it depends on the circumstances
CIO is terrible as far as I am concerned - most babes need to be nursed for comfort, nursed to sleep and nursed just a lot of the time
however, there are the odd occassions when my newborn (babe no2) will go to sleep after being full from nursing then wake up again a short while later - sometimes if she is in the right mood - she can cry hard for maybe 1 or 2 mins (no more) and then fall right off to sleep again on her own - if I picked her up to nurse before this for sure she would also go back to sleep nursing

also - my first dd would never have done this because she was an entirely different temperament so I always picked her up if she fussed or cried ........

but the situation you describe sounds very different because your babe cried for longer and you also felt a strong need to nurse her - so do not deny your own instincts in favour of someone else's written words ............
 
#12 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by rmzbm
I've never read this book & it sounds like crap. No human being NEEDS to cry. Crying indicates a problem. A parents job is to identify & correct said problems as swiftly as possible. Always trust your instincts!

I need to cry on occasion. Fact is, life is going to present problems and emotional challenges, and crying is a good way for me to release those tensions and get myself to a point where I can deal with the problems more rationally. I'm an adult though, and it stands to reason that a baby (or even a small child) won't really have the other skills required to deal with whatever problem is besetting them after the emotional release of crying -- so letting such a child cry indefinitely doesn't really help eliminate the problem itself. But I wouldn't so quickly dismiss the need for emotional release in our little ones.
 
#13 ·
i didn't read this book.

i can see both sides of this.

being an ap oriented parent means, first and foremost that our first priority is to promote connection and bonding. sometimes that means different things to different people.

i am firmly and utterly against cio in any way, shape or form.

that said, after our terribly traumatic birth, there were times when dd cried and i knew in my mother's heart that she was crying to dissipate emotional tension. i held her and acknowledged her and told her how much i loved her, and how sorry i was that our birth didn't go the way that we planned (homebirth transport
), and that it was ok if she was scared or mad and that mommy and baby are together now and how proud and grateful i was of her being so strong during the scary birth, and that we got through it together and that i would always be there for her and hold her and love her and that she is so precious to me.

i'm crying, remembering this and writing this.

we worked through it together. and after a while, she didn't need to cry like that anymore.

i suppose if you're into using labels, i let her cio. and before i had my own baby, i would have not believed that a baby would possibly have an emotional need to release in this way. but i know in my heart of hearts that this was what dd needed at the time, and as an ap mama who responds to her baby's needs, i respected that and held her tenderly with tears in my own eyes. it reminded me that it was OUR birth experience, and she participated in it and was affected by it, too. and we healed together.


from what you've described, you sound like a very in-tune, intuitive, and bonded parent. you will know, mama. you will know.
 
#14 ·
we also worked with a wonderful, caring, intuitive craniosacral therapist who specializes in birth trauma. both dd and i have benefitted so much (physically, emotionally and spiritually) from seeing her, i can't recommend it enough. i don't want to derail this thread so please feel free to pm me if you are interested in learning more about it.
 
#15 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by annarosa
CIO is terrible as far as I am concerned ............
Me, too! Guys, please...I feel like everyone's misunderstanding me, here. I would NEVER let my child CIO and this book is not advocating that. As I said, Solter is very anti-CIO. Crying, if it needs to happen, should be done IN-ARMS, never alone.

Again, I would really like to hear from people who HAVE read this.
 
#16 ·
ACs mom...i haven't read the book but i know what you're talking about.


btw, i think there was a thread about crying in arms a while back but without the search function, i can't find it for you right now. but once we can search again, i'll look it up.

what you are talking about is, from my own experience of it, NOT CIO.

again,
.
 
#17 ·
I'm pretty sure an aritcle from this author, or at least on this subject, was published in Mothering a year or two ago. It's not about manipulating your baby into falling asleep alone, or not needing you. It's about not trying to supress your baby's emotions. There's no "at this time everyday, you should hold your baby and let them cry." It's about babies whose needs have been met (they're dry, good temperature, soothing environment, wellfed and refusing the breast) who don't want to be calmed. Sometimes all the shushing and patting and bouncing, etc, annoys more than it helps. Most baby experts would say "if your baby won't be comforted, out them in the crib, walk out, and shut the door." This author is saying "if your baby won't be comforted, maybe s/he doesn't want to be comforted, but wants to cry in a safe, loving, protective parent's arms. Stop all the shushing and bouncing and try to just be with your baby."
 
#19 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by eclipse
I'm pretty sure an aritcle from this author, or at least on this subject, was published in Mothering a year or two ago. It's not about manipulating your baby into falling asleep alone, or not needing you. It's about not trying to supress your baby's emotions. There's no "at this time everyday, you should hold your baby and let them cry." It's about babies whose needs have been met (they're dry, good temperature, soothing environment, wellfed and refusing the breast) who don't want to be calmed. Sometimes all the shushing and patting and bouncing, etc, annoys more than it helps. Most baby experts would say "if your baby won't be comforted, out them in the crib, walk out, and shut the door." This author is saying "if your baby won't be comforted, maybe s/he doesn't want to be comforted, but wants to cry in a safe, loving, protective parent's arms. Stop all the shushing and bouncing and try to just be with your baby."
That makes sense. And validating your baby's feelings is AP, so I can see how this might fit into that.
 
#20 ·
I just read this book. It's VERY AP and against CIO.

I found it fascinating, practical and helpful. Also, it offers a shift of perspective that encouraged me to connect with my baby in a NEW way, i.e. by ACCEPTING her crying and not trying to suppress it every time.

If all her needs are met, instead of jiggling, nursing, pacifying, etc to suppress her crying, simply hold her, love her and accept her tears as a healing and natural human process.

It was a revelation to me that often i NEED to supress her crying (when all her needs are met) in order to assuage my own discomfort. In our society we're not comfortable with the more intense "ugly" emotions, however healing and neccessary they are to express.

I recommend the book to everyone on this thread, especially before adding your opinion on it.
 
#22 ·
Imagine that something traumatic has happened to you ... a loved one died, you lost your job, your dog was hit by a car, etc. This is not a hurt that can be fixed by eating, sleeping, burping or farting. After I miscarried two years ago, I spent a LOT of time crying ... crying over the loss of the future I had imagined for me and my child.

Now imagine that every time you started to cry over this trauma, your dh did everything in his power to stop you from crying. Not in a malicious way, but just not being in tune to your needs at that moment. He would tell jokes, suggest watching a movie, do Kramer-esque pratfalls, etc. How would that make you feel? After I miscarried, my dh spent a lot of time telling me everything would be okay, that next time it wouldn't happen, etc., and I finally yelled at him that he was NOT HELPING! Telling me it was okay was just invalidating the way I felt. He might as well have been saying, "Look, there's nothing to cry about here." That's not what he meant, but the fact that I was crying made HIM uncomfortable. He didn't want to see me unhappy and wanted to make it all better. But he couldn't, and seeing me cry made him feel helpless. But no one could make that hurt all better, and that didn't mean he was a failure. I just needed time to grieve and rage and be unhappy. I needed him to be there to listen to me, put his arms around me, stroke my hair and tell me he was hurting, too. I needed that kind of comfort from him, but the comfort that was geared towards stopping the tears ended up being no comfort at all. Thankfully, I was able to communicate that, and he was able to hear it, and he changed how he comforted me, and by doing that, he WAS able to help me.

Imagine for a moment, however, that your dh was successful in stopping the crying with his antics. Would your grief over losing your mother disappear? Would your anger over losing your job disappear? Would your grief over losing your baby disappear? No. Those emotions don't go away. They just get buried, along with the message that you were "wrong" to have them in the first place. They burrow into your body and set the stage for disease (emotional and physical) later in life because you weren't able to release them in a healthy way.

I've given an "adult" example, but babies are just as capable of having complex emotional lives. They may not "remember" things the way we do, but they are certainly emotional beings, and can be traumatized just like adults (or else letting them cry themselves to sleep in their crib would be no big deal, right?).

The birth of my dd was traumatic for both of us. It was over 72 hours from the first contraction to the last. She was posterior and acynclitic. As if squeezing through the birth canal wasn't hard enough, she was being relentlessly driven downwards by contractions while her head was cocked sideways. After spending 9 months in a warm, comfortable, soothing environment that seamlessly met all of her needs, I imagine this was a terrifying and painful experience. So much so, that there was meconium staining of the amniotic fluid, the severity of which was not detected until right before she was born (an all natural birth, by the way).

Due to the late understanding of the situation, it took 15-20 minutes for a neo-natal doc to arrive. In the meantime, the OB undertook the deep suctioning (putting tubes down her nose and throat to remove the meconium so it wouldn't be aspirated), which was then repeated when the neonatal doc arrived. After 4 days of no sleep, I was dazed and confused, and did not realize exactly what happened until much later. Imagine being my dd ... after a long, difficult, painful birth, you are thrust into a strange new world, and instead of being held lovingly in your mother's arms, you're laid out on a table and restrained so tubes can be shoved in your nose and mouth over and over -- first by someone who does not do this for a living, so he was probably understandably clumsy. And then yet again by someone else (this happened at an in-hospital Alternative Birthing Center that is dedicated to natural birth and breastfeeding, and even midwifes at a homebirth do this type of suctioning for meconium aspiration). An hour later, you are finally handed to your mother, but it's too late, the damage has been done.

When mama's milk comes in 3 days later, you are suddenly overwhelmed by the sensation of something rushing into your mouth, and it triggers a memory, reaction, fear. Something bad happened and it also involved something in your mouth. You pull off the breast and scream. But you're hungry, so you try again. Pull off and scream. Hungry, try again. Do this every few hours, and far, far into the night.

This was our life for the first few months after dd's birth. It took me a long time to fully comprehend what was going on, although my instinct told me from the beginning that she was traumatized by the suctioning. I have not read Solter's book, but some kind soul on these boards directed me to her article in Mothering (a magazine that hardly endorses CIO) on Crying for Comfort (the same link that eclipse gave). That article changed my life.

I think the big debate over crying in arms occurs because people mistakenly believe that comfort is being withheld from the baby. When CIA is done correctly, this is not true. Comfort and soothing are offered, but NOT with the intent of stopping the crying. It is a subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless. There was a big discussion about the idea of CIA a while back with many in-depth and interesting comments (maybe 6-8 months ago?). Unfortunately, it was moved from LWAB to another forum because some of the participants were angered with the idea of letting young babies cry. With the search function disabled and not remembering the forum it was moved to, I don't have much hope of finding it at the moment. If you want to look when search is up and running again, I believe it was called something like the overlooked healing benefits of crying.

I did crying in arms with dd several times, but like kidspiration, we were lucky enough to find an incredible CS therapist who really helped my dd process her birth trauma. I've blogged about this experience in detail, which you can read here. Also, feel free to PM me if you want more details. I cannot recommend CST enough, however. A good therapist can detect when an emotional release is occurring. For me, the hardest part about doing crying in arms was worrying that I was doing the wrong thing ... maybe she was gassy, and I just couldn't tell, yk? By doing it through CST, the therapist can tell what's going on, and there's no questioning about whether the crying is an emotional release or a signal of physical distress.

If you're interested, you can find a practitioner in your area through this site. I think it's imperative that the therapist have training in somatoemotional release (an advanced form of CST). When you search for a practitioner, you can see what classes they've taken, so you can tell if they've had this. Find someone who looks well trained, then call and ask if they work with babies. FYI, we see a massage therapist who charges $30/session. It has truly been amazing, and I am so incredibly grateful.

To the OP, the fact that you mentioned a difficult, traumatic birth caught my eye immediately. The fact that this book is resonating with you means it's applicable to your situation. The tough part is that it appears your dd is willing to nurse for comfort. In my case, my dd would not nurse when she was upset, so I never had to worry if I was using it to stifle her emotional release (FWIW, I always made it available, but she wouldn't nurse until she was done crying ... typically after 10 to 20 minutes). So things are a bit trickier for you, and in the end, you will simply have to listen to your instincts about the right thing to do. FWIW, I tend to lean towards offering whatever type of comfort your dd is willing to accept, all the while holding on to the intention of being there for her, but NOT trying to shut her up. I can think of no greater gift one can give their child, than a safe space to come with ALL of their emotions -- be it joy or rage, happiness or grief. You're doing a great job
!
 
#23 ·
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I'm almost finished with the book and it's given me food for thought. Mama2lucy, I agree that it presents a new way to connect with your baby emotionally and honor their emotional needs.

Kidspiration - good idea about the craniosacral. I may seek that out, I've heard so many good things about it. Thanks, also, for telling your story about helping your daughter heal from the birth trauma. What a loving thing you did for her (and yourself).
 
#24 ·
AC's Mom-thank you, and i wish peace to you and your precious little one. she is so lucky to have such an intuitive mama like you.

shanana-tears in my eyes from your beautiful, courageous post. so glad that you have also found a wonderful cst to help you and your dd. isn't it amazing? and isn't mama's intuition powerful?
 
#25 ·
Great post, Shanana.
I just started reading the book a couple of weeks ago but have since put it down for another. I am going to pick it back up tomorrow. You really made me think about my own DS's issues. I feel that I did try to stifle his emotional releases when he was very young. We had a very short, easy and beautiful birthing experience. However, during the last months of my pregnancy and the first several weeks of his life, I was going through a very stressful, emotional, long-distance divorce. This really took it's toll on DS and I didn't recognize that at the time.
Thank you SO MUCH for the links and the suggestion for craniosacral therapy, even though it wasn't even directed towards me, personally!

Sorry to hijack the thread!
 
#26 ·
my 18mo old daughter was waking up all time time at night and nusing for a minute during the day and whiny and fussy. after reading the aware baby i applied her theory and got great results. now my girl goes to sleep through the night. she doesnt whine to me. she's happy loving healthy. after a good cry (usually once a week) she cuddles up next to me and puts her hands on myy face, smiles and goes to sleep. it has deepend our relationship and helped me to release some of my own tears. i think this book is great. i just wanted to say it worked for me and i tell everyone i know about it.
i hope this helps...
 
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