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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I don't vax my son and based on everything I've read until recently, I had no intention of vaxing him for CP (varicella). I still think I will probably wait until he gets to puberty and then *maybe* get him vaxed then if he hasn't had the wild virus.

However, I recently got into a debate with some moms on another list. Someone referred me to an article which suggests that those who get the vax are less likely to get shingles (zoster) than those who get wild cp. (Which is what the CDC claims but does not give evidence to support). The article says, "Studies in children with leukaemia suggest that the rate of zoster is lower in those who have been vaccinated (2%) as compared with matched children with leukaemia who had experienced natural varicella (15%).37,49 In 268 healthy adults who had received two doses of vaccine, three months apart, the calculated incidence of herpes zoster was 12.8 cases/100 000 person years, compared with an expected rate of 77 cases/100 000 person years.50 There are several hypotheses as to why herpes zoster is less common after vaccination than natural infection. It may be simply because the vaccine virus has been attenuated. Alternatively, because vaccination seldom causes skin lesions, the virus is less likely to infect the sensory nerves and associated ganglia. Support for the importance of a skin rash comes from studies of vaccinated children with leukaemia in whom the risk of developing zoster was nearly six times higher if the vaccinee had a history of VZV related rash than if no rash had occurred.37 The apparent importance of a skin rash for the development of herpes zoster has led to the prediction that the incidence of herpes zoster will be lower in healthy vaccinees than those who have had natural infection. This is because a vaccine associated rash and breakthrough varicella are unusual in healthy vaccinated adults or children.2,49"

I've read exactly the opposite on this board, but haven't seen any citations. Does anyone have any? I'd love to know the truth of this matter (and also share it with my other list).

And just to clarify -- I know that people can get shingles after either wild virus or the vax. My question is specifically about the rates and severity of shingles.

Thanks!
 

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completely anectdotal but I had the chicken pox when I was 3 and then had shingles when I was 12ish. I remember getting it close to the time that I had my last measles shot. It really wasn't that bad, itched for a few days but went away with meds. It was about as annoying as a mosquito bite.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for those links, LongIsland! I had found one of them in my searching but two were new to me and very helpful. So basically: we can't say yet whether shingles is more common among the unvaxed vs. vaxed.

Nevertheless, the vaers report is helpful in the decision NOT to vax for cp.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chiedza
So basically: we can't say yet whether shingles is more common among the unvaxed vs. unvaxed.
Not only is shingles not nationally notifiable, but you can't even get a decent idea on the incidence of vaccine-induced shingles using VAERS due to the significant underreporting.

You would think by now, shingles would have become a nationally notifiable disease given the fact they know the vaccine induces shingles.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by romans_mum
i have heard that its the opposite, if you dont get cp but the vax, you will get shingles.
You "will" get them?

Really, the truth has to be that if you have had chicken pox, there is some live virus in you body (the nerves provide a safe haven from immune defenses) and if you have had the vaccine you have the live virus in your body, therefore you could get shingles in either case. The question is exactly which factors make it more likely in which case.

I think that vaccinations are balance-upsetting rather than balance-creating, so I believe that the total consequences to whole health from the vaccine will cause more problema than natural exposures of all kinds.

My son has had shingles and all four of my children have had natural chicken pox. One child and my husband have had chicken pox twice.

Illness is an important process for our bodies and souls. Sometimes an illness functions to disrupt a pattern in our lives, to trigger needed readjustments. Stress is known to be a major factor in the occurence or recurrence of shingles. Shingles can become a chronic condition. But poor health habits, poor rhythms, and unhealthy emotional states always chronically undermine our health. Illness is an unpleasant experience even fopr healthy folks, but I do feel that it is part of the process of being alive and that we don't understand the complexity of what we are tampering with well enough to do it. We will always bring about unpredictable consequences in this kind of experimental situation.

The larger pattern of physical and spiritual health is threatened by the disruption by vaccines--in large part because our health care system acts as if most of the collateral impact does not exist at all. Supposedly, most of the ingredients are "inert" extras and the only one that counts is the viral one. Supposedly it is okay to put these directly into our blood. It is basically considered a good approximate replacement for getting a disease without getting a disease. That's quite a trick we are pulling on our system, and we act like it is just this mechanical manipulation. But organic systems are not that simple. They are fine-tuned to compensate for a complex set of impacts by real diseases-- not for the network of effects created by chemical concoctions.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by QuestionGal
completely anectdotal but I had the chicken pox when I was 3 and then had shingles when I was 12ish. I remember getting it close to the time that I had my last measles shot. It really wasn't that bad, itched for a few days but went away with meds. It was about as annoying as a mosquito bite.
I thought shingles do not itch --as a basic characteristic. That it is intense pain. My young son had gigantic blisters down the side of his face, and he never scratched them or disturbed them. He would press upon them gently, like he was amazed by them. And he was feverish and in pain that was obviously demanding most of his dazed attention just to tolerate it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by deeporgarten
I think that vaccinations are balance-upsetting rather than balance-creating, so I believe that the total consequences to whole health from the vaccine will cause more problema than natural exposures of all kinds.

My son has had shingles and all four of my children have had natural chicken pox. One child and my husband have had chicken pox twice.

Illness is an important process for our bodies and souls. Sometimes an illness functions to disrupt a pattern in our lives, to trigger needed readjustments. Stress is known to be a major factor in the occurence or recurrence of shingles. Shingles can become a chronic condition. But poor health habits, poor rhythms, and unhealthy emotional states always chronically undermine our health. Illness is an unpleasant experience even fopr healthy folks, but I do feel that it is part of the process of being alive and that we don't understand the complexity of what we are tampering with well enough to do it. We will always bring about unpredictable consequences in this kind of experimental situation.

The larger pattern of physical and spiritual health is threatened by the disruption by vaccines--in large part because our health care system acts as if most of the collateral impact does not exist at all. Supposedly, most of the ingredients are "inert" extras and the only one that counts is the viral one. Supposedly it is okay to put these directly into our blood. It is basically considered a good approximate replacement for getting a disease without getting a disease. That's quite a trick we are pulling on our system, and we act like it is just this mechanical manipulation. But organic systems are not that simple. They are fine-tuned to compensate for a complex set of impacts by real diseases-- not for the network of effects created by chemical concoctions.
Thanks for this, Deeporgarten. I agree with you but could not have put it quite so well. On the other list I referred to I was getting blindsided by people citing medical journals (as if they're unbiased), accusing me of lacking rationality, etc. Your words are a welcome respite.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by LongIsland
This is a statement from the CDC (1995):
http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/795_chickpox.html

At FDA's request, Merck will follow several thousand vaccinated children for 15 years to determine the long-term effects of the vaccine and possible need for a booster immunization.
Now they are doing the booster. Have they released any of the results on long-term effects?
 
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