Child abuse & Genital Mutilation
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children are not seperate species; if i was in a position of need and helplessness, how would i want someone to treat me? do i want to sit for an hour in my feces? do i want to be ignored if i need help? do i want my genitals sliced up?
it's just empathy. if you don't know if something is abuse, imagine someone holding the power doing the same thing to you. does it feel like abuse? then it's abuse. it's not that complicated.
it's just empathy. if you don't know if something is abuse, imagine someone holding the power doing the same thing to you. does it feel like abuse? then it's abuse. it's not that complicated.
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I certainly don't doubt that mgm is abuse but I am not mainstream America. That crowd would say that the end justifies the means. How would they be able to consider if there was lasting damage when none of them follow-up on their son's penises? Can you imagine anyone of them saying to their adult son's: "so son, how's that 'improved penis' working out for you?"
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I wish it wasn't...but it is for many many people.
| incorrigible: *I* would call circ lasting damage, but everyone that deals with it has to see it as damage instead of an improvement for it to be abuse...and this nation has no idea what abuse or damage are anymore. |
I certainly don't doubt that mgm is abuse but I am not mainstream America. That crowd would say that the end justifies the means. How would they be able to consider if there was lasting damage when none of them follow-up on their son's penises? Can you imagine anyone of them saying to their adult son's: "so son, how's that 'improved penis' working out for you?"
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| Tiger Tail: it's just empathy. if you don't know if something is abuse, imagine someone holding the power doing the same thing to you. does it feel like abuse? then it's abuse. it's not that complicated. |
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No it isn't! Thanks god I was raped by two armed men, instead of being circ'd. When I imagine circ being done to me the way it's done to poor babies, my rape sounds like a joke to me...
Originally Posted by kldliam  I wish it wasn't...but it is for many many people. |
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Wonderfully said.
At some point I think I'd like to turn this into a postable quote/image if it's okay with you.
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Jen
Originally Posted by TigerTail children are not seperate species; if i was in a position of need and helplessness, how would i want someone to treat me? do i want to sit for an hour in my feces? do i want to be ignored if i need help? do i want my genitals sliced up? it's just empathy. if you don't know if something is abuse, imagine someone holding the power doing the same thing to you. does it feel like abuse? then it's abuse. it's not that complicated. |
At some point I think I'd like to turn this into a postable quote/image if it's okay with you.
Jen
my son is circ'ed unfortunately and as anti-circ as I am, I don't consider him as abused or sexually abused as some anti-circs think. I think there's sexual abuse, physical and emotional abuse. I'm extremely anti-circ but I don't consider circ'ing as abuse.... I do consider it mutilation though but I can't think of it as abuse.
it's a good discussion topic, kath; i didn't mean to sound dismissive or that i had the answers. i know it's a paradigm shift for people to realize it- i'm always tryin' to work that paradigm shift
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. people loathe the discomfort of change, and nothing is worse than rethinking something you assumed all your life (like, 'my parents are saints! and they did it to me, so...')
clean it up so i don't look punctuation-illiterate, jen, and it's yours.
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clean it up so i don't look punctuation-illiterate, jen, and it's yours.
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It is very difficult for me to think of MIL "abusing" DH. She had him circ'd out of love b/c she honestly thought it was the best thing for him. Fortunately, we know better now.
Of course the thought of me having my DS circ'd sounds abusive to me b/c I know how awful it it.
So much of it in my mind is about intent, but legally, if someone abuses another, its abuse no matter what their justification. I certainly can't argue that beating a child is abuse, even if the parent thinks they are doing the right thing and doing it out of love. (I know how revolting that thought is, but some parents honestly think corporal punishment is an act of love.) Why should it be different with circ?
Well...I didn't help any, did I?
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Of course the thought of me having my DS circ'd sounds abusive to me b/c I know how awful it it.
So much of it in my mind is about intent, but legally, if someone abuses another, its abuse no matter what their justification. I certainly can't argue that beating a child is abuse, even if the parent thinks they are doing the right thing and doing it out of love. (I know how revolting that thought is, but some parents honestly think corporal punishment is an act of love.) Why should it be different with circ?
Well...I didn't help any, did I?
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You did help! I think it's perfectly said!
Originally Posted by christifav So much of it in my mind is about intent, but legally, if someone abuses another, its abuse no matter what their justification. I certainly can't argue that beating a child is abuse, even if the parent thinks they are doing the right thing and doing it out of love. (I know how revolting that thought is, but some parents honestly think corporal punishment is an act of love.) Why should it be different with circ? Well...I didn't help any, did I?
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Many pedophiles would say they are "loving" children as well, so it's not abuse.......
Maybe the parents are not the abusers in a circ situation since they may genuinely believe they are doing what's best, but the DOCTORS who have stacks of information and have taken an oath to first do no harm are certainly guilty of abuse. On top of everything else, circ often involves stimulating a boy's first erection in order to have tissue large enough to work with. His FIRST sexual encounter is at the hands of someone who has stripped him naked, tied him down and is about to slice him up. Yes, that is abuse in my book.
Maybe the parents are not the abusers in a circ situation since they may genuinely believe they are doing what's best, but the DOCTORS who have stacks of information and have taken an oath to first do no harm are certainly guilty of abuse. On top of everything else, circ often involves stimulating a boy's first erection in order to have tissue large enough to work with. His FIRST sexual encounter is at the hands of someone who has stripped him naked, tied him down and is about to slice him up. Yes, that is abuse in my book.
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I can understand why.
Do you think mgm is an 'abuse of power' over a helpless, defenseless child?
| GOODMOMMA: my son is circ'ed unfortunately and as anti-circ as I am, I don't consider him as abused or sexually abused as some anti-circs think. I think there's sexual abuse, physical and emotional abuse. I'm extremely anti-circ but I don't consider circ'ing as abuse.... I do consider it mutilation though but I can't think of it as abuse. |
Do you think mgm is an 'abuse of power' over a helpless, defenseless child?
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Something is not right with what you were told. Parents can be charged with abuse even if the injuries heal. Bruises, sprains and tissue damage do constitute abuse in EVERY state in America. Molestation also constitutes ause in EVERY state in America, regardless of whether or not there is permanent physical damage to the genitalia as a result of it. Something else was going on for the police to tell you they could not charge your husband. I'm actually shocked that anyone told you your husband couldn't be charged. It's completely false.
Originally Posted by incorrigible XH was proved outright to have molested dd, but it wasn't abuse because he didn't do any damage. The tissue damage, sprains, and bruising on ds weren't "lasting" damage because they did eventually heal. He was proven hands down to have caused these things, even admitted to them, but dcfs had their hands tied by legal definitions and the police couldn't even get it into court. |
Something is not right with what you were told. Parents can be charged with abuse even if the injuries heal. Bruises, sprains and tissue damage do constitute abuse in EVERY state in America. Molestation also constitutes ause in EVERY state in America, regardless of whether or not there is permanent physical damage to the genitalia as a result of it. Something else was going on for the police to tell you they could not charge your husband. I'm actually shocked that anyone told you your husband couldn't be charged. It's completely false.
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Yes! I think parents think they own their children and can do what they want. I've heard that excuse so many times... "it's my child"
Originally Posted by kldliam I can understand why. Do you think mgm is an 'abuse of power' over a helpless, defenseless child? |
Intention seems to be an important issue here: certainly your average American parent who orders a circumcision feels that the decision was made in the best interest of their child (even those, and they do, alas, exist who say "The pain will toughen them up" although possibly excempting those who say "It's nothing compared to what I went through!") but does this make the act any less abusive?
Despite it being a cultural norm I would say no as regardless of their intention if any other healthy body part was removed from a healthy infant I would term it as abuse regardless of what the person who performed the operation and gave the order for it to occur intended to acheive.
Therefore it would be irrational to declare such a blatantly functional organ as foreskin an exception and I have never been provided with reasoning that will make me see things otherwise.
However it is probably for the best to leave such wording out of debates, as it is somewhat inflammatory and the responsive fury tends to side-track all earnest discussion and lose the point.
Despite it being a cultural norm I would say no as regardless of their intention if any other healthy body part was removed from a healthy infant I would term it as abuse regardless of what the person who performed the operation and gave the order for it to occur intended to acheive.
Therefore it would be irrational to declare such a blatantly functional organ as foreskin an exception and I have never been provided with reasoning that will make me see things otherwise.
However it is probably for the best to leave such wording out of debates, as it is somewhat inflammatory and the responsive fury tends to side-track all earnest discussion and lose the point.
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I respectfully disagree James. Creating stigma is an important part of ending human right's atrocities.
Every little bit helps.
| Revamp: However it is probably for the best to leave such wording out of debates, as it is somewhat inflammatory and the responsive fury tends to side-track all earnest discussion and lose the point. |
Every little bit helps.
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But I do not feel that it neccessarily creates any, it just makes us seem reactionary {which, in our own way, I suppose we are} and makes us easier to dismiss. If more people obeyed the Socratic method of debating it would be fine but as things stand it just makes us look like another bunch of weirdos.
Originally Posted by kldliam I respectfully disagree James. Creating stigma is an important part of ending human right's atrocities. Every little bit helps. |
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The shock value of it really can't be determined. By the way, we are being dismissed in countless ways. There is no perfect formula for bringing about major social change. We all contribute in different ways and all of the contributions have value.
The shock value of it really can't be determined. By the way, we are being dismissed in countless ways. There is no perfect formula for bringing about major social change. We all contribute in different ways and all of the contributions have value.
Hey kd, please check that link I provided to Andrew Sullivan's site. In the "trackback" section of that post you will find that the only response is from someone who just honed in on the word "Abuse" and used that as a way of avoiding his actual argument, even the scientific study!
It was easy to depict him as an irrational extremist due to the disparity between the standard view in American culture and the one that those such as Andrew, who shared my British upbringing {Britain being a country where intact is and was the norm} will come to when we consider this topic.
That is no anomoly, it happens all the time when such wording is used and thus it is counter-productive.
It was easy to depict him as an irrational extremist due to the disparity between the standard view in American culture and the one that those such as Andrew, who shared my British upbringing {Britain being a country where intact is and was the norm} will come to when we consider this topic.
That is no anomoly, it happens all the time when such wording is used and thus it is counter-productive.
In my mind, I consider my sons to have been sexually traumatized. I had my four-year-old in for his annual exam- the pedi had him lie on his back and was trying to examine his genitals, and he was covering up with his hands and squeezing together his legs. She acted surprised that he wouldn't just lie still for her. I turned to her and said, "he was circumcised, I'm sure in some way he remembers being traumatized". She looked at me like I was crazy, and said something dismissive. Thankfully, my son didn't pick up on this part of the conversation- I'm preparing to answer questions down the road, but I don't think I'm ready yet! Is it sexual abuse? I guess it probably could be considered that, but I really don't want to think that I contributed to the sexual abuse of two of my children. Trust me, I can't feel any worse about it than I already do.
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