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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This popped up as a discussion in the I'm Not Vaccinating forum.

Let's not comment on what was said in that thread, but just start a brand new discussion here.
http://www.alternet.org/story/80129...bodies_gone_haywire_in_a_world_out_of_balance

Not a minor problem. A major cause of suffering and death in the US and throughout the world.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10648110

J Autoimmun. 2000 Feb;14(1):1-10.
Vaccination and autoimmunity-'vaccinosis': a dangerous liaison?

Shoenfeld Y1, Aron-Maor A.
Author information


Abstract

The question of a connection between vaccination and autoimmune illness (or phenomena) is surrounded by controversy. A heated debate is going on regarding the causality between vaccines, such as measles and anti-hepatitis B virus (HBV), and multiple sclerosis (MS). Brain antibodies as well as clinical symptoms have been found in patients vaccinated against those diseases. Other autoimmune illnesses have been associated with vaccinations. Tetanus toxoid, influenza vaccines, polio vaccine, and others, have been related to phenomena ranging from autoantibodies production to full-blown illness (such as rheumatoid arthritis (RA)). Conflicting data exists regarding also the connection between autism and vaccination with measles vaccine. So far only one controlled study of an experimental animal model has been published, in which the possible causal relation between vaccines and autoimmune findings has been examined: in healthy puppies immunized with a variety of commonly given vaccines, a variety of autoantibodies have been documented but no frank autoimmune illness was recorded. The findings could also represent a polyclonal activation (adjuvant reaction). The mechanism (or mechanisms) of autoimmune reactions following immunization has not yet been elucidated. One of the possibilities is molecular mimicry; when a structural similarity exists between some viral antigen (or other component of the vaccine) and a self-antigen. This similarity may be the trigger to the autoimmune reaction. Other possible mechanisms are discussed. Even though the data regarding the relation between vaccination and autoimmune disease is conflicting, it seems that some autoimmune phenomena are clearly related to immunization (e.g. Guillain-Barre syndrome). The issue of the risk of vaccination remains a philosophical one, since to date the advantages of this policy have not been refuted, while the risk for autoimmune disease has not been irrevocably proved. We discuss the pros and cons of this issue (although the temporal relationship (i.e. always 2-3 months following immunization) is impressive).
This should be enough to get a lively discussion going.
 

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I have multiple family members with a variety of autoimmune disorders. One is my husband. I see the pain they go through every day. Avoidance techniques don't always work, medications don't always work. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

A friend is in her early thirties with crohns, even the immune suppressant drugs they give were not enough so she took the next step-surgery to have a portion of her diseased colon removed. My brother has patches of hair that fall out and stop growing for months, my sis-in-law gets severly ill from eating gluten, a second mother has trouble getting through her day, her RA pain is so bad and has been since she was young.

IF we really are choosing between VPD and autoimmunity, I think we (as society) are making the wrong choice.
 

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I have multiple family members with a variety of autoimmune disorders. One is my husband. I see the pain they go through every day. Avoidance techniques don't always work, medications don't always work. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

A friend is in her early thirties with crohns, even the immune suppressant drugs they give were not enough so she took the next step-surgery to have a portion of her diseased colon removed. My brother has patches of hair that fall out and stop growing for months, my sis-in-law gets severly ill from eating gluten, a second mother has trouble getting through her day, her RA pain is so bad and has been since she was young.

IF we really are choosing between VPD and autoimmunity, I think we (as society) are making the wrong choice.
I'm sorry.

I'll hold the good thought for them. <3
 

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I have multiple family members with a variety of autoimmune disorders.

a second mother has trouble getting through her day, her RA pain is so bad and has been since she was young.
Few know about the connection between dental infection and RA. I recall reading a published article (in a medical journal) that was about a case of a patient who insisted that the problem was a specific tooth. However he struggled to find a dentist willing to extract the tooth just because the patient had a hunch that that was the problem. Finally he was able to find a dentist willing to extract the offending tooth. Once the tooth was removed, and the source of infection (the tooth) was gone, the RA went away. The article mentioned that he had 'remission' for almost two decades, perhaps not wanting to admit that he was actually cured. I found the article, i.e.:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12175115&dopt=Abstract

These couple of articles should be helpful regarding understanding this connection:
http://www.arthritis-cure.co.uk/my-rheumatoid-arthritis-latest-news-and-experiences/
http://www.icnr.com/cs/cs_23.html
 

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Of course, you aren't choosing between all these auto-immune diseases and chickenpox and other diseases. Even the quote in the OP says there is not any good evidence that vaccines cause these conditions. Further, people seem to be forgetting we also vaccinate for some pretty terrible and contagious diseases like diphtheria and polio among others.

I'd choose arthritis, eczema, etc over diphtheria and polio for myself and my children any day of the week.
 

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I'd choose arthritis, eczema, etc over diphtheria and polio for myself and my children any day of the week.
Okey-dokey, as long as you remember that:
We don't need no vaccination
We don't need no medical control
No toxic stuff in our bloodstream
Vaxxers leave our kids alone
Hey! Vaxxers! Leave our kids alone!
After all, our babies are not just a dollar bill.
After all, our babies are not just a dollar bill.
(Based on 'Another brick in the wall' by Pink Floyd)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Of course, you aren't choosing between all these auto-immune diseases and chickenpox and other diseases. Even the quote in the OP says there is not any good evidence that vaccines cause these conditions. Further, people seem to be forgetting we also vaccinate for some pretty terrible and contagious diseases like diphtheria and polio among others.

I'd choose arthritis, eczema, etc over diphtheria and polio for myself and my children any day of the week.
As a survivor of the great polio epidemics of the 1950s, without ever receiving the vaccine, I'm quite happy I didn't have to deal with either paralysis or auto-immune disease. As I've pointed out many, many, many times, diphtheria is mainly a disease of poverty. The risks are quite low for people with decent living conditions. http://outbreaknewstoday.com/india-kerala-state-sees-resurgence-of-diphtheria-52886/
Risk factors include crowding, poor hygiene, and lack of immunization.
"…shows in interesting and conclusive fashion the definitive effect of school buildings, their construction and sanitation, on the spread of diphtheria. The highest incidence was observed in those schools where sanitation is most deficient and ventilation and lighting the least satisfactory. The brightest and airiest school showed the lowest incidence, and the incidence throughout all the schools placed them in exact order of sanitary virtue. Moreover, the incidence indicated the schools where malnutrition in the children is most conspicuous." (Medical World, 1931, p. 627.)
this excerpt via Hilary Butler

An unbiased analysis of the history of diphtheria would find that the vaccine has played a minor role in the control of this illness, but gets most of the credit.

However, on the evidence of a connection between auto-immune disease and vaccinations, the reality is that we just don't know. The needed research hasn't been done, and given the current atmosphere around critical research and vaccinations, it won't be done. Too bad.
 

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We've gone over this diphtheria thing a hundred times. Of course crowded conditions are going to make it more likely to spread.That is true for almost every infectious disease out there. But it is extremely contagious - three times as contagious as the flu, and more contagious than mumps - and you don't see only kids living in squalor contract those. It is not spread through contaminated food and water like typhoid where sanitation can control it. It is spread through respiratory droplets. Without the vaccine, nearly everyone would contract it at some point. It is spread the same way the flu is and is significantly more contagious - if you can catch the flu you can catch diphtheria.
 

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In the first world, going without vaccines is very, very low risk. Why that is true is moot to the point. Without question, I think AI's are far riskier than going vaccine-free.

Now, if vaccines did not exist, and some twisted deity said:

Please choose. I can protect you against these disease or I can protect you against AI, I would choose protection from AI. Speaking generally, AI's are worse than the diseases we vaccinate for.

There are only two disease where someone could say disease or AI and I would prefer the AI: diphtheria and tetanus.

I would think heavily (and it would depend on the AI) but Polio is a toss up with a slight leaning towards Polio over AI. When all is said and done, the vast majority of people (over 99%) recover from Polio without further issues. The same cannot be said for AI.
 

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Few know about the connection between dental infection and RA. I recall reading a published article (in a medical journal) that was about a case of a patient who insisted that the problem was a specific tooth. However he struggled to find a dentist willing to extract the tooth just because the patient had a hunch that that was the problem. Finally he was able to find a dentist willing to extract the offending tooth. Once the tooth was removed, and the source of infection (the tooth) was gone, the RA went away. The article mentioned that he had 'remission' for almost two decades, perhaps not wanting to admit that he was actually cured. I found the article, i.e.:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12175115&dopt=Abstract

These couple of articles should be helpful regarding understanding this connection:
http://www.arthritis-cure.co.uk/my-rheumatoid-arthritis-latest-news-and-experiences/
http://www.icnr.com/cs/cs_23.html
Wow! Thanks for this post!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
We've gone over this diphtheria thing a hundred times. Of course crowded conditions are going to make it more likely to spread.That is true for almost every infectious disease out there. But it is extremely contagious - three times as contagious as the flu, and more contagious than mumps - and you don't see only kids living in squalor contract those. It is not spread through contaminated food and water like typhoid where sanitation can control it. It is spread through respiratory droplets. Without the vaccine, nearly everyone would contract it at some point. It is spread the same way the flu is and is significantly more contagious - if you can catch the flu you can catch diphtheria.
You can't see the big problem with this argument, can you? Contagious doesn't actually equal everyone getting sick. Polio, in the real world is immensely contagious. And yet, until modern times arrived, people weren't all falling down with acute flaccid paralysis.

So what really happened with diphtheria? It was everywhere. Everyone got exposed. Most people caught it as children, got mildly ill, if they got ill at all, developed lifelong immunity and that was the end of it. People who were malnourished, living in awful conditions and so on were fairly likely to get really ill and even to die.

Yep, here we go, evidence that people who had no actual history of having had diphtheria would present with immunity. http://www.jimmunol.org/content/9/6/571

By means of the Schick reaction, we were able to distinguish, among human beings, those susceptible to diphtheria from the immune. The blood of the individuals having a negative Schick reaction contains normal antitoxin, and these are resistant to the infection. The origin of normal antitoxin has not been heretofore explained. Most investigators regard them as representing an acquired immunity. However, we meet with Schick negative individuals who have not had diphtheria. In these cases, the authors suppose that we are dealing with the effect of unrevealed infections. The following data seem to support this opinion. The countrymen are more often susceptible than town dwellers. The poor are more often immune than the rich. Children are more susceptible than grown-ups, girls more than boys. The authors explain this greater immunity of the poor and boys by their being more exposed to infection.
There is a lot of interesting information buried in the big pile of science on the wonders of vaccination. Who would have thought that it was possible to be exposed to deadly diphtheria and develop immunity without ever showing a sign of illness?

Note also the fact that poor people were more likely to be immune than rich people, more evidence that this disease circulated better in slums...
 

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To the OP - Choose your risk, autoimmue disease or no vaccines?

My body, my risk, my choice.

I am the one who will live with the consequences, not the doctor nor anyone else.

Period.
 

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People that think autoimmunity is manageable and non lethal really need to understand that it can be lethal. Crohn's disease has almost taken my life twice once from sepsis and another from a very severe flare, and I have had internet friends on IBD forums die over the years. They die from sepsis, or they die from cancer they get from all the drugs they need to take to keep their body from flaring. It is a life long threat. Measles lasts a couple weeks and the threat is over. Autoimmunity is for life, and once you get one AI disease, you can get more over the years.

I can not bring myself to vaccinate my children, knowing how autoimmune I am, and that should be considered as a contraindication to vaccinating my children should I see the risk be worse than the benefit. They dont even acknowledge the risk when its in the pamphlets, and that ASIA is a very plausible mechanism. If you want to risk autoimmunity and vaccinate, thats fine, but children who have autoimmunity in their genetics, should not be forced to. This should be reason for exemption.
 

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People that think autoimmunity is manageable and non lethal really need to understand that it can be lethal. Crohn's disease has almost taken my life twice once from sepsis and another from a very severe flare, and I have had internet friends on IBD forums die over the years. They die from sepsis, or they die from cancer they get from all the drugs they need to take to keep their body from flaring. It is a life long threat. Measles lasts a couple weeks and the threat is over. Autoimmunity is for life, and once you get one AI disease, you can get more over the years.
.
My cousin has Crohn's. He wear a ostomy bag and has for 10 years. His teeth are rotten from medication and he has osteoporosis from medication. He is 34.

Wishing you much health,

kathy
 

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My cousin has Crohn's. He wear a ostomy bag and has for 10 years. His teeth are rotten from medication and he has osteoporosis from medication. He is 34.

Wishing you much health,

kathy
Yeah I have had some surgeries, and a biologic gave me drug induced lupus. I am now weaning off my immune suppressant and trying high CBD cannabis and low dose naltrexone out. My GI is going to scope me in a year to see how its working. I have nothing against THC, I just cant tolerate the effect. I get extreme anxiety and dont seem to build tolerance. I hope the CBD and LDN can get me off these terrible medications.
 

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Seriously if someone said, your daughter will either get measles or crohns disease, I would pick measles with out a second thought. My dad paced the halls during my emergency surgery, where they told my parents I had a 50/50 chance of dying. He paced crying "She's going to die" over and over. I cant imagine what thats like. They will always worry every time my disease flares. Heck I worry every time my disease flares. I would never tell another parent what to do regarding vaccinations other than, informed consent is important. It just funny to me that vaccinations are the only drug that is contraindication free for the most part, with the exception of live vaccines and immune suppressed people. Previous reactions are down played, family history is not considered, the child's current health is not considered. No contraindications. What a miracle!
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Seriously if someone said, your daughter will either get measles or crohns disease, I would pick measles with out a second thought. My dad paced the halls during my emergency surgery, where they told my parents I had a 50/50 chance of dying. He paced crying "She's going to die" over and over. I cant imagine what thats like. They will always worry every time my disease flares. Heck I worry every time my disease flares. I would never tell another parent what to do regarding vaccinations other than, informed consent is important. It just funny to me that vaccinations are the only drug that is contraindication free for the most part, with the exception of live vaccines and immune suppressed people. Previous reactions are down played, family history is not considered, the child's current health is not considered. No contraindications. What a miracle!
Yes, and the push to ignore any possible contraindications and to keep giving vaccines even when there are reactions is growing all the time. Crazy.
 

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