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I was wondering about what statistics on rape and circumcision there was. How many circumcised men versus intact rape. Whether there was a difference or not.
Circumicsed men more likely to rape?
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Harsh, but very interesting. I'd like to see that also. If it did show that circed men were more likely to rape it may possibly be attributed to the idea that circumcision is a child's first "sexual" experience and it is violent and painful?
hmm.Like I said. Very harsh subject, but very interesting.
hmm.Like I said. Very harsh subject, but very interesting.
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http://spl.haxial.net/medical/circumcision/ According to this guy, intact men are less likely to rape, but I am thinking a rapist really won't care if he is circ'd or not.
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Originally Posted by MatrionsRevenge I was wondering about what statistics on rape and circumcision there was. How many circumcised men versus intact rape. Whether there was a difference or not. |
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ITA. That article seems to be based on opinion. It would be interesting to see stats (of course, we'd have to take into consideration the % of men circed compared to not circed as a whole also).
People are responsible for theyre own actions. There may be something to the idea that those who are abused have learnt that abusing someone else is an acceptable reaction. And circ is abuse.
But can we realy use that as an excuse for men's action's? "Don't blame me for the rape. I was circ'd at birth and that made me do it"
As someone who was abused (raped) I have never used it as an excuse to sexcually abuse anyone, or to do any sort of violence against children.
Oh and in USA of course you are going to find more circ'd rapist's than intact, as most men are circ'd.
And as for myself I came to the oposite conclusion, my abuser was intact and I asumed that being intact maked men more likely to abuse.
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When I came on a circ board and read smoething about circ leading to violence I nearly went away and made the decision to circ my son.
But can we realy use that as an excuse for men's action's? "Don't blame me for the rape. I was circ'd at birth and that made me do it"
As someone who was abused (raped) I have never used it as an excuse to sexcually abuse anyone, or to do any sort of violence against children.
Oh and in USA of course you are going to find more circ'd rapist's than intact, as most men are circ'd.
And as for myself I came to the oposite conclusion, my abuser was intact and I asumed that being intact maked men more likely to abuse.
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I imagine the amount of circumcised rapists in the U.S. outnumbers the rate of intact rapists simply because the number of circumcised men outnumbers the number of circumcised men.
Psychologically it would make sense, though. Rape is primarily about power and circumcision is an oppressive, brutal, raping act that steals power.
On the other hand, any number of things a child can experience during childhood could have the same or a similar psychological impact. And rape is hardly a rarity throughout the rest of the (majority intact) world.
Originally Posted by frontierpsych (of course, we'd have to take into consideration the % of men circed compared to not circed as a whole also). |
Psychologically it would make sense, though. Rape is primarily about power and circumcision is an oppressive, brutal, raping act that steals power.
On the other hand, any number of things a child can experience during childhood could have the same or a similar psychological impact. And rape is hardly a rarity throughout the rest of the (majority intact) world.
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In Women's Bodies, Women's Wisdom Dr. Christiane Northrup writes that she believes that if more men were intact that rape would be more rare. I can definately see that from a psychological standpoint. She mentions something about how it is more painful for an intact man to be with a woman who isn't aroused/wet because the foreskin feels like it will rip/tear, something like that. Anyone know if that's true?
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Hmm... Not quite sure. I would imagine that if they were going roughly and the woman was struggling there might be an increased chance that the frenulum would tear though.
As for this theory? Well obviously it is a highly controversial one but on a pychological and neurological level it might make some sense: although consious memory can not be stored by the body at that point there are theories that experiences are simply stored elsewhere on a more subconsious level.
Now if we accept that (and perhaps we should not) then it is easy to draw speculative conclusions as to the consequences that levels of pain analaogous to torture inflicted upon the penis would have.
However they are purely speculative. Statistics would definetely be required to support this.
Originally Posted by LoveChild421 She mentions something about how it is more painful for an intact man to be with a woman who isn't aroused/wet because the foreskin feels like it will rip/tear, something like that. Anyone know if that's true? |
As for this theory? Well obviously it is a highly controversial one but on a pychological and neurological level it might make some sense: although consious memory can not be stored by the body at that point there are theories that experiences are simply stored elsewhere on a more subconsious level.
Now if we accept that (and perhaps we should not) then it is easy to draw speculative conclusions as to the consequences that levels of pain analaogous to torture inflicted upon the penis would have.
However they are purely speculative. Statistics would definetely be required to support this.
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Circ may make SOME men more likely to rape, but the VAST MAJORITY of circ'd men are NOT rapists. We all know plenty of circ'd men in our lives who are not rapists.
It's more likely that circ'd men end up with PTSD:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=489437
It's more likely that circ'd men end up with PTSD:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=489437
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Yes. People are absolutely responsible for their own actions.
I think rapists rape because of how they were raised. If they were molested, abused physically or emotionally or observed abuse as a normal thing then they are very likely to abuse. Also living in such a horrible environment would lead to mental/emotional problems which would be another reason for raping. There has been studies that have shown men who abuse their wives also had father's who abused their moms or wives.
For circ to be abuse the "abuser" would be pruposely wanting to harm and cause pain to their subject. Many parents do so because they think circ is for the best. They are doing it because they think they are supposed to do that and they think of it as nothing more than a medical procedure for their baby. Many parents are misinformed or have religous reasons. But to put them in the category with "abusers" is just wrong.
| People are responsible for theyre own actions. There may be something to the idea that those who are abused have learnt that abusing someone else is an acceptable reaction. And circ is abuse. |
I think rapists rape because of how they were raised. If they were molested, abused physically or emotionally or observed abuse as a normal thing then they are very likely to abuse. Also living in such a horrible environment would lead to mental/emotional problems which would be another reason for raping. There has been studies that have shown men who abuse their wives also had father's who abused their moms or wives.
For circ to be abuse the "abuser" would be pruposely wanting to harm and cause pain to their subject. Many parents do so because they think circ is for the best. They are doing it because they think they are supposed to do that and they think of it as nothing more than a medical procedure for their baby. Many parents are misinformed or have religous reasons. But to put them in the category with "abusers" is just wrong.
I have always thought of circumcision to be a form of sexual rape on a boy. A rape of sexual innocence for sure. It wouldn't be out of the realm of consideration that someone who had been subjected to it might be more predisposed to violent tendencies later in life. That is not to suggest that it is solely a reason, but rather part of a compilation of plausible reasons why men are more violent.
I am sure that there is no desire by anyone, anywhere, to look at the correlations of rape in circumcising cultures vs. non-circumcising cultures and study it in detail.
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It would be very interesting to see if rape stats were higher in Islamic and American cultures then in non-circing cultures in Europe and South America.
I am sure that there is no desire by anyone, anywhere, to look at the correlations of rape in circumcising cultures vs. non-circumcising cultures and study it in detail.
It would be very interesting to see if rape stats were higher in Islamic and American cultures then in non-circing cultures in Europe and South America.
"But can we really use that as an excuse for men's action's? "Don't blame me for the rape. I was circ'd at birth and that made me do it"
kldliam says:
I wouldn't say that we should use circ as a way to excuse a man for his violent tendencies, just a tool for understanding how men are also victims of violence too. For me, it's about understanding the overall picture of violence that a rapist has been subjected too, when i try to consider 'why' he rapes. Circ just being one factor of many perhaps.
"I would think that years of socialization from caring families would trump any ill effects of the circumcision as it is only one isolated event no matter how traumatizing. Interesting idea, however"
kldliam
Yes, I agree here. I am not sure if circ is the contributing factor in a violent personality, but it is certainly part of the greater equation of violence that that person has been subjected to in his life.
"I imagine the amount of circumcised rapists in the U.S. outnumbers the rate of intact rapists simply because the number of circumcised men outnumbers the number of circumcised men."
Kldliam
Yes. One would need to compare a circing culture to a non-circing culture to draw any conclusions about the data.
"On the other hand, any number of things a child can experience during childhood could have the same or a similar psychological impact. And rape is hardly a rarity throughout the rest of the (majority intact) world."
Kldliam
Rape is not a rarity around the world, but it would be interesting to be able to look into a child's overall history of violence…and be able to see what acts of violence that child had been subjected to himself, including circ.
"She mentions something about how it is more painful for an intact man to be with a woman who isn't aroused/wet because the foreskin feels like it will rip/tear, something like that. Anyone know if that's true?"
kldliam
Sex without lube is tricky for anyone I would suspect. Male or female, circ'd or intact.
"For circ to be abuse the "abuser" would be purposely wanting to harm and cause pain to their subject. Many parents do so because they think circ is for the best. They are doing it because they think they are supposed to do that and they think of it as nothing more than a medical procedure for their baby. Many parents are misinformed or have religous reasons. But to put them in the category with "abusers" is just wrong."
Kldliam
Abusers don't always know they are being abusive. You don't have to "want" to abuse to be an abuser. Abuse is negative patterns of behavior, whether it is intended or not is really besides the point. I agree that people who circ are misinformed, misguided, etc… but I put the blame of 'abuse' squarely on the MD. The MD is the abuser IMO. HE knows better but takes the money anyway.
kldliam says:
I wouldn't say that we should use circ as a way to excuse a man for his violent tendencies, just a tool for understanding how men are also victims of violence too. For me, it's about understanding the overall picture of violence that a rapist has been subjected too, when i try to consider 'why' he rapes. Circ just being one factor of many perhaps.
"I would think that years of socialization from caring families would trump any ill effects of the circumcision as it is only one isolated event no matter how traumatizing. Interesting idea, however"
kldliam
Yes, I agree here. I am not sure if circ is the contributing factor in a violent personality, but it is certainly part of the greater equation of violence that that person has been subjected to in his life.
"I imagine the amount of circumcised rapists in the U.S. outnumbers the rate of intact rapists simply because the number of circumcised men outnumbers the number of circumcised men."
Kldliam
Yes. One would need to compare a circing culture to a non-circing culture to draw any conclusions about the data.
"On the other hand, any number of things a child can experience during childhood could have the same or a similar psychological impact. And rape is hardly a rarity throughout the rest of the (majority intact) world."
Kldliam
Rape is not a rarity around the world, but it would be interesting to be able to look into a child's overall history of violence…and be able to see what acts of violence that child had been subjected to himself, including circ.
"She mentions something about how it is more painful for an intact man to be with a woman who isn't aroused/wet because the foreskin feels like it will rip/tear, something like that. Anyone know if that's true?"
kldliam
Sex without lube is tricky for anyone I would suspect. Male or female, circ'd or intact.
"For circ to be abuse the "abuser" would be purposely wanting to harm and cause pain to their subject. Many parents do so because they think circ is for the best. They are doing it because they think they are supposed to do that and they think of it as nothing more than a medical procedure for their baby. Many parents are misinformed or have religous reasons. But to put them in the category with "abusers" is just wrong."
Kldliam
Abusers don't always know they are being abusive. You don't have to "want" to abuse to be an abuser. Abuse is negative patterns of behavior, whether it is intended or not is really besides the point. I agree that people who circ are misinformed, misguided, etc… but I put the blame of 'abuse' squarely on the MD. The MD is the abuser IMO. HE knows better but takes the money anyway.
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Excellent point.
| The MD is the abuser IMO. HE knows better but takes the money anyway |
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Some people physically abuse their kids because the Bible says, "Spare the rod; spoil the child." I know that's wrong, of course, but that's the justification some people use. The excuse of "intent" is not good enough. Newborns don't know that their parents mean well; all they know is that they are being strapped to a board while part of their body is being ripped off. The psychological effects are the same (evidenced by the fact that circ'd boys have lower thresholds of pain than either girls or intact boys.)
Originally Posted by momof3sweeties Y For circ to be abuse the "abuser" would be pruposely wanting to harm and cause pain to their subject. Many parents do so because they think circ is for the best. They are doing it because they think they are supposed to do that and they think of it as nothing more than a medical procedure for their baby. Many parents are misinformed or have religous reasons. But to put them in the category with "abusers" is just wrong. |
Some people physically abuse their kids because the Bible says, "Spare the rod; spoil the child." I know that's wrong, of course, but that's the justification some people use. The excuse of "intent" is not good enough. Newborns don't know that their parents mean well; all they know is that they are being strapped to a board while part of their body is being ripped off. The psychological effects are the same (evidenced by the fact that circ'd boys have lower thresholds of pain than either girls or intact boys.)
Don't know any statistics on this but frankly, it seems like a ridiculous argument to make. I mean, throughout history, there have been any number of geographical areas with mostly intact men. Countries where there were few Jews, Muslims or other circing groups. Say, all of medieval Europe, for example.
Was there no rape then? Hardly. Men are men. Some of them are going to be rapists, regardless of the configuration of their penises.
Was there no rape then? Hardly. Men are men. Some of them are going to be rapists, regardless of the configuration of their penises.
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