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...here's a blueprint for very easy, risk free PERMANENT measles immunity.

The power of the immune system

All parents of non-vaxed children should realize that their children are the ones they don't need to worry about when they get sick. The key is the nutrition that they receive from day one and especially what they get during the illness.

My son is just now finishing his immunity to MEASLES!!

Breastfed since birth (he is now 18 months)

Raised on organic food, an avid eater of my highest quality homemade probiotic (both acidophilus and bifidus including the ambients) yogurt.

He went with my wife to visit his grandmother and on the return flight on both legs my wife had to sit next to a mother and infant who were both extremely ill and coughing continuously. My wife overheard the mother telling her husband that she was seeing a rash on the child.

When I heard this I realized that we were probably in for measles, and 14 days later my son had coughing and runny nose. Fever went to 103.4 back down under 100 back up to 101.5 and finally subsided after 6 days. The rash didn't come until day 8 and has been relatively light (I think due to the strength of his immune system.)

Medicine was lots of my yogurt (it is powerfully antibiotic and antiviral--I have discovered this from my own self-medicating)

1 Tablespoon of cod liver oil /day
about 750 mg of C in a smoothie of blended organic strawberries, bananas, mango and papaya

Except for day 2, my son has been eating and drinking and playing normally.

Do not ask your pediatrician to confirm diagnostically the illness, because then they have to report it and have on record that a child under their supervision is not being vaccinated.

Instead, 2 weeks after the illness, the antibody levels in the blood should be at the highest level, have an IGM blood test done. In as much as the test only confirms the immunity and not the SOURCE of the immunity-- ie, it could be vaccine or illness induced-- it removes that issue from the equation.

Who knows if the child that gave my son measles was vaccinated. I think, probably yes. Remember vaccines are a gamble as far as accomplishing immunity. Individual types of vaccines vary in their effectiveness, and I think even different brands within each type have varying efficacy.

doctors find what they are looking for and if they think kids are being effectively immunized for measles they won't diagnose measles when it happens, and therefore (LOL) there is no measles in the population.

I am in central NC and am trying to form a natural immunity group. If your interested and in the area , email me.

Sincerely,

Ray
 

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Yes, it was a wild-type measles virus...
...caught by my son on an airplane from a sick mother and child--the father seemed alright-- who were close by. My wife overheard the mother say to her husband that she was beginning to see a rash. I wasn't there but when my wife told me I had a good idea-- regardless of what the CDC would like us to believe about the availability of diseases that they vaccinate for-- of what was coming.

The fever began exactly 14 days after exposure. Runny nose--wet coughs (not excessive)--- congestion-- as well We consulted the "Prescription for Nutritional Healing" by Phyllis A. Balch, CNC and James F. Balch, M.D. and noticed specifically mention of cod liver oil, and Vit. C with bioflavinoids. Both of which we keep on hand. My son has loved my probiotic yogurt from early on. He is,as well, crazy about a smoothie I make of organic strawberries, mangos, papayas and bananas. Often the yogurt and smoothie go together in a single cup. Apparently bananas have a fiber --inulin -- which promotes the probiotic breeding in the gut. The other fruits have bioflavinoids which enhance the absorption of ascorbic acid (or sometimes calcium ascorbate) in the stomach-- after which (the intestines) it can't be absorbed and is excreted. The C I've been doing for 20 years.

Thanks to Hilary, I now know how significant the cod liver oil was as well-- due to its Vit. A content.

In our house the breastmilk is a given--given and given and given--- to the point that we are going to see a John Pittman, M.D. here in central N.C. (his philosophy works with the body's biochemistry-- not drugs.) to check and make sure that all of the nutrients my wife is putting into our son are not creating any type of deficiency in her body as we begin the process of a second child. I don't know what's going to happen with the breastfeeding as she progresses (the boy is 30 lbs and 36" at 18 mo) through the pregnancy, but my wife will not deny him and he relishes his nursing. I have thought perhaps of using organic, homemade vegetable juices to supply micronutrients, but I'll wait to see what Pittman says.

The rash was a flash (a day and a half), the raised aspect of the bumps really only visible by shining a flashlight across his chest and back. Nothing on his legs or face, no itching, he ate, drank and played normally except for about 5 hours during the height of the fever (103.4) which then was about 103 for about 12 hours.
The rash came 9 days after the onset.

I wish my parents had know what I know when I had my measles in the early 60's. Actually, the only memoryes I have of childhood diseases is being fed crumbs of hamburger when I had mumps.

Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food,
(Hippocrates)

Ray
 

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Piglet,

RE:

though I am still researching the differences between immunity gained through vaccination versus immunity gained through getting these illnesses as a child

Increased Susceptibility to Measles in Infants in the United States
Papania M, Baughman A, Lee S, et al.
Pediatrics. 1999;104(5):e59

Women who had the measles vaccine available to them at the time of their pregnancies seem to deliver infants with more susceptibility to measles than mothers who did not have the vaccine available. Those findings, from this CDC study, may help explain the resurgence of measles that was seen in the US between 1989 and 1991.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/419093

Took 30 years to realize the impact of the measles vaccine. Babies are no longer protected in the early months when they are more at risk for complications. Not only that, by taking the virus out of circulation, NO ONE is getting "natural" boosters, making EVERYONE more susceptible.

I shudder to think of what will be discovered over the next 30 years.

Christine
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
goodpapa: the credibility I'm referring to is not the fact that no system is perfect. certainly mistakes have been made throughout the history of drug development, as they have in any human endeavour. my issue with the Dr. Rath website is not that human errors have been made, but that information is on there which is simply not correct and the result, for someone like myself, is the strong feeling that this is the product of a "conspiracy theorist". Such attitudes turn me off, so I suspect they turn others off, too. I simply wanted to point out that if one is going to hand out links to people searching for info on not vaxing, give them the best!


Hilary, I was not at all taken aback by what you said. You made perfect sense. Believe me, I know that every decision we make as parents has consequences that we must live with. All we can do is hope to stack the odds in our favour, and as you well pointed out, we must be prepared to accept the consequences. I think the only thing that prevents us from beating ourselves to death with guilt is making the decision that feels the very best in your heart of hearts. Only with that kind of assurance and comfort can you later accept you did the best you could and sometimes Life just sucks. If there is any doubt (as I have right now) then it could be disastrous either way. That is why I'm here. I have doubts about giving DD the MMR vaccine, but doubts about why I should not, and I don't want any doubts. Regardless of which decision I make (to give it , or not) I must feel 100% good about the decision.

This is one reason why, at this point in time, my decision is "delay it". I think kama'aina put it best: you can always do it later, but once it's done, it's done. That's why we haven't done it, have no appointment to do it, and have not decided when or if we will. By me saying "I'm not yet convinced on many points" what I meant was, I'm going through this information and I'm not yet convinced.
 

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...at least for the meantime we will have "convince(d) (you) to skip MMR." Alot of work went into this temporary reprieve, but I guess, as they say, it's one soul at a time.

You still didn't take a look at the long list of studies evident on the link I posted. Really, do yourself a favor and read about the power of proper nutrition. Our human bodies and chemistry did not spring out of thin air (unless you are a creationist) but are INEXTRICABLY linked, part and parcel of, wholly concomitant with the Natural world from which we feed and sustain ourselves.

How about:
"A Systematic Study of the Effect of Vitamin C Supplementation on the Humoral Immune Response in Ascorbate-Dependent Mammals"
0r:
"Vitamin A deficiency predisposes to Staphylococcus aureus infection"
or:
"Vitamin A supplementation improves macrophage function and bacterial clearance during experimental salmonella infection."
or:
"Dietary Vitamin A intake and the incidence of diarrhea and respiratory infection amon Sudanese children."

Does my son's experience with measles mean absolutely nothing?
Remember that the basis of human knowledge is anecdotal evidence. Without this we would never have survived.

The only time I use the "C" word is when simple fact is ignored, even unexamined, and it's always "they" who are guilty.

Kind of reminds me of the old school anthropologists going out into "primitive" tribes to find human pathology.

How about this one--

"Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food"

That was good ole' Hippocrates.

Ray
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
I was going to follow my previous post immediately with another addressing the reference that suschi gave (the papania, boughman, et al paper). Excellent stuff and led me to some very useful studies....But then my mother's lovebird decided to make a break for freedom under my watch and after a lengthy search he's not been found.


goodpapa, thanks for understanding: I honestly was not trying to criticize you in any way. and yes, I saw the page with the million links, lol - I would like to go through it when I have some time. I do believe that we are what we eat, to a large extent. Coming from a traditional health sciences education (btw, my doctorate is in Pharmacology), the philosophy you are describing (vitamins, probiotics, etc) is as unfamiliar to me as christianity might be to a lifelong buddhist never exposed to it. They are truly different "religions", a whole new way of looking at health and medicine, and I'm humbled by how much research I'd have to do to get a thorough understanding of that. I'm going to have to temporarily set that aside for the more immediate goal of weighing the pros and cons of vaxing my DD (though I do appreciate they are related).

Hilary, I'll address your post later to try to keep this from being ridiculously long.


I wanted to get to the study by Papania et al. It's fascinating (but not surprising) that babies are more susceptible to measles when Mum has received immunity through vaccination. It's interesting that such babies have a stronger response to vaccines, too. This points to natural immunity being "better" than that induced by vaccines. This is where I'm at today and I'm following that trail.

I have to cut this short..baby calls.....but I'll post back again very soon. A neat talk with DH today and we've definitely decided to delay until school-age. IN the meantime, the resarch contineus..
 

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Quote:
at this point in time, my decision is "delay it". I think kama'aina put it best: you can always do it later, but once it's done, it's done. That's why we haven't done it, have no appointment to do it, and have not decided when or if we will.
Piglet, ditto. Same here. I'm with your 100%. Couldn't have said it better myself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
goodpapa, I'm finally tackling some of those articles ref'd on Rath's page and some of your other links. Also re-read your story of your son's immunity (one quick question: fortuitous that he got it, but what if one desires natural immunity but can't get measles for trying? is a "measles party" the only answer??).

Hilary, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the time and patience you have shown in your posting to me. When I first came to this forum, I felt like I'd jumped into a discussion that had been going on for years. I am starting from an absolute square one here, and I do appreciate that you have had to send the conversation in reverse many times to get me oriented. (while it seems like a conversation, rather than a thread, I hope this is helping anyone else going through what I am). But I am slowly feeling like I'm getting there...and I so appreciate what you said about "needing strong convictions based on real knowledge". It goes back to what I said earlier: a decision like this, for better or for worse, must be made with 100% confidence in order to prepare for the possibility that a) you were wrong, or b) you were right but ended up in the tiny minority exception for whom even the right choice didn't help. I need to ask questions, and be skeptical, and prod everyone for more info...in order to make my informed decision.

My decision to delay the vax (where me and DH stand right now) is based on the fact that getting these illnesses as a child is basically a mild condition and gives the wonderful bonus of lifelong immunity. However, if she isn't "lucky" enough to get it in the next few years, we'll reconsider getting her the vax when she is school-aged. This also gives me alot more time (whew!) to do the research.

Now, to your last two posts: you mentioned the fact that people seem to assume that an infant's immune system is the same as an adult's. I run across this type of problem all the time in my own research (lack of appropriately age-matched controls). For obvious reasons, it is very difficult to conduct research on infants and people do tend to just extrapolate data from adults to them without consideration of the differences.

I am already of the opinion that infant physiology is significantly different from that of adults (which is why I delayed introduction of solid foods and a major reason why I declined the Hep B vaccine). I also do not need to be convinced of the importance of breastmilk in establishing and maintaining healthy immunity for one's infant, lol, so the ramifications of that simple fact to what you are saying makes perfect sense to me.

Now, where I'm stuck (but keep in mind I'm still reading...lol):

In the old days a mum got measles, passed the immunity on to her baby, baby was protected for about 18 months, then in the next few years gets measles, grows up and the cycle starts over again. But...not everybody got measles. In 1960 there were about 440,000 cases in the US. The people with natural immunity were a minority. If a mum grew up never getting measles, her kid has much higher susceptibility to it. That probably explains why the numbers of babies dying from measles was considered unacceptably high and why they decided measles needed to be eradicated. What can you tell me about my reasoning here? (which not only points to the overall "societal good" of mass vaxes, but to my unvaxed DD's poor chances of getting measles to grant her the precious natural immunity).

In other words, it may be great to get measles when you're young, but most people weren't getting it at all. If one accepts that vaxed kids have a much lower chance of getting measles then unvaxed kids do (even if the failure rate for vaxes is 15%, that still means millions of kids do get immunity), it makes sense that a program of mass vaxing makes measles incidence even tinier and thus those dying of it even fewer in number, and isn't it better that almost everyone has some immunity to it than only a minority having excellent immunity to it? What's the alternative, to have everybody infected with the real thing (mass measles parties?) so that everybody gets the best (ie. natural) immunity to it?
:

On another note, I have to point out that I share your opinion of Pharmacists, lol. We pharmacologists usually do. We forever spend our lives in this conversation:

interested person: "so what are you studying at school?"
us, dreading the predicted response: "pharmacology"
them: "oh, so you're going to be a pharmacist!"
us:


A pharmacologist is not the same thing as a pharmacist, though our disciplines do overlap in some areas. We study not just prescription drugs, but drugs, toxins, experimental drugs, drugs only useful as experimental tools, you name it. We work on a basic research level, for the most part. I'm very familiar with how drugs work, how the body handles them, etc. and we're not always particularly concerned with whether they are of any benefit to mankind, but rather are simply fascinated with the study of what they do and what that tells us about how our bodies work. <insert geek emoticon here>
 

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...it was wonderful to see your acknowlegement of and appreciation for Hilary's "time and patience." Her genius and compassion are a rare combination in this age. I shudder to think of the tenuous hold these threads have on a meaningful existence with so much reliant upon so few. But I take my luck where I find it, and squirrel it away for the past, present and future.

Measles parties? You betcha !! Only we got lucky with this one. I've started the immunity project for my boy early I believe (one fellow activist in my area thought 18 mo. a little early--but we WERE prepared.)

Mumps, chickenpox? I'll try locally for now, searching more industriously at age 3 (I'd like to be able to talk to him during the process) but if I have trouble finding them I, hopefully, will have enough credibility on these threads to actually get someone to come out with their child's illness or that of a friend (a PM seems safe enough to me). If it can't be done in a feeling of fellowship, I see no reason not to pay, in addition to the cost of travel.

Unfortunately, I was not able to share my son's illness and grant immunity to another child, but I don't know if I would have felt comfortable with it unless I knew that that child was going to receive the full nutritional support that my son did.

This and so many of the logical conclusions to what Hilary so generously explained (ah the power and glory of beautiful rhetoric) are the reasons I feel unable to simple say no to the vax and go on with the rest of my life.

Even those who choose not to vax are still not free of the world that remains.

Life is not our gift---
sharing it is,

Ray
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
I'll be working on a reply later when I have more time. I have to just clarify something: that quote from me that your second-to-last post gives is NOT MY CONCLUSIONS OR MY ASSUPTIONS.

I'm sorry if it wasn't clear I was playing devil's advocate in a sense. thw whole statement was a question.. i must go now. dd needs me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Talk about grumpy. I've worked all night, literally, putting together a response and I lost the whole thing.

Look, you misunderstood me. It happens in text-only communication. And you're not the first one to discover my bad habit of posting questions as statements. My fault. I only wish you'd taken the time to ask me for clarification before spending your time and energy writing a reply that wasn't necessary b/c I don't disagree with you where you thought I did. There was no need to rail on "people like me" - my degrees, my profession, or my colleagues.


I need to put an end to this thread. I never asked for, nor expected, the amount of time you put into your posts. I'm not worth getting stressed out over. And I have used up all my precious free time and more for three nights in a row for this, and it has to end for me.

You've convinced me of many points: measles was never an issue in the first place, and certainly isn't one now. I feel the same way about the other "nuisance illnesses". The risks, even if small, of adverse effects from the vax outweigh the risks otherwise. This has given me the confidence to delay MMR for the foreseeable future. In the meantime, I'll continue to do research on my own. (damn, I'd written a much longer explanation of this that I think you'd have really enjoyed reading but it's gone into cyberspace and I am too exhausted to try and recall it all).

I got what I came here for. A good understanding of the anti-vax standpoints. You've pointed me in the right direction, armed me with the right questions, and I think I can take it from here. I'm very very grateful to you. I don't, and won't, agree with you on everything and I'm not even going to waste my time with a rebuttal of those points b/c they are really not important to the discussion at hand and again, I simply don't have the time or energy. But I hope you might at least take some pleasure in my decision, made with confidence, to hold off on MMR. We won't be getting varicella vax either, btw.

I do have to say, your comments about degrees and scientists and the medical profession were hurtful. I understand in your line of work how one could become soured to all that, but try to remember that corruption and greed and deceit exist in all human endeavours, be it clergy, garbage men, charitable organizations, government, or politics. It didn't take "courage" for me to come here and ask questions. That's what I was trained to do. And while I've come down on your side, at least with respect to my original question (do I really need to give MMR?), that doesn't mean my faith in science has been shattered. I don't find human fallability to be all that surprising.

so goodnight, and goodbye, at least for this thread! thanks again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
So here I find myself, drawn back to my keyboard, at a ridiculously early time in the am (for me), given I was up ridiculously late last night. I can't get this issue out of my head (nor the loss of a really good post). Maybe I need to be vaccinated against keyboard diarrhea, whattaya think?


I PM'd you to clarify the lack of clarity in my earlier post.


What I really wanted to post here was a lengthier explanation of why I came to the conclusions I did, b/c I think that's helpful to others who might be following this (if they're all not asleep by now, lol).

Vaxes, medicines, surgeries...all these medical procedures come with risks. Every time we partake in one of these we must weigh the risks and benefits. The question any parent should first ask themselves is whether the risk of getting the vaccine outweighs the risks of not. Given the currently low risks, the answer for all of them is "not really".

But then I need to get ethical and ask myself if I'm just taking advantage of everyone else getting vaxed. I'm now convinced that I'm not. In the few years prior to introduction of the vax, the rate of measles was about 440,000 and of those, about 500 died. 500 people in a country of how many million in those days? That's a pretty slim chance. Add to that the questions about those 500 people: were they sick? premature babies fed inadequate formula? immunocompromised individuals? And that lessens the chances of my healthy, breastfed baby getting it even were she transported back to 1961. So no, I don't feel bad about it. I don't think measles was ever the big problem they made it out to be.

Chicken pox is an even better example b/c, according to one site, there are only 100 deaths from chicken pox, 90% of which are "children" and most of those "healthy" beforehand. Even if we accept they were healthy, we are talking about 70 or 80 (generously) in a population of half a billion people. As a scientist VERY familiar with the concept of biovariability, these people almost *certainly* have something going on with them that distinguishes them from the average joe. They are not, by definition, "normal".

These statistics simply do not warrant a campaign to "eradicate the disease". And if I were suffereing from a more serious ailment, research for which is almost totally lacking b/c "not enough people suffer from it", I would be angry beyond belief. What a waste of government money and resources.

Hilary said "what I find surprising is when human failure is then translated into deliberate propaganda".

I don't. It's called "advertising". :LOL

(PS: thanks to goodpapa, too. you contributed alot of time as well and it is appreciated!)
 

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piglet,

I just wanted to say that there is something in the air about threads taking weird turns. I got caught in a riptide on TAO thread. I never expected the turns it took. Then there was one in Spiritual that took odd turns.

I swear it is in the air.

anyway, Piglet, I'm glad you have done the research you needed and come to some answers about MMR et al.

personal note, off topic warning...

I've said this before, I started researching when pregnant but really kicked it up when ds was born. my son was born 7-12-01. therefore his 2 month well baby visit was the week of, drum rolll...... september 11, 2001. I had cascading hormones on the morning of the 11th, gee, I wonder why...and right away, the media brought up biological warfare. I was on the road to delaying but my fears with the hormones with my hair falling out, stresss. etc.. I pushed the appontment a couple weeks. I dug in, went to a lecture on vaxes and found my center. My pediatrician is in his 70's. I went to him and said we're delaying. And god bless him, he didn't give us any grief. He made a case for pertussis and hib (as I recall) but then let it go.
I say all that to say that we can research and stuff can happen and it makes us question stuff but then we find our center and of course research. For me, research soothes the beast.

this personal note is so off topic..but just wanted to share it for some odd reason.
I need more coffee.
 

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Piglet - You sound stressed and the last thing I want to do is stress you. But my argument for not vaxing hasn't been clearly stated here so I thought I would share it with you.

I don't believe that:
- since these diseases aren't around that my child won't get them
- if other children are vaxd my child will be safe
- if I breastfeed my child will not get sick
- my child will have lifetime immunity if I expose her to the natural disease

The reason I DON'T vax is because I have the resources to deal with any disease my child contracts. I stongly believe that "serious complications" of certain diseases primarily happen because of modern medicine or lack of treatment. That might seem like a contradiction, but it's not if one stops limiting oneself to the idea that treatment = drugs, doctors and hospitalization. I have seen babies get sicker after going to doctors and getting 5 prescriptions and I have seen babies get sicker when a parent refuses any care and prefers to just wait and see.

The only reason we are not vaxing is because if and when my child contracts a vaccine preventable disease I have acupuncturists, holistic practitioners, chiropractors, mainstream pediatricians, herbalists and mothering
all lined up to help my child fight the illness.

I do not reccomend that any parent go against western medicine (like not vax'ing) if the parent only has western medicine to turn to when something goes wrong. A modern doc, having prob never seen nor treated a case of polio will most likely attack the illness with every type of antibiotic and immunosuppressant known to man, along with hospitalization, which I think we all agree, opens up an array of possible secondary infections and complications. Overeaction to illness is what I believe causes most "serious complications" or death in childhood illness.

It is my belief (call it a religion) that the body knows how to defeat illness but can only do so when it's system is not being compromised. When you only do things that enhance the immune system and nothing to inhibit the immune response, then most illness can be defeated.

So please do not skip the vax without having some resources to help boost your childs immune system. It's like parents who say they have a cool ped bcuz he doesn't give out antibiotics. Well, what does she recommend in place of antibiotics, just staring at your child until something bad happens?

I guess I should also share that when I was 4, I was paralyzed from the neck down for 6 months and almost died due to my DPT shot. Back then they told my mom that vaccines were safe. They are telling us the same thing today. Why should I believe them?

I really hope this just adds to more thought on the subject and not stress. There is no need to respond, unless you want to ask a question.
 

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WOW! I have just skimmed through this thread looking for an answer to a question I had. I didn't see my answer, so I will ask the question now-forgive me if i missed the answer in what has already been written. Why does waiting until my child reaches 2 or older help her with the MMR or any other vaccine? Is it because the immune system has had a chance to mature? My daughter is now 3, and has not had MMR or Varicella. My gut is telling me not to do MMR at all, and i have finally learned to listen to myself after all these years. I am curious though about the age thing. Anybody have a reason?
 

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I never thought I would get to the end of this thread. To date, this is the most I've read on the vax issue.
My dd just turned a year. At her 1 yr visit (which was 3 days early), we were told that even if we wanted it, they would not give her MMR until THE DAY of her birthday. As the doc said, somehow, baby's immune system is magically able to handle it then and not before. If I had been more armed I might have asked how they know she CAN handle it.
Anyway, my point is that this thread has really helped me understand the issue. What bothers me the most is that vaxing is so unquestioned and mainstream. Most people just get it because every one else does and that makes it safe. Even me, at dd's 2 month checkup. I knew some people didn't vax, but I figured if it was so bad, there'd be more people not doing it.
We had already decided to delay MMR while I do the research. Now, I see where medicine has gone wrong. I now sense that vaccines are inherently harmful and wrong. I still have more research to do, I still feel uneasy when I think of not vaxing my dd. Then again I feel absolutely sick to my gut when I think of the stuff they injected into my infant.
I signed up for a class on vaccines given by a naturopath, featureing alternatives to vaxing. It's $5, and I think it should be interesting.

Hilary, I would like to apologize for being one of THEM:
"There is a tendency here, for the majority to expect that minority to do their research and thinking for them. I am a lot more worried about the apparent inability of people here to research and think the issues through for themselves, than I am about the issue. "

It's not that I wanted my research done for me, I just found the issue overwhelming, not knowing where to begin. There's so much out there it's hard to know what to believe anymore. I was just asking for help in getting started. This is in regards to a thread I posted awhile ago.
http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...threadid=84010
 
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