[chirp]

long story short: dh doesn't help around the house or with the baby. he leaves without ok'ing it, if i ask him to do something he's reluctant or cops out by calling himself stupid. of course, when it comes to friends he'll bend over backwards. including 1 friend he had a crush on in high school (DF2, below)

DH-

I need you to understand that I DON"T get a day off, or a week, or a summer.

I need you to understand that because then I think the ways you could help would be simple for you to identify.

I hate feeling like I HAVE to outline everything I Need help with. I feel like it's obvious when the house is a mess and the baby still has to get a bath and get ready for bed. Or if dinner's on the stove and I have to stop everything to change a diaper. Or if I'm doing laundry and he's crying because he can't be in my arms. With one person, all of this is overwhelming. With two it's not impossible.

If you want to make it seem like DF1 (male) only helps DF2 (old, female friend of DH) because he stays at home, then fine. Then YOU are DF2 and I am DF1. When DF2 gets home from work she doesn't just stay on the computer or play video games. She cooks dinner. They both clean up afterward. Because DINNER is a FAMILY thing. And not just something she does FOR DF1.

You said you wanted to start eating dinner together. Well dinner doesn't just magically appear on the table and clean itself up afterwards. Dinner doesn't happen in a vaccuum where there's nothing else to do or take care of. And dinner definitely doesn't plan and shop for itself.

If I get out for an hour and half each week WITHOUT the baby it's a damned miracle. How would you like to not leave work except for an hour and half a week?

Cleaning the house is not WORK. Cleaning the house is something you always have to do...whether your single or married with kids or without. Even if you're on vacation. Even if you have a wife who stays home. Because I'm not just a wife. I'm a mother. And I'm also a person who has interests beyond this house and the baby.

I don't know what else to say. It's not like I want to go spend time at my Mom's. What I really want is someone to help me, and she will help. Of course, then I have to LEAVE MY OWN HOUSE to get help...so in the end all it does is put everything on the back burner until i get home.

I'm not saying you don't do anything. But the proportion of work is seriously out of wack. And you tell me to just let you know what i need but then I get an atittude about it and I DON"T APPRECIATE THAT.

If you're going to help, then help. If you're not, then stop jerking me around. Cause I can be a single mom ON MY OWN.

You say I'm taking your son away from you. Tell me one routine that he's gonna miss not having you around. I'm not just asking you something like that to hurt you. I seriously want to know. What does he associate with you that he can't get anywhere else?

DF1 payed more attention to him this weekend. Did you catch that? While you played video games for however many hours (ONLY TO GET UP WHEN DF2 NEEDED SOMETHING! which I didn't appreciate) DF1 and I were making sure our kid wasn't getting into anything he shouldn't. That was completely ridiculous. But if DF2 needed something you were all over it whether you got your name on the scoreboard or not. What, exactly, am I supposed to think about that?

You were quick to jump up and get out of the house for her...you were quick to jump out of the house as soon as we got home. You took a little "trip" leaving me to tend to the baby WITHOUT a SECOND THOUGHT!!

I know it's hard. But the longer you wait the harder it's going to get on all three of us. Because he'll end up not expecting any kind of care from you at all. And get upset when you try. And I'll just get more and more burnt out. And you'll just sit there feeling sorry for yourself and calling yourself dumb.

-j

 

[earthmama369]

I would give that to my husband if he were acting like that.

I might end the letter with some concrete examples of what he could do that would be most useful/helpful, to steer things in a productive direction and give him a starting point. End the letter on an "up" note, you know? But I wouldn't downplay the desperation and NEED for balance that you expressed in the letter. Letters are what you write to your partner when they're not hearing your words, so don't shy away from the strength of your message.

 

[mamalisa]

I think you did a good job outlining exactly what the problem is and how you would like him to fix it. I'd be careful talking about his behavior towards the friend because it could be construed as jealousy (even if it's not). I might even end it on the sentence about his lack of impact in his son's life. It means more that he doesn't do things with his son, than he does do things for his friends.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this, I'd be mighty pissed.

 

[chirp]

oh it is definitely jealousy.

no way to get around that...might as well be truthful about it.

i added this...not exactly an "up" point, but I still felt it needed to be added.

Find something you can stand doing, that will help US out AND DO IT. Consistently. There are all kinds of things that need to be done. Laundry, dishes, sweeping, feeding the cat, cleaning the litterbox, diaper laundry, putting the toys and other crap that accumulates on the floor throughout the day away, cooking dinner, making your own lunch, changing diapers, reading to the baby, listening to music with the baby, sweeping, mopping, feeding the baby, whatever it is you'd like to do. Just do SOMETHING. Consistently. Something I can count on being done. Something I can cross off my list.

There's a lot more than that. If nothing in that quick list appeals to you, perhaps we can find something else. And don't offer to do all the things outside of the house. THat sucks. I like to do things outside of the house too. Leaving me at home while you run all over town and do the "out things" just makes me more jaded because I feel like you KNOW how hard it is to be in the house and are always choosing the easy way out.

It would mean a lot to me if you did the dishes since I prepare the meals. But since you couldn't find it in you to do that I offered to let you get the baby ready for bed while I clean up. Even that hasn't happened. You HAVE to pick one. At least one. That you are willing to do.

 

[chirp]

and this

I'm angry but I dont want to end this letter without telling you that I love you. And that I'm angry but I'm also sad. Because I don't know how else to addesss this. ANd this MUST be addressed.

 

[New_Natural_Mom]

*gently* Is there a way to phrase it more positively? I totally *get* where you are and what you are feeling, and see that those feelings are justified, but I can see this letter being taken badly. As a stranger I read it and could feel all the resentment and frustration underneath. I know how it feels to have these issues sit unresolved and just want to get it all out.

Perhaps start by asking him what he thinks of your situation. How he feels when he gets home. There are some thoughts or feelings on his end that are driving this behavior. You won't know where he is coming from unless you ask. Maybe he feels inferior or inadequate. Maybe he feels critiqued. (I have no idea, just throwing things out there.)

There is a book called Non-Violent Communication that I find very helpful.

I don't know what your DH could do with that letter short of getting defensive.

Again, no attack on you. I know what it is like to get frustrated by dense hubbys. My suggestion is that you look at this letter with the end result in mind. Do you want to vent or to cause change?

 

[chirp]

i really want to do both (vent and change).

he just came home for "lunch" (his break is early.) i told him that i was going to send him an email.

i need this letter to show my anger because i'm not good at expressing anger. it always comes out as tears and stuttering. i told him that after he read the letter i would be willing to listen to his side of things. that the letter was angry but that it got ALL my points across which is something i have trouble doing while talking. that i would be willing to listen to his points more once i felt that i actually got what was on my chest...off of it.

i see what you mean about this letter being the antithesis of gentle. and i definitely know what you're driving at. when we talk later, having got this off my chest, we can be gentle. does that make sense?

he did mention us getting counseling, which is good. and different.

 

[mamalisa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chirp oh it is definitely jealousy. no way to get around that...might as well be truthful about it. i added this...not exactly an "up" point, but I still felt it needed to be added. Find something you can stand doing, that will help US out AND DO IT. Consistently. There are all kinds of things that need to be done. Laundry, dishes, sweeping, feeding the cat, cleaning the litterbox, diaper laundry, putting the toys and other crap that accumulates on the floor throughout the day away, cooking dinner, making your own lunch, changing diapers, reading to the baby, listening to music with the baby, sweeping, mopping, feeding the baby, whatever it is you'd like to do. Just do SOMETHING. Consistently. Something I can count on being done. Something I can cross off my list. There's a lot more than that. If nothing in that quick list appeals to you, perhaps we can find something else. And don't offer to do all the things outside of the house. THat sucks. I like to do things outside of the house too. Leaving me at home while you run all over town and do the "out things" just makes me more jaded because I feel like you KNOW how hard it is to be in the house and are always choosing the easy way out. It would mean a lot to me if you did the dishes since I prepare the meals. But since you couldn't find it in you to do that I offered to let you get the baby ready for bed while I clean up. Even that hasn't happened. You HAVE to pick one. At least one. That you are willing to do.

I just think it will distract from your message. It could give him something else to focus on...not that you're upset because he's not doing his share you're upset because you're jealous of his friend. I'd leave it out personally and save it for a different conversation. Or put it in the phrasing that you see how easy it is for him to help friends, but he isnt' that available to help you. Just and outsider's perspective on how things can get twisted up and the original thought left in the dust, while the stuff that doesn't affect you day to day gets put in the center of the fight.

 

[chirp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamalisa I just think it will distract from your message. It could give him something else to focus on...not that you're upset because he's not doing his share you're upset because you're jealous of his friend. I'd leave it out personally and save it for a different conversation. Or put it in the phrasing that you see how easy it is for him to help friends, but he isnt' that available to help you. Just and outsider's perspective on how things can get twisted up and the original thought left in the dust, while the stuff that doesn't affect you day to day gets put in the center of the fight.

that is where most of the jealousy comes from. NOW they are like siblings...i don't really worry about a sexual relationship evolving from this...but his availability to her is way more than what he has for me or his own child.

 

[Theoretica]

Quote:

Originally Posted by New_Natural_Mom *gently* Is there a way to phrase it more positively? I totally *get* where you are and what you are feeling, and see that those feelings are justified, but I can see this letter being taken badly. As a stranger I read it and could feel all the resentment and frustration underneath. I know how it feels to have these issues sit unresolved and just want to get it all out. Perhaps start by asking him what he thinks of your situation. How he feels when he gets home. There are some thoughts or feelings on his end that are driving this behavior. You won't know where he is coming from unless you ask. Maybe he feels inferior or inadequate. Maybe he feels critiqued. (I have no idea, just throwing things out there.) There is a book called Non-Violent Communication that I find very helpful. I don't know what your DH could do with that letter short of getting defensive. Again, no attack on you. I know what it is like to get frustrated by dense hubbys. My suggestion is that you look at this letter with the end result in mind. Do you want to vent or to cause change?

ITA with this post, well said!

OP, I felt the same way reading it. I hear that you are wanting things to change, but the letter was a vent (and a justified one at that!

). Can you vent a bit more here on this thread, and maybe we can help you reword so that it's taken constructively and he's able to embrace the idea of positive steps to support you?

 

[chirp]

vent as in when he comes home he either goes to sleep, plays video games or watches tv?

if he holds the baby for more than 10 minutes he's done his job for the day?

if i ask him to do something i get a look, a grunt, a sigh or a violent banging around of whatever's close at hand rather than an okay, no i can't, or in a minute?

how he'll drive every week an hour (at least!) to see his friends and folks but if i want to take the car twenty minutes away to an hour yoga class it's ludicrous (b/c of the health of the car.)

how we'll drive three hours to see his "sister" but we can't visit my mom while we're up there?

how i'll make curry or frijoles and he won't touch them with a ten foot pole (even if i modify the recipe so he'll like it more.) but if his sister cooks it he's more than happy to have seconds even though it's spicier with nuts in it...something he's not a fan of.

how i can count the number of diaper changes he did last week on one hand...even though he was OFF ALL WEEK? (2, TWICE, in case your curious.)

how i can count the # of times he's tried to feed the baby--twice.

how i can count the # of times he's comforted the baby at night without getting frustrated and waking the baby up more? again twice.

how he calls himself stupid or dumb and says to our 1 yr. old "I hope your not as dumb as your daddy is."

how he'll watch me get up in the AM and work all day and still have the nerve to say "when's the last time you did ___________" whatever it is. or "this house is a mess."

which btw...our house isn't a mess. An hour, MAX would take care of all the extra stuff on most days. If he contributed that hour the house would be damned spotless. I manage to get a lot done. He never notices that.

 

[murphysaangel]

I agree with the PP. At least, whenever I approach my dh this way, he certainly gets defensive and shuts down. Then it ends up in a huge argument b/c he's NOT LISTENING. Although it was me that was trying to force him to hear something he just can't understand. Maybe you could put it another way. Like, "I'm feeling very overwhelmed. I need your help with x, y and z. If we do this together, I think I could get more done and get dinner on the table a few days a week. I love you and I don't want to get frustrated with you, but we definitely need to figure out how to share some responsibilities." Honestly? Otherwise he'll probably read the 1st paragraph and tune out.

Trust me, I know how frustrating it can be to feel like the only adult in a 2-parent family. But I just don't know how he'd take that letter without feeling attacked and then making it worse. It sucks having to outline everything you need done. I have to do it all the time. DH will see that I'm frustrated and overwhelmed (after asking for his help) and then say "What can I do?"...dude, FIGURE IT OUT. But I've come to the realization that getting angry and making HIM angry just doesn't work. Be precise and put your foot down, but I don't think you need to do it with a lengthy letter of that magnitude.

 

[chirp]

i've never written him a letter before. he's ALWAYS heard it nicely. the other day i asked him to please change the babies diaper and get his clothes on. we were headed out somewhere and i was packing our bags. he was walking around the house looking at the things i was packing. an hour later the baby still had a poopy diaper and no clothes on. he still hadn't even packed his own clothes.

or even taken them out so i could pack them.

i'm tired of asking nicely and doing it myself anyway. it sucks.

i sent the letter. as it was.

 

[Kirsten]

I can hear your frustration. It has been an unfair load for you up til now. I was a SAHM for ten years, and I remember feeling this way to a smaller extent.

I do think the letter was more vent than necessary, but maybe that will be an effective motivator - who knows?

Let us know how he responds.

 

[Mama Phoebe]

My first post here in PaP. Chirp, I thought your letter sounded thoughtful, intelligent, coherent and honest. I could hear layers of patience and anger in it, and I think your dh will hear even more than I as an outside reader could.

About a year ago I heard something that I've been trying to integrate into my writing/talking about interpersonal issues. I find it really difficult, especially when I'm expressing anger, frustration etc. It is the idea that words such as "like, that, etc" are NOT feelings, and therefore don't belong in a sentence after the words "I feel..." so when I talk to dh or other close family with whom I may have conflicts, I try to challenge myself to say "I feel _____________ when I see/when you/when this happens..." etc and try to name the feeling - like you did at the end of your letter. Otherwise I wind up more saying "I feel like you don't help with the laundry at all". Which, really, isn't so much a feeling right? More accurately, "I feel hurt and taken for granted when you don't help with the laundry at all". It makes me more vulnerable which is difficult, but it seems to help a little bit with the honesty factor in these conversations. Good luck OP!

 

[vickjul]

No advice, Mama. But from the sound of your letter, I have to wonder if my husband has a long lost twin. We're trying to get ready for an int'l move. The movers will be here this Friday. And hubby can't be bothered to watch his child for more than a couple of minutes at a time for me to pack. I hand her off. He plays with her until she interferes with his computer game. Then he puts her down on the floor to crawl off and find mama (and get in the middle of whatever I'm frantically trying to get done w/o the "help" of little hands).

 

[LionTigerBear]

OP, I had to write a similar letter to my DH this weekend. Now, in my case, my DH is normally a great guy, but lately he's been working too much, possibly because things at home can be chaotic and stressful with the newborn and our two crazy boys (2 and 4). Our marriage has always been pretty good, but ever since the new baby arrived, this has been a source of misery for me (him being gone ALL the time, that is). I understand he's trying to further his earning power for our family etc etc, but it still leaves me doing pretty much everything, and I have a newborn, 2yo, and 4yo. I try and try but I just can't.

I had texted him while he was in his class (he's taking a college course) saying I had some stuff planned for the rest of the day (errands and stuff) telling him I wanted to go do errands as a family or else I could go and he could stay home with the kids. (He does the same thing usually where he runs all the errands and leaves me at home with the kids All. The. Time.

He called me back when he was on break and got mad saying he had wanted to go workout at the gym and do something fun by himself and he could just run the errands real quick himself (he NEVER does them quickly, it usually takes really long and he stops and does this and that other thing while he's out and gets sidetracked chatting with people, etc.)

: I tried to reason it out with him nicely and calmly and he got all defensive and hung up on me.

:

:

: Oh, and the other source of contention is that he's started working out for his health (which is good) but it's like almost every day, and I don't get to work out at all, and I barely get do stuff by MY self hardly ever. (Only once a month so far-- oh wait, I had to take the baby with me. Never mind.)

So, I wrote out two very angry letters to him-- similar to what you've written-- and then deleted them,

but it was good to get that out of my system. The thing is, I know he's a good guy, basically, he's just kind of living on "automatic" because he's so busy/stressed right now. so he's not going to hear my problems unless I tell him very clearly. So I tried to stick to the basics and tell them in as non-accusatory way as possible, while expressing the gravity of the situation. So I wrote something short and simple like this:

"The way our marriage and life is right now is not working for me. I am stressed, exhausted, and right now I feel very hurt. I am afraid to talk to you about it because you get angry. I am trying to fix things before it destroys our family in some way. But I need more of your time and compassion. It is frustrating to me when you are so absorbed in your own pursuits-- as valid as they are-- that you don't realize how desperate things are for me-- and for us. Please help me-- not just in the ways you think are convenient, but in the ways I need help. I love you and I need your love and your help. I feel like I'm drowning."

It's not perfect but apparently it worked because after I sent it, he called me and apologized very nicely, not just saying he was sorry but working to make it right again, which is really the key. He was really really helpful over the weekend. He then said he would do certain chores for me every morning before he goes to work, and this morning he did, and it made the morning so much better and easier! We also worked it out so I get to go away by myself twice a week to do yoga.

I hope you can come up with a letter that works for you.

 

[chirp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vickjul No advice, Mama. But from the sound of your letter, I have to wonder if my husband has a long lost twin. We're trying to get ready for an int'l move. The movers will be here this Friday. And hubby can't be bothered to watch his child for more than a couple of minutes at a time for me to pack. I hand her off. He plays with her until she interferes with his computer game. Then he puts her down on the floor to crawl off and find mama (and get in the middle of whatever I'm frantically trying to get done w/o the "help" of little hands).

we moved into our house 2 months ago. except for on moving day when he helped friends with the big furniture i packed, moved and unpacked every.last.piece of our non-furniture belongings. that entire week i was completely disgusted by him. i just kept unpacking expecting him to join me (i had the baby on my back) like a big, dummy fool. that's what i felt like when i realized i had done it all myself.

when i tried to ask him nicely to come with me to the apartment or watch the baby while i went to get more stuff i got an attitude. one night he stayed with the baby while i cleaned the then vacant apartment (since i told him i couldn't clean the floors or vigorously with the baby on my back). When I came back they were both miserable and HE yelled at ME for being gone so long. I said that he could've come with me to make it easier on him to be watching the baby...and he said that he wanted to play video games. I asked him if he got to play while I was gone at all and he said no. I asked him if that is what he was really mad about AND HE SAID YES. So I was out there busting my rump to get us moved and out of our apartment and he's upset because he has to spend a couple of hours with his son, in our new home, not playing video games.

 

[MamaRuga]

I think putting your feelings and needs into a letter is a really good way to go, especially if it is hard to express your anger otherwise. Recently I came across something I call the "sandwich" method (because I can't remember what it was actually called) that I think really helps someone hear criticism more easily. The basic idea is to "sandwich" the stuff that is going to be hard to hear between two positives. That seems to make it much easier for the listener to not get defensive and shut down to what you are saying right from the beginning. I'm not always good at doing it myself, especially when I am really upset. But I just thought I'd mention it since starting the letter off and closing it with something that you admire or appreciate about DH might make him more motivated to listen to what you are saying. And you really deserve to be heard.

 

[chirp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LionTigerBear OP, I had to write a similar letter to my DH this weekend. Now, in my case, my DH is normally a great guy, but lately he's been working too much, possibly because things at home can be chaotic and stressful with the newborn and our two crazy boys (2 and 4). Our marriage has always been pretty good, but ever since the new baby arrived, this has been a source of misery for me (him being gone ALL the time, that is). I understand he's trying to further his earning power for our family etc etc, but it still leaves me doing pretty much everything, and I have a newborn, 2yo, and 4yo. I try and try but I just can't. I had texted him while he was in his class (he's taking a college course) saying I had some stuff planned for the rest of the day (errands and stuff) telling him I wanted to go do errands as a family or else I could go and he could stay home with the kids. (He does the same thing usually where he runs all the errands and leaves me at home with the kids All. The. Time. He called me back when he was on break and got mad saying he had wanted to go workout at the gym and do something fun by himself and he could just run the errands real quick himself (he NEVER does them quickly, it usually takes really long and he stops and does this and that other thing while he's out and gets sidetracked chatting with people, etc.) : I tried to reason it out with him nicely and calmly and he got all defensive and hung up on me. : : : Oh, and the other source of contention is that he's started working out for his health (which is good) but it's like almost every day, and I don't get to work out at all, and I barely get do stuff by MY self hardly ever. (Only once a month so far-- oh wait, I had to take the baby with me. Never mind.) So, I wrote out two very angry letters to him-- similar to what you've written-- and then deleted them, but it was good to get that out of my system. The thing is, I know he's a good guy, basically, he's just kind of living on "automatic" because he's so busy/stressed right now. so he's not going to hear my problems unless I tell him very clearly. So I tried to stick to the basics and tell them in as non-accusatory way as possible, while expressing the gravity of the situation. So I wrote something short and simple like this: "The way our marriage and life is right now is not working for me. I am stressed, exhausted, and right now I feel very hurt. I am afraid to talk to you about it because you get angry. I am trying to fix things before it destroys our family in some way. But I need more of your time and compassion. It is frustrating to me when you are so absorbed in your own pursuits-- as valid as they are-- that you don't realize how desperate things are for me-- and for us. Please help me-- not just in the ways you think are convenient, but in the ways I need help. I love you and I need your love and your help. I feel like I'm drowning." It's not perfect but apparently it worked because after I sent it, he called me and apologized very nicely, not just saying he was sorry but working to make it right again, which is really the key. He was really really helpful over the weekend. He then said he would do certain chores for me every morning before he goes to work, and this morning he did, and it made the morning so much better and easier! We also worked it out so I get to go away by myself twice a week to do yoga. I hope you can come up with a letter that works for you.

that's how i feel too.