[pianojazzgirl]

So from my understanding a "cytokine storm" is a hyper-inflammatory response by the body to a virus. I've read that list that's going around online of supplements to avoid (supplements that could augment such a reaction) and it's brought up 2 questions in my mind.

First of all, besides just avoiding certain supplements, what can we do to limit or reverse an inflammatory response in the body? I know that the Bromeline (sp?) in pineapple is a natural anti-inflammatory (for example). And what about NSAIDs like Advil? Would it make sense to take these or other anti-inflammatories in the case of suspected cytokine storm. Or just as a preventative for someone who's come down with novel H1N1?

My other question is about one of the supplements on the "avoid" list: elderberry extract. I've heard such conflicting things about this supplement in particular. Mainly that it's been shown to be a highly effective anti-viral, better than Tamiflu in fighting influenza, and that the benefits of taking it outweigh the possible risks of cytokine storm. Anyone care to share their thoughts on this?

 

[nataliachick7]

There is a list of things to avoid on this page in relation to bird flu, but it looks like its true for swine flu as well. It mentinos elderberry and explains why. Just scroll to bottom:
http://www.the-health-gazette.com/he...ral-antivirals

Here is one specific to swine flu:

http://sites.google.com/site/natural...cytokine-storm

I also came across and article someone posted about advil and ibprofen actually being really bad for flu. I am going to see if i can find it.

 

[nataliachick7]

Found it:

http://newfluwiki2.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3500

 

[nataliachick7]

And another good one:

http://blogs.healthfreedomalliance.o...-flu-pandemic/

 

[SandyMom]

Quote:

First of all, besides just avoiding certain supplements, what can we do to limit or reverse an inflammatory response in the body?

It sounds like Vitamin D and Curcumin are specifically good for this:

"Thus, vitamin D appears to both enhance the local capacity of the epithelium to produce endogenous antibiotics and at the same time dampen certain destructive arms of the immune response, especially those responsible for the signs and symptoms of acute inflammation, such as the cytokine storms operative when influenza kills quickly."

"Decreases the production of the cytokine TNF-a. This is the yellow compound in turmeric spice. Research shows that this may be very good for preventing a cytokine storm although this is not proven. Traditional dosage is 500mg to 4000mg daily."

Emphasis mine.

Probably all the things on the "Good Guys" list.

http://sites.google.com/site/natural...cytokine-storm

 

[sbgrace]

On another board I saw a research based list that included aspirin (for adults) to reduce cytokines. I will use other things. I'm avoiding elderberry. There are other options to help with it that don't have a risk of increase in the most dangerous part. Most of us aren't going to be dealing with a serious cytokine storm anyway. Why increase that risk?

Vitamin D is clearly key. Green tea and vitamin C are likely helpful as well (and some other things might be too...probably on the lists above/I've not looked at them).

 

[Koalamom]

but doesn't vit c work like elberberry on the immune system?

 

[highlandmum]

subbing...

 

[FrannieP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluebirdmama1 but doesn't vit c work like elberberry on the immune system?

I think the difference may be that vit c may reduce the production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6, which would inhibit a cytokine storm I think.

Quote:

Vitamin C - Boosts the immune system and is an antiviral by blocking the enzyme neuraminadase. Viruses need neuraminadase to reproduce. There are anecdotal stories of people taking large amounts of Vitamin C (children ½) surviving the Spanish Flu. Research shows that it may reduce the production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6.

http://sites.google.com/site/natural...cytokine-storm

sbgrace:

Quote:

Vitamin D is clearly key. Green tea and vitamin C are likely helpful as well

Yes, I think you're right. Adequate Vit D is looking like a big factor - and green tea. Also Tulsi tea (Holy Basil) I guess. I've never had the tea - it's does anyone know a good source for it?
Tulsi For Swine Flu

 

[pianojazzgirl]

Thanks everyone for chiming in.

Part of my confusion about elderberry is articles like this one (I've seen others but this is the one I was able to find right now): http://www.facebook.com/note.php?not...4784945&ref=mf

Thoughts?

And another question. Why is it that we know that cytokine storms were the big problem with the Spanish Influenza and H5N1, but are just speculating that it might be an issue with novel H1N1. Why hasn't there been a definitive answer? Not enough data? How do they measure/know when it is in fact a cytokine storm that's happening? Have they actually witness cytokine storms as a result of novel H1N1 or is it just guesswork that this could be a factor since an unusual number of "young, healthy" people are falling gravely ill?

nataliachick7 - thanks so much for posting that article about NSAIDs!

Right now my plan of attack for this fall/flu season is to supplement the family with Vit C, Vit D in the form of FCLO, probiotics and maybe Tulsi tea. I had been thinking of New Chapter Immunity Take Care which is a high-quality elderberry extract product, but now I'm thinking probably not.

 

[pianojazzgirl]

I just stumbled across this elderberry info:

Extensive research show that elder stop the production of hormone-like cytokines that direct a class of white blood cells known as neutrophils to cause inflammation, especially in influenza and arthritis. On the other hand, elder increases the production non-inflammatory infection-fighting cytokines as much as 10 fold

Link: http://sites.google.com/site/herbindex/elder-berry

What do you make of that? Reduces inflammation, while increasing non-inflammatory cytokines? Interesting.

 

[es1967]

Thanks everyone for chiming in.

Part of my confusion about elderberry is articles like this one (I've seen others but this is the one I was able to find right now): http://www.facebook.com/note.php?not...4784945&ref=mf

QUOTE]
I just read the above link. Its really confusing -to use it or not. Your second link talks about it "preventing" flu well so I wonder if maybe the way to go it to use it for prevention and then if you happen to get the flu to treat it w the other suggested remedies-Vit C, garlic etc. I do trust Gabriel Cousin's opinion so it really makes me wonder.

 

[mom61508]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrannieP I think the difference may be that vit c may reduce the production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6, which would inhibit a cytokine storm I think. http://sites.google.com/site/natural...cytokine-storm sbgrace: Yes, I think you're right. Adequate Vit D is looking like a big factor - and green tea. Also Tulsi tea (Holy Basil) I guess. I've never had the tea - it's does anyone know a good source for it? Tulsi For Swine Flu

tulsi tea
mercola.com
or
teeccino.com

 

[dessismama]

The research is contradictory. No one really has studied exactly what elderberry does but together with vitamin D and currcumin it should be OK for the swine flu. I am definitely using it as a preventative.

 

[Koalamom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SandyMom It sounds like Vitamin D and Curcumin are specifically good for this: "Thus, vitamin D appears to both enhance the local capacity of the epithelium to produce endogenous antibiotics and at the same time dampen certain destructive arms of the immune response, especially those responsible for the signs and symptoms of acute inflammation, such as the cytokine storms operative when influenza kills quickly." "Decreases the production of the cytokine TNF-a. This is the yellow compound in turmeric spice. Research shows that this may be very good for preventing a cytokine storm although this is not proven. Traditional dosage is 500mg to 4000mg daily." Emphasis mine. Probably all the things on the "Good Guys" list. http://sites.google.com/site/natural...cytokine-storm

Whoah! I just now read the whole list, and here are the "bad guys"
What are all those good foods doing on there? I thought that I would just have to avoid elderberry and echinacea, but I use spirulina, kimchee, honey daily. Do I just skip those altoether? I am so confused.

Quote:

The Bad Guys (Remember, we're just talking about cytokine storms here - these herbs are generally very good for immune systems!) Elderberry Juice (Sambucal) - AVOID - Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. This substance is very effective against the common flu but may not be desirable for the H1N1 virus. Increases in these cytokines may trigger a lethal cytokine storm. (Isr Med Journal2002 Nov;4:944-6) Micro Algae (Chlorella and Spirulina) - AVOID - Increases production of cytokine TNF-a. (Pubmed PMID 11731916) Honey - AVOID - Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. (Pubmed PMID12824009) Chocolate - AVOID - Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. (Pubmed PMID 12885154, PMID 10917928) Echinacea - AVOID - Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. Although it is often used for normal flu, research shows that it may increase the chance of cytokine storms for H1N1. (Pubmed PMID 15556647, 9568541) Kimchee - AVOID - Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. (Pubmed PMID15630182) Coiloidal Silver - AVOID - While silver will likely work to kill the swine flu virus, in many healthy individuals it is likely to elicit a severe cytokine storm reaction.