Mothering Forum banner

dealing with the harsh reality, thoughts?

1501 Views 40 Replies 22 Participants Last post by  yaM yaM
my friend wrote this in an email to me today,

you are struggling through a harsh reality of life.
and you have the tools and wisdom of what to do. i
encourage you to chant, reach out where you are, and
build your skills and confidence. YOU CAN DO IT!

have you chanted about polishing your attitude to be
more compatible with dh's ways? If he needs
space, why not let him have it?

If you'd like family counselling, why not set up an
appointment when he can go?

bottom line: the only one we can change is ourselves.

We all have our idiosyncracies......in some species of
animal (bears for example) the mother must protect the
offspring from the father or he will destroy
them....not that dh is a 'bear" but perhaps in
your home if you keep rayna from irritating
dh...just a thought....

A friend of mine, Mike, was a sociolgoy major in
college. He was reflecting on male energies and
programming. In a recent coverstion he stated stated,
"men have been the warriors and clan leaderes
for generations. They hunted and fought off
intruders and fought for territory and when one wanted
a woman, he grabbed one by the hair, dragged her off
in a cave, and 'made her his own.' When people say,
'men aren't patient and loving enough," they aren't
aware of the male psychie."

Truly, it is only in recent times we encourage men to
be more lving and kind....communicate their
feelings...this was not the case in past generations.

That's food for thought. Before you trade in your
present husband, I encourge you to chant about
adapting yourself to the one you have (change your
karma). that way you won't create the same scene
again with someone else.

i hope you see the wisdom in what i'm writing.


Ive been thinking about posting here many times about the frustrations of marriage, instead I keep reading the posts other mamas leave, it looks like many mamas are dealing with the "harsh reality", would love your thoughts on what my friend has said...also, a support thread/tribe for mamas working thru marriage issues could be helpful??

many blessings~~
See less See more
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
I'm going to print that off and stick it on my fridge, I think that is one of the most helpful and interesting things I have read for a while.

Thank you


P.S. is it ok if I stick it on my fridge?
See less See more
Hmmm, I must disagree. I think it is a list of poor excuses for someone's bad behavior.

I think it is unfair and disrespectful to label men this way. There is no excuse for being rude, impatient, whatever. I don't know you or your husband's full story, but it is absolutely NOT your responsibility to "keep your dd from irritating your husband". It is a parent's responsibility to either not get irritated or find ways to constructively deal with his/her own irritation.

Just my opinion - please don't take this the wrong way. As I said I know nothing of your particular situation but those words jumped out at me as hurtful and plain wrong.
Quote:
would love your thoughts on what my friend has said
I kind of take issue with parts of that...

I completely agree that you are the only one you can change. Completely. I think that though, in changing yourself, you should always be trying to better yourself... changing yourself to adapt to someone else so they don't get mad or annoyed or so that you can keep peace is not really change in my opinion -- it is walking in eggshells...
Yes, if you have issues (for instance) that prevent you from being the best person you can be, thus it adversely affects your marriage, by all means, that is something you can and should change... but it sounded like your friend was urging you to just kind of keep the peace at all costs...

The other thing I took issue with is, why in the hell should you have to protect your own child from "annoying" your partner? I'm sorry, children are sometimes annoying. They are sometimes whiney, or demanding, or need extra attention or whatever else "irritates" your partner... welcome to having kids buddy. I'm sorry, that comment just rubbed me the wrong way.

I was a Sociology major and I am WELL aware of the distinct differences between males and females -- perhaps an antro major could offer more imput as well... however, I don't think it just gives men wanton privledge to act as they may and claim the whole "I am man" defense as they bang their chests like apes...or blame society either... I know men and women are socialized differently-- men are often taught to not feel, to not share their feelings etc... but you get to a certain age (or should) where there is some personal accountability here...or there should be...

I am not trying to be negative, really. I think that there were some good points in the message--- the part about counseling was good... I think it can be very effective if both parties are willing... if not, I believe even counseling for you would be good for you... Also, I agree about not just jumping the gun and leaving or whatever if you feel it is salvagable...

Again, I don't believe you can change anyone but yourself, but please know the difference between changing and bettering yourself and just compromising your happiness and life so you don't dare anger or challenge or step on anyone's toes... and your child should NOT have to change who she is so she won't irritate your partner either... yes, you want to protect her and you should, but man, that comment rubbed me the wrong way!!!

Anyway, I think the message was okay, but I would caution in taking it as gospel... this person doesn't have all the answers either...
See less See more
Okay, counseling and focusing on what you can change aside, I think that e-mail has a distinct tone of absolving men of unacceptable behavior in the name of being men. Or something like that. I mean - I believe in going to great length to salvage a marriage, even in the face of adversity. But not abuse. Or someone not mutually committed to also making the relationship workable. Sociology Mike sounds like a moron when he spouts ridicuous theory as some sort of truth to justify anti-social behavior, when one might as easily assert that human men have evolved as innately sensitive and tuned in to the needs of others as the human ability and desire to live cooperatively is what has ensured our species success and survival. I mean, really, it's all just nonsense devoted to justifying a certain status quo. And mama bears whose young may come to harm from a male bear? Don't keep their cubs anywhere freakin near them. I don't even know where she was going with that - men don't need to be good fathers because bears aren't? Well, ya know penguin mamas leave the rough stuff to their papas, and I'll remember to use that as my justification when I fly the coop, hmm?
Okay, so I guess my point is whatever reasonable points may be tucked in there are entirely clouded to me by outrage at the other nonsense. I don't consider it appropriate to excuse someone else's unacceptable behavior on the basis of their gender, all apologies to weak sociological theory masquerading as real science. Well, and a few apologies for being harsh too, lol.
See less See more
Thank you for sharing that thought provoking email. I
it!

Yes....I would like to be a part of a tribe with other moms that are working through marital issues.
See less See more
I agree with your friends e-mail.

Granted you don't need to protect your dd from your dh but if you don't like the way he deal with it then you need to change how she deals with him. Does that make sense.

Men are who they are for better or for worse and not who we ish they were. and if we don't like the way they are we need not try to change them (that is disrespectful, presumptuous - who says they are wrong and we are right and hurtful to relationships) but instead base how we act around and toward them on what we know will make everyone happier.

So often here I hear women complaining that dh snaped at thier child or scolded thier child. and how dare dh think there needs to be more rules and discipline and higher expectations. Wel if you aren't going to let your dh parent the children the way he sees fit it is your responsibility to make sure the childrens misbehavior and irritating side effects of lack of self control don't push your dh buttons. Atfer all you (general you) would be pissed if he did anythign to change the way they acted. So if you aren't going to let him parent his way keep him from the reminders that your way doesn't get the results he knows/thinks his way can. I feel like I am talking in circles so I will stop.

with my marriage hitting an all time low I realized I couldn't change my dh, nor should I try, but I could change me and the ways I grate on his nerves. Which in turn effects how he responds to me and the girls. If you can push someones buttons in all the bad ways you can [ush thier buttons in all the good ways. I don't know if I would call mans condition nature but it was definitely nurtured into him by my bossiness, controlingness and nagging. I don't know, I didn't feel like I was being bossy or manipulative, but perhaps nature puts it into men to resist those things and they blow them out of proportion. At anyrate if I want to do something my way and I know it is contrary to his way it is my job to make sure it doesn't interfere on his peace. does that make sense. If I tell him this is the way it will be done and the bad is just something you have to deal with he will be cranky because of the way it infringes on his peace (when he thinks his way would be more peaceful and less work and all that) and yet he has no say in doing it differently. you know you would be cranky about that if the roles were reversed but so often that is what I se here.

So I think your friends advice is dead on. there is a whole book about how changing your attitude and actions can change your marriage. Divorce Remedy by Michelle something. Highly recommend it. many of the principles she talks about can be applied to gentle parenting too.
See less See more
Quote:

Originally Posted by captain crunchy
I kind of take issue with parts of that...

I completely agree that you are the only one you can change. Completely. I think that though, in changing yourself, you should always be trying to better yourself... changing yourself to adapt to someone else so they don't get mad or annoyed or so that you can keep peace is not really change in my opinion -- it is walking in eggshells...
Yes, if you have issues (for instance) that prevent you from being the best person you can be, thus it adversely affects your marriage, by all means, that is something you can and should change... but it sounded like your friend was urging you to just kind of keep the peace at all costs...

The other thing I took issue with is, why in the hell should you have to protect your own child from "annoying" your partner? I'm sorry, children are sometimes annoying. They are sometimes whiney, or demanding, or need extra attention or whatever else "irritates" your partner... welcome to having kids buddy. I'm sorry, that comment just rubbed me the wrong way.

I was a Sociology major and I am WELL aware of the distinct differences between males and females -- perhaps an antro major could offer more imput as well... however, I don't think it just gives men wanton privledge to act as they may and claim the whole "I am man" defense as they bang their chests like apes...or blame society either... I know men and women are socialized differently-- men are often taught to not feel, to not share their feelings etc... but you get to a certain age (or should) where there is some personal accountability here...or there should be...

I am not trying to be negative, really. I think that there were some good points in the message--- the part about counseling was good... I think it can be very effective if both parties are willing... if not, I believe even counseling for you would be good for you... Also, I agree about not just jumping the gun and leaving or whatever if you feel it is salvagable...

Again, I don't believe you can change anyone but yourself, but please know the difference between changing and bettering yourself and just compromising your happiness and life so you don't dare anger or challenge or step on anyone's toes... and your child should NOT have to change who she is so she won't irritate your partner either... yes, you want to protect her and you should, but man, that comment rubbed me the wrong way!!!

Anyway, I think the message was okay, but I would caution in taking it as gospel... this person doesn't have all the answers either...

I find I once again am giving
to a great post from Captain Crunchy!
See less See more
I do agree that only you can change you, that's it. Mainly b/c I don't believe one should ever marry someone to change them or take a job thinking you can change your job responsibilties, etc., etc.

However, I do believe I see a lot of something I'd occasionally hear from guys I thought about dating. They'd admit they were asses and thus believed by acknowledging it and telling you about it, they could be an ass to you. The grab their hair and drag them off to the cave thing just made me roll my eyes. It's been at least a couple of thousand years since that was the norm. A little longer than that I'd guess as well. Unless you're talking about invading armies raping and pillaging.

Marriage is about compromise for both people. If you look at yourself and see you aren't meeting your dh halfway, then yes the e-mail has some good advice. If you look at yourself and see that you are meeting dh at halfway or more, then the e-mail begins to sound curiously like what people who are abused say. If I just keep the kids quiet he won't get mad. If I were just a better person he'd treat me better. That's the danger with this. It also reminds me a lot of the "submissive wife" stuff. Which if I practiced would have left me an unmarried woman since my dh loves me b/c I am independent and not kowtowing to him.
See less See more
I would LOVE to see a thread for people working on marriages. Me, I feel I've seriously just about accomodated all I can and I'm not being met halfway. Even one of my best friends who knows both of us says that yeah, it's time for *him* to meet *me*, I've done 99% of the accomodating and if he doesn't want to do that then it needs to be over. What's impressive about that? This is my friend who spent months telling me I'd better try to work it out because that's the father of my baby and I'm not going to find anybody else who will be good for BOTH of us, she knows, she tried.

I'm not really one to post my whole life story on the internet for anybody to see but I think it would help me to know I'm not alone....and maybe that I'm not insane (like most everyone other than a couple of my friends seem to think) for sometimes thinking my baby and I would be better off alone, sometimes it seems like the only thing being married ever got me other than a gorgeous baby is a bunch of stress and drama that I do NOT need. I *thought* I was getting *away* from all that. Did anyone else find out after a couple of months you married a stranger?
See less See more
I started a self/marriage enlightenment support thread, please join


(I be back later to catch up on this thread...)

blessings~~
See less See more
2
lisa72~ feel free to put it on your fridge


I found my friends email helpful, to an extent...I agree with all the posters, there are different ways of taking what she said...I have realized during my friendship with her to learn what I can and let the rest go.

thanks for giving me your perspectives on this, it helps!


anyone interested please join us in the support thread!

blessings~
See less See more
Can I just say that I really thought that was a joke when I first read it? My dh is a man in all the manly ways. He is a law enforcement officer, a hunter, and a protector. But the people he protects above all others are his family!! That is what all that warrior stuff was about, protecting your own, in a biological sense, protecting your own genes, aka your children and mate!! I don't know what is going on with your dh and I didn't have the patience to read all the thread, but I have never had to protect my dc from my dh and I would be horrified if I ever felt I had to. I know there are distinct differences between men and woman, I have 3 boys, but I never would use that as an excuse for allowing my boys to grow up thinking that it was acceptable to treat woman and their children with anything less than respect and love. Exactly the way my dh treats us! I am so appalled by women thinking that bad behavior is to be expected and condoned because men will be men! I know there was a lot more of it then that, but that part really got under my skin! Sorry, I had to vent about that. The part about counciling and only able to change yourself sounded good though!
See less See more
2
My favorite line was where the "sociologist" brought up cavemen grabbing their womenfolk by the hair when they wanted a little action. Not only is that the most ridiculous thing I've read concerning the modern relationship of women and men, it is entirely *unproven*. It's called pre-history for a reason. We can speculate all we want about primitive social mores, but that doesn't make them true. Sounds like more justification for patriarchal subjugation of women. IOW evolutionary psychology is a load of horsesh*t.

When will society STOP coddling men? When will women? Maybe when we stop fearing them.


Regarding men and women being so very very different? Eh. I've not seen much evidence of this, other than highly socialized behaviors. All people are different and all people are the same. Anger, jealously, sorrow, joy, pain, loneliness, irritation, fear, compassion, patience, practicality, literal-mindedness, being detail-oriented, lazy, etc., these are human attributes, not just the provision of one sex or the other. I see the full spectrum in almost everybody. For every "manly" man, who is stereotypically masculine, there is a man who is more "stereotypically feminine. Who is more of a man? Who the hell cares?

Sorry for the rant. Truely. But letting men get away with sh*tty behavior just because they're men drives me batty.
See less See more
Quote:

Originally Posted by mcsarahb
Hmmm, I must disagree. I think it is a list of poor excuses for someone's bad behavior.

I think it is unfair and disrespectful to label men this way. There is no excuse for being rude, impatient, whatever. I don't know you or your husband's full story, but it is absolutely NOT your responsibility to "keep your dd from irritating your husband". It is a parent's responsibility to either not get irritated or find ways to constructively deal with his/her own irritation.

Just my opinion - please don't take this the wrong way. As I said I know nothing of your particular situation but those words jumped out at me as hurtful and plain wrong.
:
See less See more
Just curious. . . .

Anyone here read the Continuum Concept?

How do you think Jean Liedloff's portrayal of the Yequena tribespeople (or any indigenous culture's gender differences) compares to 'civilized' men and women?

Or more specifically, why would the basic nature of civilized men be expected to be different from the basic nature of indigenous peoples' men?
Quote:

Originally Posted by suzywanII
My favorite line was where the "sociologist" brought up cavemen grabbing their womenfolk by the hair when they wanted a little action. Not only is that the most ridiculous thing I've read concerning the modern relationship of women and men, it is entirely *unproven*. It's called pre-history for a reason. We can speculate all we want about primitive social mores, but that doesn't make them true. Sounds like more justification for patriarchal subjugation of women. IOW evolutionary psychology is a load of horsesh*t.
I've always found this stuff to be a little...off. I'm not well-educated in sociology, anthropology, etc. But, it seems to me that if it were the norm for men to "grab women by their hair", etc., the race wouldn't have done very well. That kind of behaviour tends to be accompanied by beatings, etc. - and pregnant women don't thrive in that kind of atmosphere. Children growing up in that kind of environment tend to have major emotional problems...and can also have physical problems if mom was beaten badly enough while pregnant. This is one of those things that seems to be accepted as "the way things were", with little evidence...and I don't think it makes a lot of sense.
See less See more
5
Quote:

Originally Posted by suzywanII
My favorite line was where the "sociologist" brought up cavemen grabbing their womenfolk by the hair when they wanted a little action. Not only is that the most ridiculous thing I've read concerning the modern relationship of women and men, it is entirely *unproven*. It's called pre-history for a reason. We can speculate all we want about primitive social mores, but that doesn't make them true. Sounds like more justification for patriarchal subjugation of women. IOW evolutionary psychology is a load of horsesh*t.

When will society STOP coddling men? When will women? Maybe when we stop fearing them.


Regarding men and women being so very very different? Eh. I've not seen much evidence of this, other than highly socialized behaviors. All people are different and all people are the same. Anger, jealously, sorrow, joy, pain, loneliness, irritation, fear, compassion, patience, practicality, literal-mindedness, being detail-oriented, lazy, etc., these are human attributes, not just the provision of one sex or the other. I see the full spectrum in almost everybody. For every "manly" man, who is stereotypically masculine, there is a man who is more "stereotypically feminine. Who is more of a man? Who the hell cares?

Sorry for the rant. Truely. But letting men get away with sh*tty behavior just because they're men drives me batty.


Thank you! You took the words right out of my mouth! Again, it sounds like someone else saying "woman, you are in the wrong. fix yourself and then your man won't seem so wrong" WTF?

eta: there is an excellent article in a recent issue of Scientific American about differences in male and female brains. It really begins to explain a LOT of things. There truly are differences, and there is no judgement passed on the differences, just a scientific documentation of differences in brain function that might explain some behavioral differences that drive us batty. I was reading this article in the car, and found myself jumping in my seat going "Yes! You see! Right there, this says right here..." to explain to DH some of the bigger disagreements we have. Turns out, it all comes down to brain wiring
See less See more
2
Quote:

Originally Posted by race_kelly
Can I just say that I really thought that was a joke when I first read it? My dh is a man in all the manly ways. He is a law enforcement officer, a hunter, and a protector. But the people he protects above all others are his family!! That is what all that warrior stuff was about, protecting your own, in a biological sense, protecting your own genes, aka your children and mate!! I don't know what is going on with your dh and I didn't have the patience to read all the thread, but I have never had to protect my dc from my dh and I would be horrified if I ever felt I had to. I know there are distinct differences between men and woman, I have 3 boys, but I never would use that as an excuse for allowing my boys to grow up thinking that it was acceptable to treat woman and their children with anything less than respect and love. Exactly the way my dh treats us! I am so appalled by women thinking that bad behavior is to be expected and condoned because men will be men! I know there was a lot more of it then that, but that part really got under my skin! Sorry, I had to vent about that. The part about counciling and only able to change yourself sounded good though!
to answer you comment, my family has just moved back in together (military, moved to a new state) so we are basically starting over and its not easy...my dh gets irritated with dd, he is not used to being around a toddler & is adjusting. What my friend said was helpful to me because while I do hold my dh reasponsible for his actions I can do a lot to help keep the situation more peaceful for him and all of us. You are fortunate to have a dh who "treats you with nothing less than respect and love" (always?) because while my dh strives to do the same, he is struggling & learning thru his "issues"...sometimes I can be less than loving...we are all capable of that...its all a part of human revolution, which is what my friend is talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suzywanII
My favorite line was where the "sociologist" brought up cavemen grabbing their womenfolk by the hair when they wanted a little action. Not only is that the most ridiculous thing I've read concerning the modern relationship of women and men, it is entirely *unproven*. It's called pre-history for a reason. We can speculate all we want about primitive social mores, but that doesn't make them true. Sounds like more justification for patriarchal subjugation of women. IOW evolutionary psychology is a load of horsesh*t.

When will society STOP coddling men? When will women? Maybe when we stop fearing them.

Regarding men and women being so very very different? Eh. I've not seen much evidence of this, other than highly socialized behaviors. All people are different and all people are the same. Anger, jealously, sorrow, joy, pain, loneliness, irritation, fear, compassion, patience, practicality, literal-mindedness, being detail-oriented, lazy, etc., these are human attributes, not just the provision of one sex or the other. I see the full spectrum in almost everybody. For every "manly" man, who is stereotypically masculine, there is a man who is more "stereotypically feminine. Who is more of a man? Who the hell cares?

Sorry for the rant. Truely. But letting men get away with sh*tty behavior just because they're men drives me batty.
I for one DO NOT coddle men! And I do completely agree that men and woman are different...that is why woman are the mothers and men are the fathers/protectors/breadwinners (historically & in my case). Understanding the differences as woman and approaching our men with that in mind makes a big difference in a relationship, something my friend has taught me


My friend is most definetly a freethinker & hardcore about life


blessings~~
See less See more
mystic~mama-
Sorry, I didn't mean to be accusitory.
I was just relating the bear and cub thing to the dh thing. I wasn't really addressing your family, just the stuff Mike the sociologists said. I honestly have to say my dh always treats me and our kids with respect and love, not to say we don't argue. We do, but to be completely honest, he is probably usually more on the high ground than I am . He is exceptional in that way. I think having 3 older sisters has a lot to do with that! They trained him well!

Anyway, I hope that you and your dh can work things out. It must be a very tough experience for you. I know when my dh was away for training at F.L.E.T.C. for 4 months, and I was home with ds1 an d2, 2.5 yrs old and 4 months old when he left, the adjustment was tough to him being gone and then coming home. I had gotten used to doing things my way without having to consult with him, and taking his needs into account. We both adjusted eventually, and talking about it alot really helped. Sorry about my previious rant. It really wasn't at you and your dh!
See less See more
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top