[vaw]

Do you think taking away recess and related arts is a suitable manner of dealing with a child not completing work during class?

If so, at what point would it become unsuitable (ie, frequency)?

My son's teacher is taking away his recess and related arts classes and keeping in the classroom to continue working on his assignments. At first glance, I do not have a problem with this. Until it has become 3-4 recesses a week and 1-2 related arts classses a week.

I don't know about other states, but we have state laws determining how many minutes of physical activity children receive in public schools, and my son is being denied almost all of these minutes (as the main related arts he is not attending is PE and dance).

To add, he is 6 years old in 1st grade, in a public school montessori class (with 1-3rd graders). The teacher is keeping him in the classroom when she feels he didn't complete enough work, or work hard enough.

 

[Porcelain Interior]

Is he horsing around or not paying attention, or is he having issues finishing his work in the time allotted?

If it's the latter I don't think this is a very fair way to solve the problem.

 

[Linda on the move]

Even if he is horsing around, it isn't a solution. He is a 6 year old, he needs to move around. He deserves a balanced education and most of the extra classes are madated. Perhaps her expectations are unreasonable or some of the work should be sent home.

 

[Linda on the move]

Even if he is horsing around, it isn't a solution. He is a 6 year old, he needs to move around. He deserves a balanced education and most of the extra classes are madated. Perhaps her expectations are unreasonable or some of the work should be sent home.

 

[Sasharna]

This is a very traditional intervention, so I'm not surprised to hear of it. However, I don't think it's effective.

Would it be possible to suggest an alternative consequence to the teacher? If it were my child, I would emphasize that I am very supportive of the teacher's desire that he behave in class, but I'm concerned that taking away his time for physical activity may worsen the problem.

Also, I'm not sure from your post whether or not there are some learning delays/differences at play here? If this is an issue of learning style or disability rather than an issue of discipline, it's a whole 'nother story.

 

[vaw]

My understanding is that he is not playing/disrupting class. The main issue seems to be slowness in completing work, and lack of interest in the work.

We have a handful of different 'things' going on.

he has sleep apnea that is not resolved with the CPAP machine
he has been diagnosed as gifted with learning disabilities (that the school does not recognize, due to him working on grade level) the diagnoses are disorder of written communication, CAPD, and a motor coordination disability (can't remember the name right now)

Also, this is his first year in montessori, so he is still learning the concept.
The teacher says he should be finishing 6-7 activities each day, he is finishing around 2 each day (could be 0-4, depending)

I am interested in helping him learn to complete activities as needed, but the lack of related arts and recess is not helping him do so.

 

[eepster]

Since this is a "Montessori" school I woould x-post in the Montessori subforum.

Is she making him stay in class, or is she simply allowing him to complete works which he is in the middle of? If the students are invited to go out to recess and/or arts then a student might be allowed to continue works they are doing. Say for example, the teacher rings the bell and says it's time for dance but your DS is in the middle of the pink tower, he might ask to stay and finish, this is a wonderful thing. He may prefer not to particioate in physical activities if his apnea makes him tired, or his motor issues make them difficult.

However, I would be very concerned if your DS wants to go to recess and the teacher is telling him he must stay in to complete the pink tower. That really seems to go against the M philosophy. It also can lead to your DS disliking school, not having opportunities to excercise, etc.

Have you had the opportunity to ask the teacher what is going on?

 

[joensally]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vaw My understanding is that he is not playing/disrupting class. The main issue seems to be slowness in completing work, and lack of interest in the work. We have a handful of different 'things' going on. he has sleep apnea that is not resolved with the CPAP machine he has been diagnosed as gifted with learning disabilities (that the school does not recognize, due to him working on grade level) the diagnoses are disorder of written communication, CAPD, and a motor coordination disability (can't remember the name right now) Also, this is his first year in montessori, so he is still learning the concept. The teacher says he should be finishing 6-7 activities each day, he is finishing around 2 each day (could be 0-4, depending) I am interested in helping him learn to complete activities as needed, but the lack of related arts and recess is not helping him do so.

Some teachers.

He needs accomodations. As it's public school, go to your school district's website and look up their policies re special ed, along with the state's/province's. At-grade level achievement should not be the sole basis of decision making. Your son is multiply complex, and this means that a whole host of things are affecting every day activities (possibly seemingly unrelated, but affecting him none the less).

If he has hand issues, along with coordination, many of the montessori works may be challenging for him. So, he may cognitively get it but not have the planning/coordination skills to do them in a "timely" manner.

I think kids need to see success. So, it could look like "you're sure working hard at that, let's go for recess now," rather than "as you haven't completed this, you'll have to stay in for recess to complete it."

I have a multiply complex, gifted 6 year old boy. Public montessori would have been a disaster for him (based on how the public montessori we looked at interpreted and applied Maria Montessori's philosophy and blended it with the public system's requirements).

 

[MattBronsil]

Not only is this completely and totally against common sense, but it's completely and totally against the Montessori Philosophy.

eepster brought up a great point, but it sounds more like you're certain this is the case as it is (especially since you already talked to the teacher).

I would have, and bring up with the administration, serious issues with requiring children to do x and y and claiming to be Montessori.

 

[vaw]

There are several things this teacher is doing that in my opinion is non-montessori. As for action -

I called the principal last week and asked his opinion on the importance of recess and related arts (to feel him out before I complained) and he referenced the state law on minimum minutes of physical activity in the conversation.

The principal is going to speak to the teacher and help her re-evaluate the best way to help my son complete work during uninterupted work time. I am suppose to receive a return call from him today to let me know what the outcome is.

I think the best thing will be pulling him out of Montessori, but I hesitate to do that. He could learn so much IF he was completing activites.

The school recommended him to move to Montessori to help him work as his academic level, not just at grade level (for example, he is reading at a 4th grade level and math is 2nd grade). But at this point he isn't learning much at all (other than what he learns from evesdropping on the teacher introducing activites to the 3rd graders)

The big holdup, as far as I can tell, is the writing portion. The teacher is having them document each activity after its completed. And he has trouble writing down his thoughts, so he will stare at the paper forever.
If he does Addition strip board 10 problems, he then write down the question and results.
If he does comprehension cards, he has to write a sentence with every word on the card (9 sentences), saying what you do with each thing.
If he does pink box 7, he needs to write a sentence with each object (5 sentences).

I don't know if the writing is 'montessori' or the public school incorporating more writing to meet state standards. (most likely a combination of both)

I requested a meeting at the begining of the year to discuss accommedations and he was denied them. They referenced RtI as the reason, that he has to perform below grade level, before he can be considered special ed.
They recognized the writing disorder, from a motor skill view. Said he cannot have OT or PT unless was receiving other services, but suggested a pencil grip. They aren't recognizing the side of the disorder that isn't motor skill, but the thought process of how to put your thought onto paper.

When discussing with the teacher any possible accommedations, she states that 'that isn't the montessori way, and he needs to complete all activities exactly as laid out" Which doesn't quite seem 'Montessori' to me.

I have asked for him to have more isolated area to sit, she has refused - he complains that the kids interupt his focus (the class is so small, each time someone needs an activity, a child will have to move to get to the shelves, or for the child to walk from their mat to the shelves)

 

[vaw]

eepster - yes, she is making him return to the classroom to continue working.

And, he isn't the only one - from what my son is telling me, there are 3-5 kids (out of 24) that are missing their recesses repeatedly. Less are missing their related arts, and less often, but again, he is not the only one being held out.

To me, no child should be kept from the activities repeatly.

 

[mommy68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linda on the move Even if he is horsing around, it isn't a solution. He is a 6 year old, he needs to move around. He deserves a balanced education and most of the extra classes are madated. Perhaps her expectations are unreasonable or some of the work should be sent home.

I agree.

Last year my kids were in a private school and had attended that school for almost two years. In the higher grade levels they would make a child sit out of recess and sit on a bench or the ground and complete their work while outdoors with the other children. That way when they got finished they could participate.

If your child's teacher feels she "must" push the child to finish the work during recess I would suggest that she at least let your child go with the class outside and work on it outside in the fresh air and sunlight.

I don't really agree with making children do this in the first place but your child shouldn't be denied the opportunity to go outside.

I'd also ask if the teacher could send this work home when he is unable to finish in class so he can finish it for homework. That seems like a better solution to me. My DD was in kindergarten last year and her teacher did that a lot.

 

[eepster]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vaw The school recommended him to move to Montessori to help him work as his academic level, not just at grade level (for example, he is reading at a 4th grade level and math is 2nd grade). But at this point he isn't learning much at all (other than what he learns from evesdropping on the teacher introducing activites to the 3rd graders)

Observing is a valid way to learn. Is she letting him do 3rd grade works he's ready for? M schools are supposed to let students work at their own level.

Quote:

The big holdup, as far as I can tell, is the writing portion. The teacher is having them document each activity after its completed. And he has trouble writing down his thoughts, so he will stare at the paper forever.

As a dyslexic person I can tell you that would pretty much mean I would never do any works, including ones in my favorite subjects like math and science.

Quote:

I have asked for him to have more isolated area to sit, she has refused - he complains that the kids interupt his focus (the class is so small, each time someone needs an activity, a child will have to move to get to the shelves, or for the child to walk from their mat to the shelves)

This sounds very unMontessori, not interupting other students work is pretty much the first thing students learn in a M class.

 

[Justmee]

Haven't read all the responses...

When I was teaching we were not allowed to take away and special classes (Music / Art / Gym/ Library / Computer). Kids missed recess if they didn't do their work or didn't do their homework or some other situations (as discipline) at the descrtion of the teacher. I worked with one 3rd grade teacher who assigned so much seat work by the 2nd week of school some kids were so far behind they never caught up and didn't get recess the whole year

:

: )

 

[MattBronsil]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vaw I called the principal last week and asked his opinion on the importance of recess and related arts (to feel him out before I complained) and he referenced the state law on minimum minutes of physical activity in the conversation. The principal is going to speak to the teacher and help her re-evaluate the best way to help my son complete work during uninterupted work time. I am suppose to receive a return call from him today to let me know what the outcome is.

Let us know how that phone call goes.

Quote:

I think the best thing will be pulling him out of Montessori, but I hesitate to do that. He could learn so much IF he was completing activites.

There's a terrible assumption that he's not learning. You said he's watching older children's lessons. You mentioned a key point in the problem - the writing issue. You can learn a lot without writing it...especially in Montessori.

Quote:

The school recommended him to move to Montessori to help him work as his academic level, not just at grade level (for example, he is reading at a 4th grade level and math is 2nd grade). But at this point he isn't learning much at all (other than what he learns from evesdropping on the teacher introducing activites to the 3rd graders)

I'd be careful with that statement. It is a belief in Montessori that the child is learning in the environment somehow. We, as teachers, need to observe and see what that learning is and better know how to help the child.

Quote:

The big holdup, as far as I can tell, is the writing portion. The teacher is having them document each activity after its completed. And he has trouble writing down his thoughts, so he will stare at the paper forever. If he does Addition strip board 10 problems, he then write down the question and results. If he does comprehension cards, he has to write a sentence with every word on the card (9 sentences), saying what you do with each thing. If he does pink box 7, he needs to write a sentence with each object (5 sentences).

Yikes. I can see how many of the students will benefit from this, but a child with special needs should not be required to do that at all.

Quote:

I don't know if the writing is 'montessori' or the public school incorporating more writing to meet state standards. (most likely a combination of both)

Children write a lot more in Montessori elementary than they do in 3-6, but it's also stuff the children are interested in and it is appropriate to the child.

People always ask what the biggest difference is between Montessori and traditional education. I have started to say the same thing I feel is the biggest difference. In traditional education, a lot of time is spent getting the child to adapt to the environment. No matter what the child is like, the environment stays the same and usually does not change at all (a really good teacher, in my opinion, is one that can change the environment). In Montessori, the key is to see what the children's needs are and change the environment to suit those needs.

Quote:

They recognized the writing disorder, from a motor skill view. Said he cannot have OT or PT unless was receiving other services, but suggested a pencil grip. They aren't recognizing the side of the disorder that isn't motor skill, but the thought process of how to put your thought onto paper.

Is it possible it could be a combination of both and both people don't see what the other person sees? I would ask what, specifically, they have seen and how often they write it down in their notes that makes them think it's a motor skill problem. I'm not saying it's not the learning disorder either, but if we only focus on one of the two and they're both a problem, we might be taking steps backwards in the long run.

Quote:

When discussing with the teacher any possible accommedations, she states that 'that isn't the montessori way, and he needs to complete all activities exactly as laid out" Which doesn't quite seem 'Montessori' to me.

Would you like me to dig up some quotes that show how un-Montessori that is? One of my favorite quotes is in my albums (copied and pasted from one of them):

The child must not be expected to use the materials in an identical way to the teacher's demonstration. "This is contrary to the spirit of Montessori teaching, which is to allow children to experiment on their own and to take clues from teaching practice from children's experiences."
(Nancy M. Rambusch, "The Calypso Paradigm", The Constructive Triangle, American Montessori Society, summer 1978)

Quote:

I have asked for him to have more isolated area to sit, she has refused

That's what my mom did in the 3-6 classroom at Xavier University's Lab School years ago. She says she had a student that had trouble focusing so she made a desk with a barrier on both sides as you sit down. The child became one of the hardest workers.

Again...see what the needs of the child are and adapt the environment. It is the KEY to Montessori.

Quote:

- he complains that the kids interupt his focus (the class is so small, each time someone needs an activity, a child will have to move to get to the shelves, or for the child to walk from their mat to the shelves)

They might be stuck with terrible room size problems.

I would want to know what solutions they ARE working on to help your child.

 

[vaw]

Matt and eepster, I am sorry my comments made is would like I don't think he is learning. I do recognize that he is learning from watching the older children be introduced or complete their work. My concern is none of that 'counts' to the teacher in relation to his work plan. And if he was exceling at his activities, he would be able to get to activities that are teaching him new concepts. So he would be learning more than he is from observing.

Learning that 5 sentences makes a paragraph and wanting to write all his journal responses and reading responses in paragraphs doesn't count for his work plan, his 9 weeks goal (when he sits and watches many of the class get certificates for meeting their goals). Its doesn't get him recess or related arts. It doesn't help his report card.

In fact it hurts him - because writing and thinking through a full paragraph takes a good 30 mins for him. So he has less time to do his orther work. The assistant even told me that Alex makes his sentences too complex for his activities.
His sentence for say the word cat might be, The crazy orange cat attacked my feet from under the bed. The assistant was suggesting to him write shorted simpler sentences, like The cat is big.

I guess I am not concerned whether he will learn - he LOVES to learn. We were at the library until 8 last night so he could get books about spiders, he wants to know what the largest spider is, the poisionous ones, what country are they in, where do they live etc. There is always something new he wants to learn about.

BUT, I again, that doesn't help him enjoy going to school, get recess and related arts, and feel successful at school

 

[vaw]

Matt, if you have any additional quotes that you think apply, please let me know. It looks like I might need them.

The principal did not call yesterday, but emailed today saying after talking to the teacher that he thinks it will be better if we (teacher, principal and I) meet to talk.

Not sure what way this meeting will be going!

 

[straighthaircurly]

I know a lot of schools do it but I do not think it is appropriate. Recess is an important part of the day for children from a social and physical perspective. To take it away for an issue that is not directly related to behavior at recess is ridiculous and short sighted IMO. My son's school does not allow that. Kids work at different speeds and the teacher has other times in the day when kids can finish up work if they work slower than others.

Are other kids being held out of recess too? I woud gather more information about what is happening during class.

 

[SunshineJ]

I don't think it is ever ok to keep a child from recess for not completing their work. Before you go to the meeting, do a search on "importance of recess" or something similar and in addition to the good information available on how M works, you'll have a lot of ammo on how detrimental withholding recess is to a child. Good luck and let us know how it goes!

K.