DH is worried DD is just coasting along . . .

I think most people hit a point where things no longer come together easily and they have to work at it. I think that's a good thing. It might come in elementary, high school, college (or in my DH's case grad school ).
I don't believe in artificially trying to hit that point. If your DD is doing stuff she likes and challenging herself- all is good.

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Yes, I agree - I see no reason why children would feel much reason to "work" at learning. Learning is a pretty natural thing - you show her some things, she tries them on her own, she "gets" it, and she gets the answers right - that seems like just a smooth way of learning, or maybe she's simply demonstrating what she already knew. There's no reason for her to have to be always "challenged" and reaching for a carrot at the end of a stick. And a child who just turned 7 is not usually someone who's inwardly motivated to work at learning - a 7 year old is usually someone who is most strongly driven by nature's built in stimulation to play and imagine and explore, and to learn lots of things in the process - and to ask questions and move right on to the next thing after getting answers. She may seem "big" compared to the little ones, but 7 is till very young.

And this stage of math just may not be particularly interesting to her - it may not be one of those things that she "loves" to learn. You might try looking at a broader range of possibilities for things she'll love learning about - her interests may not be all that close to the core school subjects at all, but may lead in good time to all that's important for her to eventually learn. But really, I think play and imagination are probably going to be her main loves for a while to come - which is perfectly natural. A love of learning doesn't necessarily mean that anyone, a child or otherwise, is going to work in a scholarly or focused fashion toward the goal of learning a particular subject. A love of learning can mean just keeping one's imagination open and active to taking in and think about a whole host of things that lead to more curiosity and learning down the line. A love of learning doesn't need to mean a love of study - study is often something that's a better fit with a much older child.

- Lillian

Some more thoughts - here's a fun article, "A Few Words About Unschooling Math" - and here's another good one, "From Boring to Board Games: Math Really Can Be Fun!"

I realize you started a program to offer her the opportunity to think in terms of solving problems for herself, but there's an awful lot she can easily and happily be learning about math without having to set about learning how to do arithmetic right now. Her mind, her way of thinking, might just differ from yours in this way - you may think more in terms of wanting to be in control of your learning process and going about setting up challenges and mastering things, whereas she may just be looser in the way her mind moves around, which can work out just as well in the long run. There's a wonderful book called The Open Mind: Exploring the 6 Patterns of Natural Intelligence, by Dawna Markova, that goes into all the different ways people think and therefore behave - it's not so much about "learning styles" but about "thinking" and "being" styles, and it's very enlightening in dealing with family members who don't think as much alike as they all assume they do. My husband was stunned when he read it - he said he's always thought he knew a lot about the way people think, but it really surprised him to realize that the reason I do things so differently from him is that I literally think very differently. Although the differences in the way you look at things might just be as simple as the fact that your daughter happens to be only 7. Lillian

I know that it hasn't been all that long since you started HS'ing -- do you think she needs more deschooling time? I remember reading something somewhere about a high school boy that was brought home to HS and he spent months just staring out the window day in and day out. One day, he was motivated and started "learning" again.

Some other random thoughts -- I believe that your dd is artistic, right? Have you thought about creating a little private area where she can have a little studio? There is healing and rejuevenation in the artistic process. With almost every type of work, ds likes to draw what he has learned or when he's in the middle of pondering something. I've found it helpful to also have an area where he can display his work. He creates and revisits.

Here is a book that I started, but haven't finished. I think there are some good ideas about helping your dd find what she is passionate about:

http://www.amazon.com/Your-Childs-St...0406056&sr=8-1

The book really focuses on dialog that allows the child to discover what *they* think their strengths are, not necessarily what others believe their strengths are . It's been a good read for me so far.

Every six months or so, I start to worry that dd1 might be coasting along. It starts to seem that she is reading the same type of books, playing the same kinds of games, and not stretching or exploring anything new. I start to wonder why a kid who can read and understand anything is reading every Geronimo Stilton book ever written. (Granted, it takes her an average of 12 minutes to read one, but still...)

I've even seen her approach math the same way as Miz's daughter. She will come up with a question and just want the answer. She'll listen to my quick explanation, take the answer, and off she goes.

Just when I start to think that maybe she's stuck and needs to be pushed into something new, dd1 lets me see just how much she has learned. Somehow, I will overhear her helping dd2 figure out some math problem that she asked me for just the answer to a month before. She'll suddenly be talking about how blood functions as a connective tissue and hold forth on the importance of correct comma usage. Day to day, it doesn't look like a lot, but she is constantly learning.

I think that, because she directs her own learning, she doesn't hit walls very often. It's true that she might be (and probably is) capable of more advanced work than she does. She's very smart with a near-eidetic memory. Thing is, she hates to be pushed. It's easy to look at her and see only potential, she has a lot of it.

As time goes on, I'm getting a little better at trusting the process. The amount of information she accumulates in her day to day life is staggering. She is also only seven years old. Just coasting seems to be very productive. Instead of standing still, dd is charting her own convoluted path.

Is she artistic?

There are lots of cool things you can do with art and math!

Patterning, symettry, tesselations....oh my. Check out www.mathcats.com for more ideas - it rocks.

I use fractions, non-standard measurement and angles all the time when I draw. Eyes are half way up the head, eyes are spaced 1 eye width apart(non-standard measurement). An average males is 1/7 head - that sort of thing.

As per coasting -um, if you think she is - she probably is. I don't think it is anything that needs fixing necessarily - we all coast from time to time and go on learning spurts.

It is possible, of course, that the reason she is coast is because the way you are going about things needs tweeking. However, even within a method that works well there are spurts and lulls.

Kathy

theretohere: I agree that most people hit "The Wall" eventually, too. When DD was in school and her teacher was advocating a grade skip, the teacher she said her brother was not challenged, coasted until college, then suddenly did know what to do when something wasn't easy . . .and dropped out. SO, that's the kind of thing we are worried about!

Lillian: I agree that learning should be natural- and I think your "carrot at the end of the stick" analogy is so true. The fact that she isn't interested in learning math in a systematic/structured way has made ANY isolated math (even with games) seem artificial (and she can see right through that). This is the only "academic" area that she doesn't seem to be enthralled with, so maybe that is why it seems more pressing to me. Oh, and of course, I project my OWN struggles with math onto my worries about her (though she does not seem to have my issues). I will read the articles and get that book-- looks very interesting! And yes, she DEFINITELY likes to play and is always using her imagination. She is the only 7 yo I know who routinely continues to roleplay.

Bird Girl: How does your DD react to doing math regularly? Practicing piano is very different for DD than math . . .SHE chose the piano, she enjoys it, she knows she has to practice if she wants to have lessons, she is going to perform in a recital soon and is excited about that, etc. In other words, it has deep meaning for her, so the motivation is intrinsic.

LauraLoo: I keep wondering if we are still in the deschooling period or not. But, since I can remember, DD has always been like this-- always wanted to be in exact charge of her learning. I ordered a KG Singapore book for my 4 yo DD, and she loved it, begged for more workbook pages. (I wanted to stop before she did.) SO different. And yes, she is very creative. As I type, she is busy creating a family of mice out of paper. She regularly makes her own toys and wants to start a business. (Which I've encouraged-- and yes, there'd be the math needed-- but the stick-to-it factor isn't there yet.) I love the idea of a private studio for her. The only room right now available is our creepy basement, but maybe we could fix it up . . . I will check out that book!

TEAK's Mom: Hahahaha!!!! My DD LOVES those Geronimo Stilton books, too. When are you moving to the Midwest? VEry interesing point, that because she directs her own learning, she doesn't hit the wall. My DD, too, hates to be pushed. But, like you said, there is so much she already knows, so-- why? I've looked at the standards for 1st grade (which she would be in in school) and she's met them all. She is probably done with the 2nd grade standards, and most for 3rd, too (I haven't checked the 4th) . . .so WHY should I push more? That's the part I am conflicted about.

kathymuggle; I've shown her the mathcats site before. She didn't like it. She does NOT like anything organized or structured. If I told her "how" to draw a face, she would push me away and question why her way is wrong. I enrolled her in an art class, and she did not like it AT ALL. We were at a museum today where there were stencils to use, and when offered her one, she said, "You know I don't like stencils!" No, I didn't but of course it makes sense . . . But anyway, I don't really know if she is coasting. What ways do you challenge your children and how do they respond? ETA: I just looked more at the mathcats site . . .I only showed her the online stuff, but now I see the craft section-- she may like that!

A few more things . . .
(1) She got involved with karate and is determined to get a black belt. This is only her 2nd session so she may run out of steam, but I think it's good to see that she DOES want to push herself, at least in that area . . .she has a goal.
(2) If we can scrounge for the $, I want to get her IQ tested. Then I will better know her specific areas of strengths and weaknesses-- and won't have to wonder if she resists because something is just too hard (she isn't the kind of person to admit it).
(3) DH and I have wondered about ADD/ADHD, but only because when WE want to show her something she tunes out, gets goofy, etc. When it's something she wants to do, like finish a book or learn from her piano teacher, she is very focused. I don't know enough about ADD/ADHD to know if we should be looking into this more.

Thanks so much, everyone!!!

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This is my feeling. I think DH imagines that "other children" would just do as we say and we are doing something wrong, or something is wrong with DD, or both. But, sometimes it seems we are doing something that interests her (that she has chosen) and she still gets distracted . . .that's when I get worried.

As for daily math, yes, I see your point. I guess my big concern is that DD already says she doesn't like math, so it might do more harm than good at this point to do it right now. She doesn't mind my little questions about math anymore-- esp. when they are things that come up in something we are reading. So, maybe it is progress. About a year ago she wouldn't even let me read out loud to her (preferring to read with me silently and the compete to see who read the pages faster , so I am noticing a nice change. Slow, but I guess there is improvement.

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It's not at all uncommon for children, especially ones as young as your daughter, to have an interest in something that they're not actually drawn to putting a lot of focused pursuit into learning or mastering - just like adults, only more so. My husband used to worry about that kind of thing with our son, because he had a very different sort of temperament and was always a lot more driven - but he eventually realized that different people simply have different natures when it comes to that sort of thing.

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I think that concern is valid and important. And I can think of homeschooling friends with a fanatically strong personal interest and background in math who have spent an awful lot of time online and in person urging parents not to force it but to instead just let it be an ongoing part of their lives - because forcing tends to be counterproductive and tends to isolate the study of math from the real thing. It's usually people who have struggled with math, as you mentioned you have, who worry that they should be forcing it on their children. Here's a short piece on Games and Math, and this Joyful Math blog - both pages by one of the people I'm referring to.

Here's something I've copied from an older post I wrote:
Math doesn't need to be drilled and killed. In fact, when my son was around 9 or 10, his dad insisted that I take him to get tested, because he was nervous about the fact that we didn't follow a formal study program for it, so I took him to a math tutoring center. The owner of the business was the one who was going to test and interview him, and I was to come back in an hour. I was nervous about it, thinking she'd probably express strong disapproval about his not knowing some of the "math facts." To the contrary, when I came back, she was almost giddy with excitement about his understanding of "real math" and his lack of fear of math or distaste for it. She said she spends most of her time with students in just trying to undo all the negativity about math that's been drilled and killed into them. She said we had no need of her services - to just keep doing whatever we'd been doing, which wasn't much outside of some playing around with little math activities. And she told him to just learn multiplication facts for making algebra later.

Later, in his teens, he intermittently played some math computer games, and when he was ready to apply to four year colleges, he got a tutor to help him fill in the things he'd found he was missing from taking the SAT sample test from a book. He scored well on the SAT, and never had a problem with math in college. If he'd been applying to a college that had specific requirements for high school math courses taken, he would have taken those at the local community college or gone through whatever studies he needed at home (maybe by way of correspondence or online courses), but the small liberal arts colleges he applied to were perfectly happy with the way he'd done it. I realize he's just one example of someone doing well without having been drilled through a math program, but I know of others who've done similarly. Discovering that math can feel good is the most important element of "the basics."

Lillian

I dunno...I think of math as just one of those things you do...as just one way to think. Like music, it is possible to cram all the math you need into a few months...but I think it's best to work with it every day, getting a little better as you go, a little every day. We do the best when we present things as a fait accompli...you eat your veggies, you brush your teeth, you practice, and you do math every day. No need to fuss or fight, just accept that this is your lot in life and you do it. There's plenty of books and ideas to argue over later...

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This is something I have been pondering lately-- DO you really need to do math daily? I think I've written about this example before, but it made me think. DH wanted to know where DD "was" in math, so I gave her some problems. She struggled with some. Too hard. It wasn't that she was distracted/not trying, but she couldn't get them. (This was a computation issue.) A month later, after NO math instruction, she easily did these problems. She was mentally ready, so she could do them.

The Singapore book seems like it is just SO MUCH repetition. This is one of my biggest problems with school-- if you do things and get 100% and you have to do them over and over again, what are you learning? To me, it's mostly just documentation, proof to the teacher, school board, etc. that you understand x, as well as something to keep you busy. To me, music and math aren't exactly the same-- the reason you have to practice and practice something in music is because it is partly a physical skill and you have to train your muscles. I think with math, if you get it, you get it. If you understand a concept, see a pattern, then you don't need drill and kill. On the other hand, I disagree with you strongly that music is something that is possible to cram.

Anyway, if we use the Singapore book, I think we are going to do a minimal amount of problems and skip a lot. Instead I think I am going to do something like read The Number Devil with her-- she seems to enjoy math problems a lot more when they are in literature.

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Could she do the Life of Fred math? it's literature based/

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We stayed away from math for about 4 months when I was trying to figure out why Singapore wasn't working for ds (I still don't know - I thought it was good, but he said he didn't like it). When we started Miquon, things started to click. Could have been timing - he was ready? Could have been the switch to Miquon? I'm not really sure, but I would guess it was a little of both, but mostly I think it was timing. Ds has never really been an incremental learner - it's always by leaps and he doesn't regress or forget. I think if I pushed daily math on him, we'd have big problems. And really, if there's a struggle to learn, what's the point? It's been better for us to back off and wait, or figure out a different approach if that's the problem. I believe that in the time that nothing seems to be going on, it's the opposite -- quite a bit is going on. I believe that he uses the lull times to apply his newly learned knowledge elsewhere, which is why all of a sudden I see these huge leaps in abilities and knowledge in seemingly unrelated areas.

I know that I don't have the tenured viewpoint that Lillian has, but I wanted to share what we're experiencing right now.

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Isn't it the darndest thing? I've heard this so often that I'm realizing it's just part of the nature of the territory. I don't really understand how a lot of this stuff works, but it just does. - Lillian

I guess I would say that some aspects of music are develomental, or that they happen when they happen. Developing a vibrato seems to work this way. But some things need to be practiced a bit at a time; learning to read music, shifting into different positions, learning arpeggios and scales. And sometimes, practicing those boring scales and arpeggios opens up other insights with other repertoire, or adds a different dimension when listening to more enjoyable music. Without the everyday work of doing the scales, those insights wouldn't have happened.

Likewise, my daughter has made certain comments when she's working on her math that indicate the higher-level thinking occurs to her when she's banging out computation. She's understanding more and more how the numbers relate to each other; what place value really means, and how different computation patterns work across more than one area. I find that Singapore always emphasizes the conceptual understanding, so when they have a whole page of addition or subtraction, say, I'm willing to assign it to her and let her go to it. She's getting so fast that she can really focus on other areas of thinking. I know these things will serve her well when she gets into more abstract work.

As far as "so much repetition," I'm not sure what you mean. It's a mastery-based curriculum, so once the ideas in the chapter are mastered, the next time they appear, they have a new concept riding along. We haven't dealt with any chapters that were exactly like the ones that came before. We go pretty quickly--we work through the workbook, and only check the textbook when a new idea pops up. We always do the textbook orally, and only write answers down in the workbook. Aside from a few pages of addition and subtraction drill, I haven't had to push her to finish any chapters. She's finished 1A, 1B, Challenging Word Problems 1, 2A and is now in 2B, and we started in August. So it can go as quickly as your DD is ready.