DH wants to read studies/books that are anit-HB

mdnaturalmama · Dec 10, 2010

So I talked with DH some more tonight, and asked him what exactly he's looking for to read, etc. He said he'd really like something that's either anti-HB or really in the middle. He feels like TBOBB and alot of the books I'm reading and recommending are all pro-HB and that he's only going to get the "good" side of HBing. I tried to tell him that in the book I'm reading now the author says she's never come across any studies, etc that have shown that HBing is worse than a hosp birth. In fact, they say just the opposite. But, he feels like he needs something that's almost anit-HB so that he can read it, watch it and then weigh the info. Any suggestions? =)

labortrials · Dec 11, 2010

I think your DH needs a good old fashioned whoopin'. =(
 
Make sure he understands the gender bias present in medicine and that medical approach has been the dominant "voice" for years and years. All of his fear stems from his own perceptions of and experiences with the medical industry. He doesn't need to read anything that confirms what he already believes about birth. He needs to read things that will open up his mind and soul. I still think that he should read Wagner's book if he needs to read something from a doctor.
 
He has been socialized to believe that birth is dangerous, that birth cannot be trusted, and that birth belongs in the hospital. 
 
Good luck, and keep talkin'!

lynsage · Dec 11, 2010

You know what, I'm sorry to be harsh but at this point you need to tell this man that it's your body, your birth, and your decision, and he can do his own research and then get on board or put a sock in it. Asking you to come up with anti-HB materials for him to review when we live in an anti-HB culture where the belief that HB is dangerous and crazy is the norm is just ridiculous. If he wants to scare the crap out of himself looking for bad information, that can be HIS job, not yours.
 
TBOBB even shows an attempted HB that ends in a hospital transfer with an emergency C-section, for pete's sake.

macandcheese · Dec 11, 2010

Oh, good lord. This is because he's just soooooo pro-home birth now, right? He's probably just looking for some good ACOG propaganda to balance out his radical anti-OB views. <img alt="ROTFLMAO.gif" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/ROTFLMAO.gif">

mdnaturalmama · Dec 11, 2010

He actually isn't fully against HB. He just wants to make sure he has a fair and balanced look at things. I explained to him that the books that are "pro HB" are really telling the truth. He equates it to getting news from different sources so as to try and make sure you're not biased. I too asked him why he'd want to read stuff that would just wind up making him more against it but....sigh. I think it's an exercise in futility.

macandcheese · Dec 11, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by mdnaturalmama <a href="/community/forum/thread/1284806/dh-wants-to-read-studies-books-that-are-anit-hb#post_16108628"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> He actually isn't fully against HB. He just wants to make sure he has a fair and balanced look at things. I explained to him that the books that are "pro HB" are really telling the truth. He equates it to getting news from different sources so as to try and make sure you're not biased. I too asked him why he'd want to read stuff that would just wind up making him more against it but....sigh. I think it's an exercise in futility.
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I forget from your other threads whether you have this one already, but maybe Simkins' Birth Partner book would be good? It focuses on a lot of natural pain relief/coping methods, but it has information about home and hospital birth. I've only skimmed it so far (DH is in charge of studying that one), but from what I can tell it doesn't really try to justify one system over the other—just says, sort of, here's what may happen, here's what to be prepared for, here's what to ask for, etc. 
 
Maybe if your DH starts to normalize birth itself in his mind, he'll be more confident in your ability to actually have a safe HB?

tsfairy · Dec 11, 2010

Doesn't Sears' Birth Book look at both home and hospital birth?

Marissamom · Dec 11, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by tsfairy <a href="/community/forum/thread/1284806/dh-wants-to-read-studies-books-that-are-anit-hb#post_16108659"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> Doesn't Sears' Birth Book look at both home and hospital birth?
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 I had to go grab my copy to look. They do talk about how to choose a birth place and about the safety of homebirth, but it's only a few of pages. my favorite part of the book is that they do have an entire chapter on the history of birth and different interventions. There is also the fact that the first chapter is Martha recounting her birth stories, and that chapter comes across as pretty pro homebirth.

kawa kamuri · Dec 11, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by lynsage <a href="/community/forum/thread/1284806/dh-wants-to-read-studies-books-that-are-anit-hb#post_16108458"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> You know what, I'm sorry to be harsh but at this point you need to tell this man that it's your body, your birth, and your decision, and he can do his own research and then get on board or put a sock in it. Asking you to come up with anti-HB materials for him to review when we live in an anti-HB culture where the belief that HB is dangerous and crazy is the norm is just ridiculous. If he wants to scare the crap out of himself looking for bad information, that can be HIS job, not yours.
 
TBOBB even shows an attempted HB that ends in a hospital transfer with an emergency C-section, for pete's sake.
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 <img alt="thumb.gif" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif"> I can't support this enough.

mdnaturalmama · Dec 11, 2010

<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/community/forum/thread/1284806/dh-wants-to-read-studies-books-that-are-anit-hb#post_16108656" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by macandcheese <a href="/community/forum/thread/1284806/dh-wants-to-read-studies-books-that-are-anit-hb#post_16108656"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif"></a> <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by mdnaturalmama <a href="/community/forum/thread/1284806/dh-wants-to-read-studies-books-that-are-anit-hb#post_16108628"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> He actually isn't fully against HB. He just wants to make sure he has a fair and balanced look at things. I explained to him that the books that are "pro HB" are really telling the truth. He equates it to getting news from different sources so as to try and make sure you're not biased. I too asked him why he'd want to read stuff that would just wind up making him more against it but....sigh. I think it's an exercise in futility.
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I forget from your other threads whether you have this one already, but maybe Simkins' Birth Partner book would be good? It focuses on a lot of natural pain relief/coping methods, but it has information about home and hospital birth. I've only skimmed it so far (DH is in charge of studying that one), but from what I can tell it doesn't really try to justify one system over the other—just says, sort of, here's what may happen, here's what to be prepared for, here's what to ask for, etc. 
 
Maybe if your DH starts to normalize birth itself in his mind, he'll be more confident in your ability to actually have a safe HB?
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Thank you. Thats what i was looking for. I have this one coming to me so will be sure to have him read it. <img alt="smile.gif" class="bbcode_smiley" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/smile.gif">

msmiranda · Dec 11, 2010

The Sears Birth Book is actually anti-homebirth, when you finally get to the part where they take a position on it. Their reasoning is that there is not a system in place to facilitate smooth transfers of care (essentially, that because doctors hate midwives and don't want to work with them/listen to them, homebirth is not safe enough in the United States). It doesn't sound like that's the kind of anti-homebirth literature he is looking for though. You could direct him to ACOG's statement on the issue. Also, <a href="http://www.changesurfer.com/Hlth/homebirth.html" target="_blank">this link</a> that I posted before has all the studies, even the flawed ones and ones that would appear anti-homebirth, in it. And <a href="http://www.nashvillemidwife.com/safety.html" target="_blank">this link</a> has the studies broken down between those that show as-good and better outcomes for home birth, and those that show less than optimal outcomes. Of course, without the skills to review the studies and identify their strengths and weaknesses, I'm not sure how helpful that will be for making an informed decision.
 
Here's how I look at the risks of homebirth versus hospital birth: it's a matter of how likely the various outcomes are. So if you have a 1 in 3 chance of a c-section at the hospital, with all the risks that entails (esp for you since you have had a previous section), versus a 1 in 100 chance of rupture at home, you have to weigh those odds in terms of what is more likely to happen. Then you also have to weigh the severity of the consequences of an adverse event. If you did have a rupture at home, what are the potential consequences and how likely is each one to occur? Choice of birth place is all about weighing the odds of various things happening based on your personal values and beliefs about what constitutes a good and bad outcome. Most medically-minded people believe that "alive" is a good outcome, no matter what else occurs. 
 
I hate to say it, but your DH asking for anti-homebirth literature doesn't sound promising in terms of him coming around. His primary goal is probably to keep you and the baby alive, and if there is any higher risk of death at home than in the hospital (even if it is overall very unlikely), then that is going to make his decision for him. There are real risks to multiple sections, but these risks tend to remain invisible, probably because they are rarely fatal (rarely enough, anyway, that there are a million anecdotes out there from women who say their c-sections were a breeze and they'd have one again in a heartbeat) ... whereas, the threat of uterine rupture and possible fetal death sound scarier. Most people in our society don't have a good grasp of statistics and odds and thus they are afraid of things that are statistically unlikely and not afraid of things that are much more likely to happen, all based on emotions. 
 
I don't know where I'm going with this, but I sympathize with your situation. Has your DH talked to your prospective midwife about transport scenarios and what she would do if various things happened during your labor? This type of drilldown of potential scenarios could be reassuring to him, because right now he probably just has an amorphous fear. Keep us posted on how things play out!
 
P.S. None of which is to say that I don't think this is ultimately your decision ... but, in a marriage it generally helps to have some level of agreement on issues like this one.

mylilmonkeys · Dec 11, 2010

Good Birth, Safe Birth is a really well done book that shows the pros and cons of the different birthing options without seeming to take a stand on the 'best' place to birth. It is usually the first book I recommend to mainstream people who have never thought about options before. I would also recommend Henci Goer's books, Obstetric Myths vs. Research Realities, and Thinking Women's Guide to a Better Birth. She does a good job digging up all the relevant research and examining the conclusions in a way that make it obvious that modern medicine doesn't follow research at all. Again, her books do not assume the reader is planning a home birth, but it gives information about that option as well as all the other standard interventions in obstetrics. My last tool in talking with mainstream people is A Guide to Effective Care in Pregnancy and Childbirth. This one is similar in vein to Henci Goer's books, but is written by doctors. It has the additional advantage of being available online for free: <a href="http://www.childbirthconnection.org/article.asp?ClickedLink=194&ck=10218&area=2" target="_blank">http://www.childbirthconnection.org/article.asp?ClickedLink=194&ck=10218&area=2</a> This one, though, is focused entirely on hospital birth and doesn't say anything about home birth as far as I'm aware. It just examines all the many practices of hospital based obstetrics and points out through the research what is good medicine and what are bad traditions or CYA procedures which leave mom and baby at risk for further intervention, morbidity or worse. Good luck!

nilatti · Dec 11, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by mdnaturalmama <a href="/community/forum/thread/1284806/dh-wants-to-read-studies-books-that-are-anit-hb#post_16108628"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> He actually isn't fully against HB. He just wants to make sure he has a fair and balanced look at things. I explained to him that the books that are "pro HB" are really telling the truth. He equates it to getting news from different sources so as to try and make sure you're not biased. I too asked him why he'd want to read stuff that would just wind up making him more against it but....sigh. I think it's an exercise in futility.
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So, here's your problem. Not your problem. Society's problem. We're all poorly educated about statistics and the scientific method, and then our bipolar media have conditioned us to think that there are always two equally valid sides to every argument. Now, if, for example, The Thinking Woman's Guide had cherry-picked the studies it reviews, only including pro-HB ones, that would be one thing. But Goer is a science journalist, and she looked at practically every study available at that time. She didn't find any that proved HB unsafe, and lots that showed that hospital births have a high probability of intervention.
 
ACOG doesn't like HB for largely monetary reasons. They do NOT have controlled, scientific studies to back up their position. Just look into their footnotes. The few studies they cite as indicating that HB isn't safe included non-attended and unplanned HBs, as well as women who were very high-risk (not VBAC high-risk, they had complications with the current pregnancy, like gestational diabetes). Assuming you're not planning a freebirth, those studies don't apply. Try to find any study that shows that an attended, planned HB for a low-risk pregnancy is less safe than a hospital birth for *someone with the same set of conditions*-- you can't. It's like trying to find a study that proves that drunk driving is safer than sober driving, or that the earth takes 30 hours to turn on its axis rather than 24. Science doesn't have sides. It's not opinion. Science's job is to say: "Here are the facts. Now what are you going to do about it?"

tsfairy · Dec 11, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by msmiranda <a href="/community/forum/thread/1284806/dh-wants-to-read-studies-books-that-are-anit-hb#post_16109145"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> The Sears Birth Book is actually anti-homebirth, when you finally get to the part where they take a position on it. 
Thanks for clarifying. It's been at least 5 years since I read it. I just knew both were mentioned.
 
P.S. None of which is to say that I don't think this is ultimately your decision ... but, in a marriage it generally helps to have some level of agreement on issues like this one.
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Agree. It is your body, but it sure helps to have a supportive partner.

BtotheG · Dec 11, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by nilatti <a href="/community/forum/thread/1284806/dh-wants-to-read-studies-books-that-are-anit-hb#post_16109196"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by mdnaturalmama <a href="/community/forum/thread/1284806/dh-wants-to-read-studies-books-that-are-anit-hb#post_16108628"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> He actually isn't fully against HB. He just wants to make sure he has a fair and balanced look at things. I explained to him that the books that are "pro HB" are really telling the truth. He equates it to getting news from different sources so as to try and make sure you're not biased. I too asked him why he'd want to read stuff that would just wind up making him more against it but....sigh. I think it's an exercise in futility.
</div>
</div>
 

So, here's your problem. Not your problem. Society's problem. We're all poorly educated about statistics and the scientific method, and then our bipolar media have conditioned us to think that there are always two equally valid sides to every argument. Now, if, for example, The Thinking Woman's Guide had cherry-picked the studies it reviews, only including pro-HB ones, that would be one thing. But Goer is a science journalist, and she looked at practically every study available at that time. She didn't find any that proved HB unsafe, and lots that showed that hospital births have a high probability of intervention.
 
ACOG doesn't like HB for largely monetary reasons. They do NOT have controlled, scientific studies to back up their position. Just look into their footnotes. The few studies they cite as indicating that HB isn't safe included non-attended and unplanned HBs, as well as women who were very high-risk (not VBAC high-risk, they had complications with the current pregnancy, like gestational diabetes). Assuming you're not planning a freebirth, those studies don't apply. Try to find any study that shows that an attended, planned HB for a low-risk pregnancy is less safe than a hospital birth for *someone with the same set of conditions*-- you can't. It's like trying to find a study that proves that drunk driving is safer than sober driving, or that the earth takes 30 hours to turn on its axis rather than 24. Science doesn't have sides. It's not opinion. Science's job is to say: "Here are the facts. Now what are you going to do about it?"
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This. Completely.
 
Your DH might benefit from an explanation of the term "bias." Bias is making up your mind before you have any facts or evidence. It does *not* mean reaching a conclusion after careful review of the facts. So, for instance, the ACOG is biased against homebirth because it takes business away from them. They do not have any facts or evidence to support their view, and they routinely dismiss or ignore the facts or evidence that show homebirth is safe. That is bias.
 
Henci Goer, though she comes to the conclusion that homebirth is safe and beneficial, is *not* biased. She came to her conclusion through careful analysis of the available facts and evidence. Just because all available data overwhelmingly support one conclusion over another, it does not make it a bias. Taking a close look at that data and concluding "yes, homebirth is safe," or "wow, drunk driving is dangerous," or "why, yes, the sun is the center of the solar system, not the earth," does not mean you just formed a bias. It means you are sane and rational.
 
I agree with what Nilatti posted - the media have conditioned us to think that everything is just a matter of opinion, and that there are "sides" to everything. That's not the case with facts. There is what's supported by evidence, and there's...everything else. And I'll reiterate, just because an issue is overwhelmingly supported by facts - that doesn't make it biased.
 
What a weird world where the position that has the most evidence supporting it is the one that becomes most suspect.

macandcheese · Dec 11, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by BtotheG <a href="/community/forum/thread/1284806/dh-wants-to-read-studies-books-that-are-anit-hb#post_16109314"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by nilatti <a href="/community/forum/thread/1284806/dh-wants-to-read-studies-books-that-are-anit-hb#post_16109196"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by mdnaturalmama <a href="/community/forum/thread/1284806/dh-wants-to-read-studies-books-that-are-anit-hb#post_16108628"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> He actually isn't fully against HB. He just wants to make sure he has a fair and balanced look at things. I explained to him that the books that are "pro HB" are really telling the truth. He equates it to getting news from different sources so as to try and make sure you're not biased. I too asked him why he'd want to read stuff that would just wind up making him more against it but....sigh. I think it's an exercise in futility.
</div>
</div>
 

So, here's your problem. Not your problem. Society's problem. We're all poorly educated about statistics and the scientific method, and then our bipolar media have conditioned us to think that there are always two equally valid sides to every argument. Now, if, for example, The Thinking Woman's Guide had cherry-picked the studies it reviews, only including pro-HB ones, that would be one thing. But Goer is a science journalist, and she looked at practically every study available at that time. She didn't find any that proved HB unsafe, and lots that showed that hospital births have a high probability of intervention.
 
ACOG doesn't like HB for largely monetary reasons. They do NOT have controlled, scientific studies to back up their position. Just look into their footnotes. The few studies they cite as indicating that HB isn't safe included non-attended and unplanned HBs, as well as women who were very high-risk (not VBAC high-risk, they had complications with the current pregnancy, like gestational diabetes). Assuming you're not planning a freebirth, those studies don't apply. Try to find any study that shows that an attended, planned HB for a low-risk pregnancy is less safe than a hospital birth for *someone with the same set of conditions*-- you can't. It's like trying to find a study that proves that drunk driving is safer than sober driving, or that the earth takes 30 hours to turn on its axis rather than 24. Science doesn't have sides. It's not opinion. Science's job is to say: "Here are the facts. Now what are you going to do about it?"
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This. Completely.
 
Your DH might benefit from an explanation of the term "bias." Bias is making up your mind before you have any facts or evidence. It does *not* mean reaching a conclusion after careful review of the facts. So, for instance, the ACOG is biased against homebirth because it takes business away from them. They do not have any facts or evidence to support their view, and they routinely dismiss or ignore the facts or evidence that show homebirth is safe. That is bias.
 
Henci Goer, though she comes to the conclusion that homebirth is safe and beneficial, is *not* biased. She came to her conclusion through careful analysis of the available facts and evidence. Just because all available data overwhelmingly support one conclusion over another, it does not make it a bias. Taking a close look at that data and concluding "yes, homebirth is safe," or "wow, drunk driving is dangerous," or "why, yes, the sun is the center of the solar system, not the earth," does not mean you just formed a bias. It means you are sane and rational.
 
I agree with what Nilatti posted - the media have conditioned us to think that everything is just a matter of opinion, and that there are "sides" to everything. That's not the case with facts. There is what's supported by evidence, and there's...everything else. And I'll reiterate, just because an issue is overwhelmingly supported by facts - that doesn't make it biased.
 
What a weird world where the position that has the most evidence supporting it is the one that becomes most suspect. 

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nilatti and BtotheG, EXACTLY.

Banana731 · Dec 11, 2010

ITA with the PP's here. Your DH needs books that present info, not anti/pro anything. I'd also recommend "Pushed" by Jennifer Block.

IdentityCrisisMama · Dec 12, 2010

I will see what journal articles/studies I can find and link them here. If you're close to a Uni library your DH can go there and access their database that way. 
 
He may want to read this article: 
 
<a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100701072730.htm" target="_blank">http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100701072730.htm</a>
 
There seem to be quite a few articles that imply that there are studies that conclude that there are some aspects to HB that are less safe and/or question the safety of HB. Many will be available at a Uni library. I think these are a perfectly reasonable thing to want to read if you are concerned with the safety of HB. The trick here is to be able to get your hands on the actual study because articles about studies are usually pretty misleading, imo. 
 
Another good option for your DH would be to just pick any book he's already read (even a pro-HB book) and check the sources. 
 
I think I also said in your other post that an actual infant development book may be a good source for you DH. Many will have a birth section with birthing options discussed. These generally come off in a very non-biased tone, imo.

HawaiianBlesing · Dec 12, 2010

The Thinking Woman's Guide to Natural Childbirth Henci Goer
 
 
It looks at all the statistics and gives tons of medical refrences in the back.
 
 
It shows the pros and cons to each thing/procedure/topic

IdentityCrisisMama · Dec 12, 2010

I would try something like this: 
 
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&tag=motheringhud-20&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FInfant-Development-3rd-Charles-Snow%2Fdp%2F0130481440" rel="norewrite" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Infant-Development-3rd-Charles-Snow/dp/0130481440</a>
 
"This book provides a comprehensive cutting-edge overview of infant growth and development—from conception though the first years of life. Interdisciplinary in perspective and topically organized, it features balanced coverage of theory, research, and practical application, as well as a strong emphasis on the interrelationships between various developmental domains and the importance of the “whole” infant. Prenatal Development. The Birth Process and The Newborn. Physical Growth. Health, Safety, and Nutrition. Motor Development. Perceptual Development. Cognitive Development. Language Development. Personality. Social Development. Emotional Development. Infant Caregiving and Education. For anyone involved in infant care." 
 
Or this: 
 
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&tag=motheringhud-20&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FInfancy-Development-Birth-Value-MySearchLab%2Fdp%2F0205702821%2Fref%3Dsr_1_6%3Fs%3Dbooks%26ie%3DUTF8%26qid%3D1292155625%26sr%3D1-6" rel="norewrite" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Infancy-Development-Birth-Value-MySearchLab/dp/0205702821/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1292155625&sr=1-6</a>
 
I know I did keep my text book for many, many years because it was such a great book. If I find it on the bookshelf I'll post here - you are welcome to borrow it. 
 
Also, you DH should still have access to the college (even a city college will have this) database. His school may not have the biggest database but with his library card/student ID he can probably get to at least one public health collection of journal articles. He can also Google things like "Is homebirth safe" and stuff like that. If he wants personal stories about HB safety issues there are a few terribly tragic stories out there that he can read...a couple of brave mamas on MDC too who share their story from time to time. Of course, there are more stories like this of hospital birth but if he feels he needs to view HB from every angle I'm saying that stories and perspectives that are not at all positive are out there.

DH wants to read studies/books that are anit-HB

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