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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
The oral vaccine contains live, weakened virus that prevents the gut of the vaccinated child against all the types of wild poliovirus, thus preventing paralysis. However, in rare cases, the weakened virus is also known to cause paralysis. It is estimated that the vaccine has caused paralysis in around 300 million children who received their first dose of immunization.

In addition, the virus from the oral vaccine is excreted over a period of six to eight weeks The excreted virus replicates in the environment and during the process, sometimes gets genetically mutated. These mutated versions are called circulating vaccine-derived polioviruses, or cVDPV, and can cause paralysis. Under-immunized children are at a great risk of catching the virus circulating in the contaminated water and food. There are three types of cVDPVs identified so far.
Ok... So we've established the oral polio vaccine can actually cause the same issue it is meant to prevent, paralysis, and can create a vaccine-derived circulating outbreak.

So, the solution is .....

WHO, therefore, has stressed on the importance of maintaining high immunization rates within the countries to stop such deadly outbreak of the polio virus.
Right! Focus on the underimmunized and not the vaccine that is actually causing the outbreak.:duh. Another article blames the "anti- vaccine" for low immunization rates and seems to forget that the entire article is about the vaccine causing the outbreak.

http://www.ibtimes.com/disease-outb...derived-poliovirus-cases-ukraine-mali-2094858
 

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ugh! :irked Who - WHO? do you trust???

http://www.theguardian.com/global-d...e-un-world-health-organisation-major-outbreak

“We must absolutely destroy the vaccine, or pass it on to some poorer countries,” said Viktor Serdyuk, president of the council. “Good or bad – it does not matter. We should vaccinate safely and according to the protocol.”
Pass it on???? Does this really happen! :lol


BUT -
The WHO says the vaccines are safe. Dr Dorit Nitzan, head of the organisation’s Ukraine office, said: “The way they’ve been stored is the normal practice. That’s how it’s been done all over the world.

and they are catching on the our ways too! $$$$$$$ MONEY!

“Doctors are getting $100 per month in Ukraine and nurses $50,” she said. “You can’t survive on this. Then a representative of a pharmaceutical company comes to the doctor and says: ‘OK, look, you prescribe this special medicine. You get 5% of the price from every box or tube sold.’ So the country is running out of medicine. We don’t have anything.”
AND this great vaccine - what will happen to it?? Pass it on..............?




Let's remember - it's just like candy! Trick or Treat for.......? anyone???

It's cheaper too - REALLY? That is what we are always told when it comes to "poor" countries, takes "trained" people to give jab (like in NJ!! :D) but.......they DO do jab in 3rd world countries, just NOT for polio - and hey, it's the cheap polio! Cheap to give and given OFTEN....................would this fly in the "western nations"?

Is it safe to administer multiple doses of OPV to children?
Yes, it is safe to administer 4 or more doses of OPV to children. The vaccine is designed to be administered multiple times to ensure full protection. In the tropics where the weather is hot, more than 4 doses of OPV are required for a child to be fully protected – sometimes more than ten are administered without side effects. Each additional dose further strengthens a child’s immunity level against polio.
10!!! So it's cheaper to send someone in multiple times vs an injection? Must be this stuff that they pass onto "poor" people!


http://who.int/immunization_standards/vaccine_quality/qa_production_control_pq_11july2012.pdf
 

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Once cases of wild polio drop enough the country can switch from OPV to IPV which doesn't have this problem. Nigeria is a recent example.

Does make me curious which countries are using OPV. Pakistan and Afghanistan for sure - any others?
 

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2014 -

U.S. clinicians should be aware of possible new vaccination requirements for patients planning travel for >4 weeks to the 10 countries identified by WHO as polio-infected (Figure) (13). Four countries (Cameroon, Equatorial Guinea, Pakistan, and Syria) are now designated as "exporting wild poliovirus." Those countries should "ensure" recent (4–52 weeks before travel) polio boosters among departing residents and long-term travelers (of >4 weeks). An additional six countries (Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Iraq, Israel, Nigeria, and Somalia) are designated as "infected with wild poliovirus." Those countries should "encourage" recent polio vaccination boosters among departing residents and long-term travelers. This list might change when the public health emergency of international concern is reassessed at the end of July, and, for some countries, these measures could extend beyond the 3 months validity of these temporary recommendations.†
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6327a4.htm#fig

The WHO has info as to who uses what and perhaps they will say who gets the crap doses! The poorest of the poor!

OVP is still in use and not just in countries "eradicated".
 

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Ok... So we've established the oral polio vaccine can actually cause the same issue it is meant to prevent, paralysis, and can create a vaccine-derived circulating outbreak.

So, the solution is .....


WHO, therefore, has stressed on the importance of maintaining high immunization rates within the countries to stop such deadly outbreak of the polio virus.
Right! Focus on the underimmunized and not the vaccine that is actually causing the outbreak.:duh. Another article blames the "anti- vaccine" for low immunization rates and seems to forget that the entire article is about the vaccine causing the outbreak.

http://www.ibtimes.com/disease-outb...derived-poliovirus-cases-ukraine-mali-2094858
But the vaccine does not cause outbreaks when there are high immunization rates. Allowing vaccine rates to drop would both allow larger outbreaks of vaccine polio and allow the return of wild polio. I don't see how that would be a preferable solution?

Let's not forget that the primary reason the more dangerous oral polio vaccine is used in areas at high risk of polio instead of the safer IVP is because when high rates of immunization are maintained, the oral vaccine is much more effective at stopping the spread of polio than IPV is.
 

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But the vaccine does not cause outbreaks when there are high immunization rates. Allowing vaccine rates to drop would both allow larger outbreaks of vaccine polio and allow the return of wild polio. I don't see how that would be a preferable solution? - The use of OPV caused it in this case! The Ukraine is being called an "outbreak" too and that too was caused by the vaccine, not wild.

Let's not forget that the primary reason the more dangerous oral polio vaccine is used in areas at high risk of polio instead of the safer IVP is because when high rates of immunization are maintained, the oral vaccine is much more effective at stopping the spread of polio than IPV is.
- The use of OPV caused it in this case!


It's a real false sense of security to think that once a country is declared "eradicated" they use the safe vaccine, they simply do not. Thus why we are now seeing vaccine induced polio!

They are just asking for a perfect storm IMO claiming these 3rd world countries are "polio free"!

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/polio-resurfaces-in-laos/


Laos has been free of the wild polio virus since 1993, but poor immunization rates mean people are at risk of infection with strains of the virus that can mutate in sewage after being excreted by immunized children.

The risk of vaccine-derived polio cases can be avoided by switching from using live oral polio vaccines (OPV) - which are highly effective, cheap, easy to deliver but contain live virus, - to "inactivated" vaccines (IPV), which are not effective for fighting endemic disease but contain no live virus.

The WHO said the use of OPV is being scaled down in a phased manner as countries eliminate circulating wild polio virus strains.
In just Laos they had since 1993 and still haven't phased it in!
 

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- The use of OPV caused it in this case!


It's a real false sense of security to think that once a country is declared "eradicated" they use the safe vaccine, they simply do not. Thus why we are now seeing vaccine induced polio!

They are just asking for a perfect storm IMO claiming these 3rd world countries are "polio free"!

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/polio-resurfaces-in-laos/




In just Laos they had since 1993 and still haven't phased it in!
The danger isn't based on the numbers from one country alone. Laos, might not have had it since 1993, but it's neighbors still had wild polio circulating for some time past that. Even when they didn't, while Laos doesn't border India or other countries which still had wild polio until recently, it's neighbors do - would it be safe to switch to IPV with neighbors still using OPV due to proximity to actual polio? Articles say the risk of a large outbreak is low due to little travel from the specific area where this is happening, but I can't Monday-morning-quaterback the decision on which vaccine because I don't really know anything about travel patterns for Laos or the region it is in - do you?

While I was googling for info about countries in that general region, I turned up this one on how Bhutan (which does border India) is making the switch to IPV which I'm sharing just because I find it interesting: http://www.kuenselonline.com/injectable-inactivated-polio-vaccine-introduced/

Also, this talks both about the switch to IPV and the switch from the current OPV to OPV that doesn't include polio-virus-type 2, and the risk from neighoring countries still using the version that includes type 2. It also mentions the Israel situation with some wild polio virus found in sewage samples following switch to IPV http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6425a4.htm

It's a complex situation.
 

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The danger isn't based on the numbers from one country alone. Laos, might not have had it since 1993, but it's neighbors still had wild polio circulating for some time past that. Even when they didn't, while Laos doesn't border India or other countries which still had wild polio until recently, it's neighbors do - would it be safe to switch to IPV with neighbors still using OPV due to proximity to actual polio? Articles say the risk of a large outbreak is low due to little travel from the specific area where this is happening, but I can't Monday-morning-quaterback the decision on which vaccine because I don't really know anything about travel patterns for Laos or the region it is in - do you?
Not really accurate!

It's all on the WHO/Unicef websites.
http://www.searo.who.int/entity/campaigns/polio-certification/en/
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/releases/releaseeuro02/en/
http://www.polioeradication.org/tabid/488/iid/362/default.aspx
http://www.polioeradication.org/med...out-globally/tabid/526/news/1202/Default.aspx


No, it's not because of "neighboring" counties. There is no proof that is connected with this. What we are talking about here is vaccine induced!

In Laos, it's the Bolikhamsai area. That is near Vietnam and Thailand. Thailand hasn't had polio since 1997. Vietnam has been using IVP since 2014.

The surrounding counties of Laos have been declared "eradicate" for years! The last case in China was in 1994. Cambodia and Burma also have been free of polio for years.

As with the Ukraine, they too were declared eradicated for years! Since 2002. The countries around Ukraine all have been polio free for yearS, Poland, Belarus, Fed. of Russia, Rep. of Moldova, Romania, Slovakia and Hungry.

120 Countries still use the cheap stuff! The stuff causing vaccine induced polio.

The fact that WHO has sent in staffers (some area's 10 plus times) to "vaccinate" against polio IMO is not about taking care of the issues of clean h2o and sanitation!
 

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Even when they didn't, while Laos doesn't border India or other countries which still had wild polio until recently, it's neighbors do - would it be safe to switch to IPV with neighbors still using OPV due to proximity to actual polio?
As to your use of the term "actual" according to the WHO, that would only be three counties, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Nigeria.
http://www.who.int/features/qa/07/en/


Here is more - ADD Laos to the list of
vaccine-derived poliovirus is causing an outbreak
http://www.polioeradication.org/Keycountries.aspx
 

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In all these recent cases of vaccine caused either there had very JUST been a vaccine campaign or we simply are not being told accurate info.

All these recent cases were vaccine caused, the vaccine sheds up to 6 weeks, so they say. Plus since most are asymptomatic, at least with "actual" polio, that would mean a breakdown via sanitation.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/polio.pdf
Vaccine viruses are excreted in the stool of the vaccinated person for up to 6 weeks after a dose. Maximum viral shedding occurs in the first 1–2 weeks after vaccination, particularly after the first dose.
From - PubMed Shedding of virulent poliovirus revertants during immunization with oral poliovirus vaccine after prior immunization with inactivated polio vaccine.
After administration of OPV alone, vaccine poliovirus serotypes were recovered in feces within 1 week and for as long as 31-60 days in 30%-80% of subjects after 1 or 2 doses and in 30%-50% after immunization with > or = 3 doses. No revertant poliovirus shedding was observed after OPV challenge in subjects immunized previously with > or = 3 doses of OPV. However, fecal shedding of revertant poliovirus after OPV challenge was observed in 50%-100% of subjects previously immunized with > or = 3 doses of the EIPV. These findings suggest that prior immunization with EIPV does not prevent fecal shedding of revertant polioviruses after subsequent reexposure to OPV.
How many are still shedding (the vaccine) like that man from England decades latter?

We hear the same story each and every time, "under vaccinated areas", yet it's clear (IF you believe what WHO and CDC says) that those recently dosed (areas where the vaccine campaign had just occurred) are the ones shedding the vaccine and causing the vaccine induced polio.




http://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_Attenuated_Influenza_Vaccination_in_Adults_

http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccinati...alspray_qa.htm

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/203/11/1542.full

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ccine-derived_shedding_and_viral_reassortants


We know some are advised to avoid freshly vaccinated, due to shedding. https://www.oncolink.org/experts/article.cfm?id=2657
https://www.stjude.org/treatment/pa...h_results.jsp&QueryText=visitor%20information

Even medication as stating it as well.

We have flu vaccine (mist) that sheds, CP vaccine shedding, Rotavirus shedding, we have the vast majority of countries still using a polio vaccine that sheds, how long is the real question, (yet we are lead to believe that another live vaccine, MMR doesn't shed! :eyesroll
 

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@pers - thanks for that. Clearly should have read this thread before just commenting that I don't know anything about the situation in Laos with regard to the choice of OPV over IPV.

The point with keeping OPV rates high to prevent the spread of vaccine induced polio is that if that is the case most of the people a recently vaccinated person encounters will be immune to polio. That usually means no transmission occurs. When the rates are low OPV virus can more easily spread, and more dangerously (because it has chance to mutate and strengthen) start having secondary or beyond transmission.

I can see why it might be counter intuitive, but it's complicated when the better performing vaccine has these less desirable side effects, and the disease itself is so serious.

I feel very lucky to live now when endemic polio in the uk is a fading memory.
 

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The point with keeping OPV rates high to prevent the spread of vaccine induced polio is that if that is the case most of the people a recently vaccinated person encounters will be immune to polio. That usually means no transmission occurs. When the rates are low OPV virus can more easily spread, and more dangerously (because it has chance to mutate and strengthen) start having secondary or beyond transmission.
Not sure where you pulled this theory of transmission out of but.............a recently vaccinated person encounters will be immune??? Will be immune? According to who? Clearly not WHO! or the CDC!!

Oral polio vaccine needs to be administered multiple times to be fully effective. The number of doses it takes to immunize a child depends entirely on the child’s health and nutritional status, and how many other viruses that child has been exposed to. Until a child is fully immunized THEY ARE STILL AT RISK FROM POLIO. - See more at: http://www.polioeradication.org/aboutus/faq.aspx#sthash.No0zEURp.dpuf


From - PubMed Shedding of virulent poliovirus revertants during immunization with oral poliovirus vaccine after prior immunization with inactivated polio vaccine.

After administration of OPV alone, vaccine poliovirus serotypes were recovered in feces within 1 week and for as long as 31-60 days in 30%-80% of subjects after 1 or 2 doses and in 30%-50% after immunization with > or = 3 doses. No revertant poliovirus shedding was observed after OPV challenge in subjects immunized previously with > or = 3 doses of OPV. However, fecal shedding of revertant poliovirus after OPV challenge was observed in 50%-100% of subjects previously immunized with > or = 3 doses of the EIPV. These findings suggest that prior immunization with EIPV does not prevent fecal shedding of revertant polioviruses after subsequent reexposure to OPV.
and in tropical areas 10+ doses are sometimes given http://www.polioeradication.org/aboutus/faq.aspx

he vaccine is designed to be administered multiple times to ensure full protection. In the tropics, several doses of polio vaccine are required for a child to be fully protected – sometimes more than ten.
 

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Not really accurate!


No, it's not because of "neighboring" counties. There is no proof that is connected with this. What we are talking about here is vaccine induced!

In Laos, it's the Bolikhamsai area. That is near Vietnam and Thailand. Thailand hasn't had polio since 1997. Vietnam has been using IVP since 2014.

The surrounding counties of Laos have been declared "eradicate" for years! The last case in China was in 1994. Cambodia and Burma also have been free of polio for years.
I was referring to India. Though "neighbors" should indeed have been singular since it's only Myanmar that shares borders with both.

Originally Posted by pers View Post
The danger isn't based on the numbers from one country alone. Laos, might not have had it since 1993, but it's neighbors still had wild polio circulating for some time past that. Even when they didn't, while Laos doesn't border India or other countries which still had wild polio until recently, it's neighbors do - would it be safe to switch to IPV with neighbors still using OPV due to proximity to actual polio? Articles say the risk of a large outbreak is low due to little travel from the specific area where this is happening, but I can't Monday-morning-quaterback the decision on which vaccine because I don't really know anything about travel patterns for Laos or the region it is in - do you?
As you note and link to, Vietnam just started the switch to IPV last year, and it is in the works to switch the entire world over, but it is a process that takes time.
 

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In all these recent cases of vaccine caused either there had very JUST been a vaccine campaign or we simply are not being told accurate info.

All these recent cases were vaccine caused, the vaccine sheds up to 6 weeks, so they say. Plus since most are asymptomatic, at least with "actual" polio, that would mean a breakdown via sanitation.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/polio.pdf


From - PubMed Shedding of virulent poliovirus revertants during immunization with oral poliovirus vaccine after prior immunization with inactivated polio vaccine.


How many are still shedding (the vaccine) like that man from England decades latter?

We hear the same story each and every time, "under vaccinated areas", yet it's clear (IF you believe what WHO and CDC says) that those recently dosed (areas where the vaccine campaign had just occurred) are the ones shedding the vaccine and causing the vaccine induced polio.




http://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_Attenuated_Influenza_Vaccination_in_Adults_

http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccinati...alspray_qa.htm

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/203/11/1542.full

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ccine-derived_shedding_and_viral_reassortants


We know some are advised to avoid freshly vaccinated, due to shedding. https://www.oncolink.org/experts/article.cfm?id=2657
https://www.stjude.org/treatment/pa...h_results.jsp&QueryText=visitor%20information

Even medication as stating it as well.

We have flu vaccine (mist) that sheds, CP vaccine shedding, Rotavirus shedding, we have the vast majority of countries still using a polio vaccine that sheds, how long is the real question, (yet we are lead to believe that another live vaccine, MMR doesn't shed! :eyesroll

I'm not quite sure what you meant by: "Plus since most are asymptomatic, at least with "actual" polio, that would mean a breakdown via sanitation."

Another quote from your first link:

Transmission
Person-to-person spread of poliovirus via the fecal-oral route
is the most important route of transmission, although the
oral-oral route is possible.
I'm not sure what the sanitary/sewer system is like there, but in any case, polio typically spreads person to person often from not doing a great job washing hands after using the bathroom.

Regarding the rest, the problem with undervaccinated areas is that the disease can cirulcate for a long time, much longer than the 6 weeks the person who initially got the vaccine might shed for. In a highly vaccinated area, most people the person encounters would already be immune, so they probably wouldn't spread it to anyone, but if they did, it would only be one or two people in a very short chain. With lots of people around who are not immune, it can pass from person to person to person to person to person in a chain that keeps going long after the initial people (or the next people in the chain of infection) stop shedding the virus.

For this case:

Genetic sequencing of the virus confirmed on 6 October that it is vaccine-derived and suggests that it has been circulating in the area for more than two years.
http://www.who.int/csr/don/12-october-2015-polio/en/

I had more I meant to respond to, my kids are just about done with school, so I'm out of time for now.
 

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I was referring to India. Though "neighbors" should indeed have been singular since it's only Myanmar that shares borders with both.
I don't see your point. Could you explain why you are even bringing this up? India, Myanmar, etc has NOTHING to do with this what so ever, this is vaccine driven, again this is not WILD. I don't see what connect you are attempting to form here as it's not even related to polio caused by the vaccine.

Both India and Myanmar are declared eradicated. This section of Vietnam isn't even near India.

http://www.irinnews.org/report/82261/myanmar-polio-campaign-targets-7-4-million-children
Myanmar declared itself polio-free in 2003, only to lose that status in 2006 when another case was reported in Pyin Oo Lwin Township in Mandalay Division. In 2007, 10 wild poliovirus cases were detected in Maungdaw and one in Buthidaung townships, with the last positive polio case detected on 15 May 2007.

Myanmar’s Department of Health reported 15 confirmed cases in 2007, while no cases were reported in 2008.
We are in 2015! It's not like this just happened and beside we are NOT talking about WILD polio. What is going on in Laos is caused by the vaccine, it's not wild or "traditional". Vaccine induced. Are you trying to say what has occurred in India is caused by the vaccine? Frankly non-vaccers would love to discuss that!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
We are in 2015! It's not like this just happened and beside we are NOT talking about WILD polio. What is going on in Laos is caused by the vaccine, it's not wild or "traditional". Vaccine induced.
Very ironic that the goal is to eradicate wild polio, now with concerns on how to eradicate vaccine-induced polio. In Bizarro world, I'm sure this all plays out perfectly.
 

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I'm not quite sure what you meant by: "Plus since most are asymptomatic, at least with "actual" polio, that would mean a breakdown via sanitation."
You don't know about asymptomatic polio?

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/polio.pdf

Up to 72% of all polio infections in children are asymptomatic. Infected persons without symptoms shed virus in the stool and are able to transmit the virus to others.
Approximately 24% of polio infections in children consist of a minor, nonspecific illness without clinical or laboratory evidence of central nervous system invasion. This clinical presentation is known as abortive poliomyelitis, and is characterized by complete recovery in less than a week. This is characterized by a low grade fever and sore throat.
72 + 24 = 96 plus you add 1-5 and you get the MAJORITY (most)

Nonparalytic aseptic meningitis (symptoms of stiffness of the neck, back, and/or legs), usually following several days after a prodrome similar to that of minor illness, occurs in 1%–5% of polio infections in children. Increased or abnormal sensations can also occur. Typically these symptoms will last from 2 to 10 days, followed by complete recovery.
Fewer than 1% of all polio infections in children result in flaccid paralysis.

From your link (WHO) it doesn't say how they determined it has been "circulating for two years", yet shows they knew there was at least some polio vaccines was given out in 2015 otherwise they wouldn't now what that rate was
was of 40% to 66% between 2009 and 2014; and 44% in 2015 to date.
.

Seems pretty odd IF they knew it was circulating why they let this happen????

This is caused by vaccinating! And one could say huge negligence since they (WHO) is admitting they knew it was circulating now that they did testing?! Just taking one for the herd! Collateral Damage!
This really is deplorable, during the past two years no samples were taken? Though that was included in monitoring! Good to know how little checking is being done, real trust issue IMO!
 

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