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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
<p>After having my 17MO lately I've been on a "One born every minute" "baby story" don't know the name of it on Discover health about birth? kick.  In all of these and including myself (emergency C-section) all ask for the same thing drug free natural birth.  That is what we are trained to believe that we have to have.  After watching so many of these show the "perfect birth" theory just doesn't exist.  I watched my SIL and friends despair over having a c-section.  They all felt robbed of what??? Seriously what??  We are led to believe that c-sections are evil and that they are done 99 percent of the time because we have sadistic dr's that are knife happy.  So not true a doctor and a midwife are there for the baby.  Whatever way your baby comes doesn't take away from the happiness and joy you experience for the rest of your life.  Rather then push "perfect birth" push your baby will come out the way that suits him/her best. </p>
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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Lulu0910</strong> <a href="/community/t/1345213/dispelling-the-perfect-birth-theory/0_100#post_16876634"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><p>After having my 17MO lately I've been on a "One born every minute" "baby story" don't know the name of it on Discover health about birth? kick.  In all of these and including myself (emergency C-section) all ask for the same thing drug free natural birth.  That is what we are trained to believe that we have to have.  After watching so many of these show the "perfect birth" theory just doesn't exist.  I watched my SIL and friends despair over having a c-section.  They all felt robbed of what??? Seriously what??  We are led to believe that c-sections are evil and that they are done 99 percent of the time because we have sadistic dr's that are knife happy.  So not true a doctor and a midwife are there for the baby.  Whatever way your baby comes doesn't take away from the happiness and joy you experience for the rest of your life.  Rather then push "perfect birth" push your baby will come out the way that suits him/her best. </p>
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I'm happy to hear that you had a great c-section birth and that you and you DC are doing well.</p>
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<p>I do, however, disagree with the statement, "Whatever way your baby comes doesn't take away from the happiness and joy you experience for the rest of your life." While this may be true to you (and if it is, that's wonderful!), it is not the truth for so many women who have had c-sections. </p>
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
<p>Cat 13 </p>
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<p>I'm happy to hear that you had a great c-section birth and that you and you DC are doing well.</p>
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<p>I do, however, disagree with the statement, "Whatever way your baby comes doesn't take away from the happiness and joy you experience for the rest of your life." While this may be true to you (and if it is, that's wonderful!), it is not the truth for so many women who have had c-sections. </p>
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I know it's not true for many but it shouldn't have to be that way.  C-section is not the end of the world or worse seen as a failure.  Delivery shouldn't be a focus your newborn baby should be.  It's a joyous event bringing a baby into this world regardless of how it happens. </p>
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I believe in pushing to get the natural delivery that you want. It doesn't have to be drug-free, but C-sections just have so many complications and risks that could come up. Plus recovery time is much worse. (So I hear) So unless it is life threatening, I see no problem in avoiding it at all costs.<br>
There are times when a c-section is necessary so I'm not saying that they shouldn't ever be done. But the way that it was created to be is what I feel is safest. And from my personal experience from a natural drug-free labor, I enjoyed every minute. It was painful, but it was pain with a purpose. Not to mention, there's nothing like the feeling of "I can conquer the world" after accomplishing the huge task!<br><br>
So I don't blame woman for wanting a natural birth!<br><br>
However I do agree that baby is very important! Of course if there's a chance of them being harmed, and a c-section is the only way, then it should be done.<br>
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
<p>Mamaforlife14 </p>
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<p>Can't have your cake and eat it too!</p>
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<div>I disagree, as a christian, I firmly believe in pushing to get the delivery the way that God made it to happen!</div>
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<div>There are times when a c-section is necessary so I'm not saying that they shouldn't ever be done.</div>
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<p>Well which one is it? <br>
In your words then since I didn't deliver my baby naturally (emergency C-section) then I should have died along with my baby.  Since God only wills natural childbirth?  I don't know of which religion you speak of.  But as a CATHOLIC God would never will that!  He gave us incredible minds to create unimaginable things.  Modern medicine that saved so many lives including my baby and myself.  Next time you post leave religion out of this since I don't subscribe to fanaticism. </p>
 

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<p>Jeesh.</p>
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<p>The OP is not blaming women for wanting a natural birth or stating that a C-section is the ideal way to bring a baby into the world. She is not saying that women who have experienced birth trauma should deny that and the opportunity to heal.</p>
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It seems she's seeking support - assurance that it's okay to <em>be at peace</em> with a birth that wasn't up to "ideal" standards. She cannot redo her birth, and through it she fought to bring her amazing child into this world. For that, she should feel SO PROUD.</p>
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<p>Like all mothers doing their best with what they have, she <em>deserves</em> to be at peace and to truly cherish her birth for its ultimate success - her child.  Not all mothers are able to feel this way about surgical births, and we should absolutely support those who can in an effort to slow the perpetuation of struggle.</p>
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<p>I think it's <em>amazing</em>, Lulu, that you are able to see your birth for the gorgeous event that it was in the life of you and your child.</p>
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<p>Natural birth is amazing and, well - natural. But, in our society, <span style="text-decoration:underline;">it's a privilege</span> that is not afforded to every woman who would seek one, if she even knew to seek it. Elements of intersectional privilege/oppression, including class, race, access to education, access to relatable support, physical/emotional (dis-)ability, access to good healthcare, mental health, family pressures/influence and circumstance all factor into accessibility to natural/medicated/surgical birth.</p>
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Again, every mother doing their best deserves to be at peace. Mothers deserve to be at peace. Their <em>children</em> deserve mothers at peace. Let's not perpetuate trauma for women who are healing or feel that they have healed.</p>
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
<p>Habitat--- What you wrote is exactly what I was thinking!  Thank you for your very dear and beautiful words!  Also helping me to spread the word that ALL births are to be cherished! </p>
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<div>It's okay to <em>be at peace</em> with a birth that wasn't up to "ideal" standards that doesn't exist.</div>
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<div>Every mother doing their best deserves to be at peace. Mothers deserve to be at peace. Their <em>children</em> deserve mothers at peace. Let's not perpetuate trauma for women who are healing or feel that they have healed.</div>
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<p>I seriously could not have written that any better!  Thank you! </p>
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<p>For the record I have absolutely no regrets!  I would do it the same way regardless because I know the outcome.  A healthy precious son and the honor and privilege to be his mother. </p>
 

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Whoa whoa whoa!! In no way was I saying that you should have "died along with your baby" I'm saying that woman shouldn't be put in a category for wanting a natural birth.. You said yourself that you wanted a natural birth as well.<br><br>
I'm glad that God saved you and your baby with the much needed c-section! I was merely stating that sometimes it is a big deal to someone who was looking forward to a natural birth and ended up with a c-section.<br><br>
Please do not take it the wrong way. I'm sorry if I offended you.<br><br>
Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk
 

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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>habitat</strong> <a href="/community/t/1345213/dispelling-the-perfect-birth-theory#post_16878814"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a>
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<p>Like all mothers doing their best with what they have, she <em>deserves</em> to be at peace and to truly cherish her birth for its ultimate success - her child.  Not all mothers are able to feel this way about surgical births, and we should absolutely support those who can in an effort to slow the perpetuation of struggle.</p>
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<p>I think it's <em>amazing</em>, Lulu, that you are able to see your birth for the gorgeous event that it was in the life of you and your child.</p>
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<p>I totally agree with what was said here. I'm sorry that I mis-interpreted what was being said. Thank you Habtitat for putting it in a way that is much more understandable to me.<br><br><br>
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<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Lulu0910</strong> <a href="/community/t/1345213/dispelling-the-perfect-birth-theory#post_16878842"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a>
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<p>For the record I have absolutely no regrets!  I would do it the same way regardless because I know the outcome.  A healthy precious son and the honor and privilege to be his mother. <br>
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<p>This is true. I know I would feel the same way if I had to end up having a c-section. All that would have mattered is the baby in my arms. I apoligize for posting immaturely and without thought.</p>
 

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<p>Lulu!  I couldn't agree more!</p>
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<p>I attempted a home water birth.  After 21 hours and no progress and midwives trying everything, we transferred.  Shortly after that, there were some dangerous decels and I had an emergency c-section and a perfectly healthy baby boy.  And I ended up with some very serious PPD coping with the aftermath of the birth.  All of the "normal" people in my life were so happy for me - a gorgeous, healthy little boy!  But I was in tears all the time mourning my lost home birth and the "perfect birth" I had planned.</p>
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<p>Took me months to shake it off and realize I had been duped and it was only all these expectations and promises that if I just believed and prepared and took these vitamins and stuck enough EPO up my hoo hah that birth for me would be peaceful and natural and wonderful.  Lots of women are lucky enough to get that, but that's all they are:  lucky.</p>
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<p>What makes ME lucky is having a healthy little boy, when positioning myself to give birth 15 minutes away from emergency medical facilities, should they be needed at a moment's notice, could have so easily taken BOTH my perfect birth and my perfect baby.</p>
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<p>I see you're new to this site.  I hope you last longer than I did.  :)</p>
 

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<p>I was in 18 hours of horrible pain before I agreed to epidural. I was so deranged from pain  that I was hallucination.   I was in a hospital where doctor and nurse were supportive of natural childbirth and did not push anything on anyone</p>
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<p>I never thought it would happen to me. I swallowed the Kool Aid. I was sure that with year of yoga and meditation experience as well as my acupressure therapist doula by my side I would make it without any meds. My labor was a the biggest lesson in humility and understand that control is illusion. That one can plan and prepare but life has other plans.</p>
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<p>I was stuck and tired .  It was the kind of pain that meditation, position change and all the unicorns and rainbows in the world could not help.</p>
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<p>I had an epidural, took a nap and pushed my 8.6 lb baby in 30 amazing minutes. Thanks to the skills of my amazing OB I did not not have a single tear.</p>
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<p>All went well, right?</p>
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<p>I was so depressed for 2 weeks. I felt like failure. Like I did not achieve what a strong woman was supposed to achieve, the crown glory of natural childbirth. O felt traumatized. I know,,,,I smile now. Tramautized? </p>
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<p>Then, I looked at my baby. My happy baby. Then I thought "Fuck that, this is just biological function. All went well. I got lucky. For change, something went well with my body. What is wrong with pain control? Nothing. Nothing is wrong. I have pain control for every other pain in my body I have been brains washed by biological essentialists. What and how I do with my vagina has nothing to do with my strength as woman. I am proud of my work, my education. I am alive and so is my my baby"</p>
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<p>Pain has no intrinsic value.  Not all pain is avoidable....but if there is remedy for pain it is still not to use it. Pain is knows to have negative effect on the body. To proclaim that labor pain is different is ingenuous. Form the dawn of time humans look for pain relief in pain.</p>
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<p>And just like that I no longer felt traumatized  or depressed.</p>
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<p>With second baby I arrive to the hospital and requests epidural and pitocin. 12 hours labor. 15 min pushing.  9 lbs baby.  Amazingly, with all those interventions I actually felt empowered And I was not depressed.</p>
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<p>My second birth, was a perfect one to me. I came without fear of evil interventions. I felt fine if I needed a c-section. I had a great time.</p>
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<p>The only type of perfect birth to me is the one that end with healthy mom and baby.  The rest is cherry on top. The rest is the privilege of First World  spoiled citizens.</p>
 

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<p>Lulu0910, welcome to MDC! There is a Cesarean forum where you might find some conversations worth joining.</p>
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<p>I am another one who would love to see the myth of the "perfect birth" overthrown. There is not one type of birth that is perfect for everyone. An unmedicated vaginal birth is ideal for some, but for others it can be traumatic. In some cases, interventions are truly necessary and essential for a better experience for both baby and mother. And I agree completely with the PP who mentioned that we have only the illusion of control over birth. Sometimes that illusion stays intact because things seem to go so perfectly and according to plan. But there are those of us for whom the illusion is forever shattered, when our births do not follow the plan and things do not turn out the way we expected.</p>
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<p>I also wish that we could learn to provide better support for moms who experience birth trauma, regardless of what causes that trauma. It is not helpful to assume that a woman must be traumatized by her c-section. It is not helpful to assume that a woman who had an intervention-free vaginal birth couldn't possibly be traumatized by her experience. It is helpful to no one to assume that birth trauma doesn't exist as long as a living baby results from the birth. It is just as unhelpful to assume that women who experience birth trauma must suffer for the rest of their lives, or to discount the reality of resilience and healing.</p>
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<p>Here's what I'd like: a world that has room for many stories about birth, where many experiences can be honored and celebrated, where women are believed to be the experts of their own experiences and have tools to support them through those experiences. A world where birth is acknowledged to be the wild, untamable mystery that it is...a mystery that touches each of us in a different way. I'd like to see a world where we quit trying to fit birth into a neat, tidy, happy box.</p>
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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>CI Mama</strong> <a href="/community/t/1345213/dispelling-the-perfect-birth-theory/0_100#post_16879412"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><p>Lulu0910, welcome to MDC! There is a Cesarean forum where you might find some conversations worth joining.</p>
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<p>I am another one who would love to see the myth of the "perfect birth" overthrown. There is not one type of birth that is perfect for everyone. An unmedicated vaginal birth is ideal for some, but for others it can be traumatic. In some cases, interventions are truly necessary and essential for a better experience for both baby and mother. And I agree completely with the PP who mentioned that we have only the illusion of control over birth. Sometimes that illusion stays intact because things seem to go so perfectly and according to plan. But there are those of us for whom the illusion is forever shattered, when our births do not follow the plan and things do not turn out the way we expected.</p>
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<p>I also wish that we could learn to provide better support for moms who experience birth trauma, regardless of what causes that trauma. It is not helpful to assume that a woman must be traumatized by her c-section. It is not helpful to assume that a woman who had an intervention-free vaginal birth couldn't possibly be traumatized by her experience. It is helpful to no one to assume that birth trauma doesn't exist as long as a living baby results from the birth. It is just as unhelpful to assume that women who experience birth trauma must suffer for the rest of their lives, or to discount the reality of resilience and healing.</p>
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<p>Here's what I'd like: a world that has room for many stories about birth, where many experiences can be honored and celebrated, where women are believed to be the experts of their own experiences and have tools to support them through those experiences. A world where birth is acknowledged to be the wild, untamable mystery that it is...a mystery that touches each of us in a different way. I'd like to see a world where we quit trying to fit birth into a neat, tidy, happy box.</p>
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<p>You said this so beautifully!</p>
 

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I think the bigger picture here is not that there isn't an ideal way to birth, agreeing with that seems an attempt at patronizing those who had experiences different from the ideal. Ideally, a relatively quick, painless, vaginal birth with no complications is ideal. The issue really is that there are women who don't cope well with the fact that life is not always ideal and not a one of us is perfect, nor are we as in control as we think we are. Realizing that actually brings the most peace because you are able to accept reality as it is and be grateful rather than focusing on the lack of perfection. I really believe that the disappointment some women may feel because they didn't have the perfect birth experience is an indicator of a deeper issue not necessarily related to their birthing expectations at all.
 

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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>angelarose1</strong> <a href="/community/t/1345213/dispelling-the-perfect-birth-theory#post_16879574"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I think the bigger picture here is not that there isn't an ideal way to birth, agreeing with that seems an attempt at patronizing those who had experiences different from the ideal. Ideally, a relatively quick, painless, vaginal birth with no complications is ideal.</div>
<div class="quote-block"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,205);">That is one way of defining an ideal birth. Another way is to say that an ideal birth is one at which the mother is fully supported in her experience, treated with dignity and respect, and given every opportunity to guide her experience in the way that feels right for her, when circumstances allow. That way of looking at "ideal" doesn't define a time frame or a level of pain or an exit method that must be ideal for everyone; rather, it makes room for many differing experiences that share the ideal of being supportive of the mother. In that framework for "ideal" there would be room for women who have long, difficult, painful births to still feel very good about their experience; women who choose interventions (yes, even c-sections) would also have room to feel that their birth was "ideal." It's not so much about the physical aspects of birth, but how they are framed.</span></div>
<div class="quote-block">The issue really is that there are women who don't cope well with the fact that life is not always ideal and not a one of us is perfect, nor are we as in control as we think we are. Realizing that actually brings the most peace because you are able to accept reality as it is and be grateful rather than focusing on the lack of perfection. I really believe that the disappointment some women may feel because they didn't have the perfect birth experience is an indicator of a deeper issue not necessarily related to their birthing expectations at all.</div>
<div class="quote-block"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,205);">I don't think there's one "issue" that causes women to feel disappointed in their birth. It is true that there are many things about birth that we can't control, but that doesn't mean that accepting reality, being grateful, and coming to a place a peace is right or best in every instance. If a woman was treated with disrespect or even brutality by hospital staff, and that treatment impacted her birth in a negative way, she may not have been in control of that situation, but recognizing as such isn't necessarily going to bring her "peace."</span></div>
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I guess I just always fall in the camp of looking at individual women and individual situations, rather than trying to come up with an ideal process (for giving birth or for recovering from one) that's going to work the same way for everyone.</p>
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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>CI Mama</strong> <a href="/community/t/1345213/dispelling-the-perfect-birth-theory#post_16879412"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><p>Here's what I'd like: a world that has room for many stories about birth, where many experiences can be honored and celebrated, where women are believed to be the experts of their own experiences and have tools to support them through those experiences. A world where birth is acknowledged to be the wild, untamable mystery that it is...a mystery that touches each of us in a different way. I'd like to see a world where we quit trying to fit birth into a neat, tidy, happy box.</p>
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<br><br><p>I love this statement! So beautifully put!</p>
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<p>I hope it's okay that I'm joining this discussion.. I actually had an unmedicated, natural delivery. I have very fond, happy memories of my birth, but I in no way think that it was "a perfect birth". I had 3rd degree tearing, which is far from perfect or ideal in my book, although I still feel very blessed that my delivery was free from any other complications. I do however feel that the most perfect moment in my life was when I got to hold my baby and look into his eyes for the first time. That was sheer perfection for me. And I imagine that moment of perfection is similar for all women regardless of how that moment happens in the end. At least I very much hope and wish that for all women, because it truly does not matter in the end how the baby arrived, but just that they did arrive safely into loving arms. </p>
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<p>I also wanted to say that I think there were 2 factors that contributed to my having a fairly successful, natural delivery. 1) Like LadyJade said, Luck. Pure Luck, and lots of it. :)   2) Education. I think this is generally something that almost anyone on the MDC forums has in their toolbox as well, because just being on these forums is a bit of an education itself. ;) I took a Bradley birthing class and the biggest thing that did for me was made me feel less fearful going into something I had absolutely no experience with. I felt like no matter what happened, I would at least have a good understanding of my options and what to expect so I could made educated choices as my birth progressed. I think any woman that has armed herself with knowledge before birth should feel accomplished simply because she was her own advocate and made informed choices. </p>
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<p>I think as women, we should all support, uplift and celebrate each other more. And I think discussions like this are important so that more women can embrace the beauty of their unique birth story, no matter what the factors of that event were. And let's face it, birth is just naturally an imperfect thing. </p>
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<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/community/t/1345213/dispelling-the-perfect-birth-theory#post_16879792" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>CI Mama</strong> <a href="/community/t/1345213/dispelling-the-perfect-birth-theory#post_16879792"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif"></a><br><br><p><br>
That is one way of defining an ideal birth. Another way is to say that an ideal birth is one at which the mother is fully supported in her experience, treated with dignity and respect, and given every opportunity to guide her experience in the way that feels right for her, when circumstances allow. That way of looking at "ideal" doesn't define a time frame or a level of pain or an exit method that must be ideal for everyone; rather, it makes room for many differing experiences that share the ideal of being supportive of the mother. In that framework for "ideal" there would be room for women who have long, difficult, painful births to still feel very good about their experience; women who choose interventions (yes, even c-sections) would also have room to feel that their birth was "ideal." It's not so much about the physical aspects of birth, but how they are framed.</p>
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Agree wholeheartedly! Each woman should have all the information she needs on risks and benefits available to make the right decisions for her and to be fully supported whatever she chooses and not pressured by anyone to choose something she doesn't want. And if birth doesn't go the way the woman wanted, she should be able to mourn, make peace, etc. however she wants and needs to handle that. I got about as close to the birth I wanted as is possible, but there are still things I wasn't happy about because I was not always treated with respect or cared for appropriately and I had to work through dealing with that too.
 

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<p>My "ideal birth" statement is based on how the birth process usually occurs among non-human primates. Whether that is an appropriate basis is obviously debatable.  All disappointment stems from unmet expectations.  Many of the women experienceing disappointment had birth experiences that didn't meet their expectations, but that were positive in all  the ways you mention. In which case I do believe that there is a common deeper "issue" at play. </p>
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<p>From personal experience, one does feel disappointment, anger,  sadness about suffering unneccessarily at the hands of someone else.  But ultimately one must accept that the suffering happened and move forward. Moving forward doesn't necessarily mean pretending it never happened, but it means letting go of the negative feelings. One can work passionately against injustice without letting it engulf them, one can speak out against wrongdoing without brimming with rage and pain from personal experience. I feel it is in my best interest to do so, holding on to the negative emotions robs me of joy and health. Letting go doesn't happen overnight, but it has to happen eventually.  Even though some people I have spoken to thought that I was upset because I was speaking passionately, I was calm and peaceful inside, there is still sadness but not hurt and regret.</p>
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<p>Also, for my birth experience was uncomplicated and natural, but I found it to be extremely painful in every way. My labor lasted about 7 hours and was pretty intense the entire time. Relatively speaking that might not sound bad, but my expectations were that it wouldn't be very painful at all, it would be quicker, and that I wouldn't feel completely overwhelmed... again, not. at. all. what. happened:)  There are so many viewpoints along the spectrum of the "perfect" birth but I couldn't possibly wrap my head around feeling any disappointment that my birth didn't fit my idea of "perfect" because nothing in my life is perfect. If it would have been perfect, I would probably be in complete awe and disbelief and waiting for the sky to fall:)</p>
 

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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>angelarose1</strong> <a href="/community/t/1345213/dispelling-the-perfect-birth-theory#post_16879984"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><p>My "ideal birth" statement is based on how the birth process usually occurs among non-human primates. Whether that is an appropriate basis is obviously debatable.  All disappointment stems from unmet expectations.  Many of the women experienceing disappointment had birth experiences that didn't meet their expectations, but that were positive in all  the ways you mention. In which case I do believe that there is a common deeper "issue" at play. </p>
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<p>OK, I get what you are saying. Disappointment is by definition the state of feeling bad because your expectations have not been met. But other than a woman needing to either re-set her expectations and/or re-frame her experience, I am not sure what deeper "issue" you believe is at play? I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. Thanks.</p>
 

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Eh, I did have "perfect births". I talk about birthing with a huge smile on my face even many years after. Yeah, I did have a midwife, I exercised, took Bradley classes and did the Brewer diet. And it is peaceful post-partum not to have any birth regrets or anger like so many of my friends had. But maybe I was just lucky.
 
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