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Can someone please point me in the right direction. I'm looking for a study that showed that babies that underwent circumcision did indeed feel the pain, and that their levels of...something... were elevated for quite some time afterwards.

I'm in an argument with someone who insists that babies don't feel pain during circumcision. And I need to back up my words with a scientific study.

Thank you very much!
 

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Can someone please point me in the right direction. I'm looking for a study that showed that babies that underwent circumcision did indeed feel the pain, and that their levels of...something... were elevated for quite some time afterwards.

I'm in an argument with someone who insists that babies don't feel pain during circumcision. And I need to back up my words with a scientific study.

Thank you very much!
I would say this: cut off your "female super-sensitive spot" as an adult and rate the pain on a scale of 1-10... and now you can speak for infants.

As for a scientific study... its very hard to communicate with infants. I'm sure if they could speak they would be saying "WHY? THIS F**KING HURTS.". Hence why we do the operation before they can speak.
 

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Are all the people who are pro circumcision women? Just ask because pp said imagine cutting off the *female* super sensitive spot.

Also, cutting off the entire clitoris is distinct from removing the foreskin. The male equivalent would be cutting off the head of the penis. There is a female equivalent to the male circumcision where the inner lips are removed but the clitoris stays, or one that's practiced in some middle eastern places where a small tip of skin is taken from the top of the clitoris, though i think more is taken from male foreskins if we're comparing procedures.

None of this is to say that i am pro circumcision, my son is intact and can do whatever he wants with his man bit when he's old enough to decide. Just wanted to clarify that the foreskin is not the male equivalent to a clitoris - though maybe that's not what was being suggested.
 

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Also, obviously babies feel pain. Op, are you sure the person isn't just saying that to antagonize you? It sounds pretty ridiculous. Do they not think that babies have nerve endings? People sometimes make that argument about lobsters because they're exoskeletons I think, but human babies, why would someone think that? Makes no sense. It's true that in some procedures the baby may not feel any pain at the time - particularly if the anesthetic is strong enough or if a GA is used, but there will be pain during recovery, and if the baby is awake during the procedure there will also be psychological pain from the fear of being strapped down in one of those super torturey circumcision tables. OP, i think the person must be saying that the baby doesn't feel pain during the procedure, and it's true that physically, during the procedure, the penis may not feel any pain due to the anesthetic. But afterwards there must be some pain, there could be pain if the anesthetic doesn't work properly, there could be pain from thrashing about in the table or whatever.
 

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OP, Yes babies feel pain, and some people think that they feel it more acutely than adults. They also exhibit elevated levels of cortisol during and after a circumcision (is that the word you were looking for?). Their response to pain is altered by the experience and as older children they appear to experience pain more acutely than either girls or intact boys. Check out www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio2/ . There are others, and if I find them I will post.

Along a similar vein, is the notion that they don't remember it. That is BS too. While explicit memory does not start until around age 3, and they can't consciously recall being circumcised, Implicit memory begins in the mother's womb. Everything that baby is exposed to leaves a trace on it's brain. It has been reported that some men exhibit symptoms of PTSD which can only be attributed to their childhood circumcision.
 

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I'd turn it around on them. How can a baby not feel pain? What is different about a human baby that would make them not feel pain? At what age do things change that make it so a baby does feel pain?

IMO, it's a cop out. If babies don't feel pain, it's ok to rip body parts off them. Smh.

Sus
 
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well.think so,Just wanted to clarify that the foreskin is not the male equivalent to a clitoris - though maybe that's not what was being suggested.
 

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If you pinch a baby, do they not cry? I have heard this before and it doesn't make any sense. Of course babies feel pain.
Do you think people actually believe that babies don't feel pain, or they just say that to be contentious and get a rise out of others. I am genuinely confused by this. I just don't see how anyone could believe this.
 

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Do you think people actually believe that babies don't feel pain, or they just say that to be contentious and get a rise out of others. I am genuinely confused by this. I just don't see how anyone could believe this.
I most definitely think some people believe it. To admit that babies do feel pain means one or more of these three things:
1. They admit they or a partner were harmed
2. They admit they allowed a child to be harmed
3. They've encouraged others to allow harm be done to a child

Denial is powerful. Cognitive dissonance can be very difficult to overcome.

Sus
 
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I most definitely think some people believe it. To admit that babies do feel pain means one or more of these three things:
1. They admit they or a partner were harmed
2. They admit they allowed a child to be harmed
3. They've encouraged others to allow harm be done to a child

Denial is powerful. Cognitive dissonance can be very difficult to overcome.

Sus
I'm so opposed to causing pain to a baby that I won't let my little one get shots or poked in any way. So of course he is not circumsised. Nobody is hurting a baby under my watch. Which is why I am vegan too! Just because something is institutionalized, doesn't make it okay.
 

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I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian. I spent most of my 20's pretending it was for health reasons but deep down it was because i find factory farmed meat to be a disgusting institution of mass torture and i simply can't abide by it nor take part in it. Now that i'm in my 30's i'm way more comfortable admitting this.

I'm a 2 day a week vegan, trying to move to 3 days a week. That actually is for health reasons in that i do it to keep my weight in check. It works amazingly well for that.

My children are both lacto ovo vegetarians. I can't lie to them and pretend that all the tortured meat comes from happy animals like what they see in books. I think if dh were to really want them to eat some meat and there was a way to make sure that it wasn't ever factory farmed then i could get behind eating some truly happy free range chickens or something. As it stands our brilliant allergist assured me (emphatically) that eggs are a full source of protein for littles and vegetarianism can be a perfectly healthy diet for babies and children.

I agree that babies can feel pain, and those who disagree are either being willfully ignorant or must be stupid. I can't see a third possible explanation. Maybe they're lying when they say they believe that, i guess that's a third possible option.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thank you, everyone. Those links were exactly what I needed.
 

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I have watched a circumcision done with local anesthesia, and it was a horrible experience. Horrible. The baby was crying beforehand as soon as he was strapped down, but he really screamed during the procedure. I truly believe that if parents were forced to watch circumcisions they'd stop very fast.

Also, what about after that local wears off? You'd think tit would hurt then, too.

As it turns out, there are lots of studies comparing different types of circumcisions and different types of anesthesia. There are well-established ways of estimating pain in babies (salivary cortisol, heart rate, and a clinical took called CRIES), as well as tons of ways of doing circumcision or the local anesthesia, so people do these comparisons. That they routinely detect differences in these studies means that something measurable is better addressed with some things than others, and argues very strongly that the babies do feel pain. If you want to see them, enter "circumcision AND (stress OR pain) NOT adult" in the search field here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed
 

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Has no one else accidentally scratched or pinched their newborn?

It is very clear they feel pain and they feel it acutely. I am a firm believer that they not only feel pain but they feel it more intensely because it is so new to them they dont have the ability to process it like older people.
 

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I was cut at 45 (see my forum post on regret). I cannot begin to explain the pain. If babies only feel a fraction of an adults suffering, its still deep, and long.

But parents must look beyond this. The pain is effectively lifelong - having an exposed gland forever is to say the least uncomfortable, until the sensitivty lessens, in which case so does the sexual enjoyment.

If you are thinking about circumcision, please look beyond initial pain and childcare. You are causing a lifechanging event. I have known life with and without a foreskin - since being cut the state I am in now, compared to being "natural" is one of discomfort and compromise. Not deeply, but constantly. You wont know what you are missing if you havnt had a healthy foreskin before, so few people understand the loss.

This is not a "what am I doing to my baby" issue, think "what am I doing to a future man".

I am a living study, an example of what this practice really changes to a man. It saddens me that some parents dont look at the bigger picture and are kept forcused on perceived childcare and local social attitudes
 

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I am not afraid to admit it...yes, they feel a lot of pain. When I took Jordan to his circumcision, I was allowed to watch and it was heartbreaking :( I thought the doctor was gonna numb him, but as soon as I saw the forceps in her hand right after she strapped him down I knew something wasn't right. He screamed so loud it made me feel ill, I broke out in tears myself and asked her why she didn't numb him, she said "don't worry, we don't numb any boys because it only takes a minute to circumcize them and the clinic thinks its a waste of medication, he'll be just fine". I felt so much guilt and he cried every time he went to pee for the next few days. The only thing that made me feel better was when the doctor told me " he won't remember it and he will thank you when he is 15" LOL, 7 years later and he's a healthy boy :) So far the doctor was right, lets see what happens when he turns 15 ha-ha. So its not all bad, but I wouldn't want to put another boy through that, I just hope I don't have anymore boys lol.
 

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Thank you AwesomeJessica for your painful honesty and helping to bring down the curtain of mystique that hides this terribly unatural practice of taking a knife to a baby.

From my experience, expecting 'thank you' from your son may be optimistic once he is 25 and had time to reflect on his unnatural anatomy. Polite respectful silence to parents is most likely, pragmatic acceptance of his unchangeable situation would be a good result, otherwise just hope that he does'nt awaken to the reality of what has been taken from him because that is a very sad path for a man to find himself going down. The pain at birth is an irrelevance compared to that journey.

Or just keep him surrounded by people who think its a good thing so he stays in lifelong ignorance, in which case better cut of his rights to a passport too.
 
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