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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In writing our birth plan, I plan to include "We do not consent to circumcision." Do I need to also include, "We do not consent to manipulation of the foreskin," or anything like that? I know that when DD was born they did a quick check of her genital area to ensure that all looked normal. I did not see them do this, but I read it in her file.<br><br>
So what would/should that examination be like for DS?<br><br>
What should I tell Dh to watch for/not allow when he follows DS back to the nursery for his weight/temp/bath following birth?<br><br>
(this hospital seems to have a high rate of circ, so it may be that with boys they delay the genital check until circ, anyway, and I don't need to be concerned.... and yet, of course, I am).<br><br>
Thanks!
 

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It cant hurt to put it in there. Make sure to tell anyone who comes and gets your ds for anything that he is not to be circed. I would actually put a card in his bed saying that. If you can have someone go with him to the nursery every single time that way you know a mistake wont happen.<br><br>
It is rare that circ happens without consent but it does happen and for me it isnt worth the risk when it can be prevented.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>MCatLvrMom2A&X</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/14698312"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">It cant hurt to put it in there. Make sure to tell anyone who comes and gets your ds for anything that he is not to be circed. I would actually put a card in his bed saying that. If you can have someone go with him to the nursery every single time that way you know a mistake wont happen.<br><br>
It is rare that circ happens without consent but it does happen and for me it isnt worth the risk when it can be prevented.</div>
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If all goes well, the only time DS will be out of my sight is when Dh accompanies him to the nursery immediately after his birth. This hospital has a good record of supporting rooming-in, at least.
 

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Why does he have to go to the nursery at all? Can't they examine him in the room with you?
 

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is there a reason he needs to go to the nursery after he's born? would it be possible to do those exams at your bedside?<br><br>
you might want to get some of those stickers that say something like 'my mom and my lawyer say don't circ' or something to that effect, to put on his diapers!<br><br>
i think generally speaking, newborns are not retracted. it's probably not unheard of though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: going to the nursery at all:<br><br>
Keeping him with me completely would definitely be my preference. DD was born at the same hospital; she stayed with me for 2 hours after birth, went the nursery for a quick bath/weight/temp check, and then was back in probably less than 30 minutes. This is their "policy" <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll"> (I am on a waiting list for a birth center, but I don't expect to make it to the top)<br><br>
The MW said that if they are not busy they will do the bath in the room. As much as I want my baby with me, if Dh is with him, this is not the issue that I plan to make waves about, if that makes sense. [I have a friend whose baby was kept from her for THREE HOURS immediately after birth because of a nurse shift change. I was there two hours after the birth, and I saw the baby completely alone in the warmer in the nursery (there was literally no one else even in the room) -- if that sort of situation arose... waves would be made.]<br><br>
I do plan to talk to each midwife about this. I don't know how rigid the policy is.<br><br><b>Titania</b>, I suspected this might be the case-- I don't want to include unnecessary, eye-roll inducing info in the birth plan, as my goal is to be as ingratiating as possible. Sigh.
 

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I think the only one who *might* try to retract is the pediatrician, but I don't know. I personally would insist that the baby not leave the room. There is no need for a bath at all, you can do that when you get home. Obviously temp can be checked anywhere. I assume they could get a scale in your room as well.<br><br>
It's your baby and, assuming everything is fine health-wise, they can't take him away if you don't want them to. Although if that's not important to you, then nevermind. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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I would put it in there. My dh accompanied my first son everywhere he went, bc the hospital had the same deal where they wouldn't examine in room, etc. When he was being cleaned off one of the older nurses proceeded to tell the younger nurse that he had to be retracted in order to be cleaned properly, my husband immediately stopped this from happening, thank god. My old pedi (we no longer use her bw the lack of ed about circ and problems she gave us about delaying vax) also proceeded to retract at one month visit and I had to stop her. I've come to hate this hospital but that's another post all together.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Sunflower223</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/14698689"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I would put it in there. My dh accompanied my first son everywhere he went, bc the hospital had the same deal where they wouldn't examine in room, etc. <b>When he was being cleaned off one of the older nurses proceeded to tell the younger nurse that he had to be retracted in order to be cleaned properly, my husband immediately stopped this from happening, thank god.</b> My old pedi (we no longer use her bw the lack of ed about circ and problems she gave us about delaying vax) also proceeded to retract at one month visit and I had to stop her. I've come to hate this hospital but that's another post all together.</div>
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!!! Thank you for posting this.<br><br>
It is so frustrating. I spent about 10 minutes online and w/ a good baby book and feel like I have a pretty good handle on caring for an intact penis. How is it that these people spend years in school and are still SO ignorant? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/irked.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="irked"><br><br>
I chose our ped based entirely upon the fact that she is intact-friendly and delayed-vax friendly, too; I may try to have a meeting with her and have her sign a birth plan and/or "no circ, no retraction" statement. (she is too far away to come to the hospital, so he'll just be seen by the ped. on call. I hope having her info inthe file would be helpful)
 

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My oldest (an intact boy) was born at a hospital where circ was SOP and which was NOT supportive of rooming in--in fact, the nursery was full of babies like we were back to the 1950s or something. I'm sure they would say that their "policy" was to take babies to the nursery at least for checks, but I simply put my foot down and firmly, but politely, said no: if there's anything you need to do, you can do it in here (and I kept an arm's length away the whole time). The head nurse of the nursery was so fit to be tied about it she wouldn't even respond or acknowledge me in any way when I tried to smooth the tension by saying "sorry we're such a pain, this is just important to us". But after we left the hospital, I never saw her again--so, ultimately, who cares?<br><br>
I guess my point is, they can have "policies" on whatever they like, but as someone else said, it's your baby. What are they going to do if you refuse to give the baby to them? Call the cops? LOL Send big orderlies in white scrubs to forcibly pry your (or your husband's) fingers away from the baby and hold you both down while the nurses take the baby away? Not gonna happen, so my suggestion is to do what we did and just say no. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"> Say it with a smile, add in an apology, whatever, but stand firm.
 

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I declined having my baby taken away for a bath, very politely and firmly (just react as if they're asking if you'd like a soda refill), then nurse really wanted to, but I very politely and firmly insisted that I would bathe him once we were home and he wouldn't pick up antibiotic resistant hospital germs from the bathwater, and I also wanted to be the one to give him his first bath. I think if you're reasonable and sensible and calm they're not going to be crazy about it.
 

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I'd definitely put it in the birth plan and also communicate it to the person doing the exam, then you've covered both verbal and written forms of communication.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Delicateflower</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/14699891"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I declined having my baby taken away for a bath, very politely and firmly (just react as if they're asking if you'd like a soda refill)</div>
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I love this!! "No thanks, we're good." LOL
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>SlackerDad</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/14699831"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I guess my point is, they can have "policies" on whatever they like, but as someone else said, it's your baby. What are they going to do if you refuse to give the baby to them? Call the cops? LOL Send big orderlies in white scrubs to forcibly pry your (or your husband's) fingers away from the baby and hold you both down while the nurses take the baby away? Not gonna happen, so my suggestion is to do what we did and just say no. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"> Say it with a smile, add in an apology, whatever, but stand firm.</div>
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Absolutely!<br>
Hospital policies are all about convenience and smooth running. It is so much easier to have all the babies lined up in the nursery, so the staff can do the procedures as they have time. As if the babies are piles of paperwork to be tended to, not living people with a need to be in their mother's arms rather than left alone in a plastic box. You don't need to follow their policies. It is your baby. You can just tell them that <i>your</i> policy is, the baby does not leave your room, period, at all, until you are leaving the hospital. And that the baby will not be getting a bath, period, at all, until you go home. No need to be argumentative or confrontational, just firm and matter-of-fact. Tell them you are sorry if it is an inconvenience, but your baby's needs take priority above all else.<br><br>
I wish I had known this when I had my first in the hospital. I did make sure she never left our room without me or my husband, but then I ended up standing there in the nursery with her for about 40 minutes waiting for them to weigh and measure her. (All the while looking at two boys under warming lamps recovering from their circumcisions and listening to another baby being circumcised in the back of the room. Yes they did them right in the nursery. If I wasn't an intactivist already...) Anyway, that's when I learned that when they take the baby from your room to the nursery, that does NOT mean they are ready right then to do the check. They just want to get all the babies ready to go so that when they finally do get around to doing a check, they don't have to go and find the baby. All about their convenience, not about the patient's best interest. Thus, no need for you to go along with it. Lots of people have since told me they didn't let their baby leave the room and there were no real problems with that. You might get some grumblings, dirty looks, you might overhear comments made in the hallway about the overprotective crazy mom, but as PP said, who cares? You're never going to see those people again. Your baby comes before their needs. No need to be ingratiating to them to the point of compromising your policies.<br><br>
As to the retraction, it sure couldn't hurt to have it in the birthplan. You might also want to phrase it as "no manipulation whatsoever of the foreskin." If you say "no retraction," lots of people would go right on and pull back the foreskin enough to see the urinary meatus because they think that isn't retraction (they think it only counts as retraction if you pull it ALL the way back behind the glans) and also they think that for some reason they simply <i>must</i> get a good look at that urinary meatus! (they just don't get that it is an internal structure and that if the kid can pee you can trust that his pee-hole is just fine without poking around at it.)<br><br>
Hope this is helpful! Have a great birth.<br><br>
Jen
 

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My sister made a little sign and gave it to the nurse upon admission. It said "I'm intact so don't retract". Only 1 nurse aid something stupid to my sister...tried telling her she needs to retract it. Anyway, I would definitely do something like that as a reminder. Congrats and good luck!!
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>jenP</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/14700160"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Hospital policies are all about convenience and smooth running. It is so much easier to have all the babies lined up in the nursery, so the staff can do the procedures as they have time. As if the babies are piles of paperwork to be tended to, not living people with a need to be in their mother's arms rather than left alone in a plastic box.</div>
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Great way to put it! I think you are exactly right about what their motivation is to do things that way. In fact, I think this kind of tendency explains a lot of negative things in society more broadly: that as people do jobs on a sort of assembly line, day in day out scale, they become alienated from what they are actually doing, and everything becomes "piles of paperwork", whether it is the restaurant workers who stop seeing diners as real people out to enjoy a fancy meal for a special occasion (and as the economic support for their jobs) but rather as inconveniences to deal with, to the postal carriers who stash people's mail in their garages to save themselves the hassle of delivering it.<br><br>
Some people overcome this alienation and really connect with people and their needs even after years on the job, and good on them, but it's all too often not the case.
 

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I would put it in your birth plan. Better for you to put it there, and not needed to, then to omit it and have it happen.<br><br>
If he is going to go to the nursery, I would definitely put a little card or note easily seen in his bassinet saying something like "I'm intact, my parents do not consent to any manipulation or retraction of my foreskin-Thanks!"<br><br>
I would also suggest you or your husband accompany your son whenever he leaves the room. Anything they say you can't, request done in the room.<br><br>
I know you said that you want to make as few waves as possible, but believe me, better to make waves with people you will likely never see again (never saw the same nurse twice in 3 hospital births over 6 years), than to be "compliant" and have anything you don't want happen to your baby. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>SlackerDad</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/14700605"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">to the postal carriers who stash people's mail in their garages to save themselves the hassle of delivering it.</div>
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OT: Hahaha, that happened in our town recently. My daughter couldn't figure out why one girl she invited to her birthday party didn't show up and never RSVP'd. I just figured they were on vacation or something. Then we saw them a couple of months later and the girl's mom said they only got the invitation that week. Turns out the guy I had seen on the news and in the newspaper, the postman who was convicted after they found him dumping his mail down a hillside, was THEIR postman! Some of the mail was retrieved and delivered, but most of it was just ruined.<br><br>
Jen
 

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Is there an option for you to leave the hospital right away after the birth? If you don't feel confident about a homebirth or your health insurance doesn't cover it you could still leave shortly after the birth and have your postnatal care at home.<br>
In Germany (my native country), this is called an "ambulant birth" - you have to stay for 2 hours (to check that mother and baby are doing fine) but afterwards you can go. I believe in Germany you also have to "prove" to the staff that a midwife will do your and the baby's first postnatal check-ups at home. So, even if this isn't required in the U. S. I would strongly suggest you find a midwife or doula for your postpartum care!<br>
The big advantage is that you won't have to "argue" about what is and is not being done to your baby - and you will be able to rest according to your own schedule.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Thanks for all of the responses!!<br><br>
The hospital where DS will be born really is pretty baby friendly. I wouldn't consent to the baby being taken to the nursery 2 hours after birth if I didn't think he would be back in 20 minutes and that Dh would be with him the entire time. That is the ONLY time I will consent to baby leaving my side, period. When DD was born, most of that 20-30 minutes was spent (by me) trying to urinate and change into a clean gown. I may talk to the midwives and some other friends who have delivered there to see how much of a stink it would make.<br><br>
I DO NOT CARE about annoying them on a personal level -- what concerns me is having some sort of complication (i.e., I have a friend whose baby aspirated breastmilk during the night on day 1 and she seemed to be choking; she was taken to the nursery for observation) in which baby actually <i>does</i> need some sort of care, and having labeled myself as "crazy hippy mom" because I didn't want DS out of my sight for 20 minutes while I peed. It's tough-- my ideal birth situation is a birth center and going home right afterwards, but that simply is not an option (I'm on a waiting list, but I doubt it will happen). I was SHOCKED by how much very small levels of pleasantness/humor on the part of me and Dh last time seemed to improve our level of treatment at the hospital. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but....<br><br>
I included it in the birth plan as:<br>
We DO NOT consent to circumcision.<br>
We DO NOT consent to manipulation or retraction of baby's foreskin in any manner or for any reason.<br><br>
The soonest they will "let" <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll"> us leave is 24 hours. If all is going well, I'm okay with that. If we have problems, I might try to leave AMA. We'll see<br><br>
I really appreciate all of the input!!!
 
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