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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just watching the news on Tibet...and how some of the younger Tibetans are rejecting the Dalai Lama's calls for peace... made me wonder... Do occupied people really have any hope?<br><br>
The Tibetans have been peaceful for the past 60 years or there abouts. Yet, nothing has changed for them.<br><br>
The Palestinians took a different path. They are no better off, but at least there is talk of a Palestinian state.<br><br>
Is there any hope for the Iraqis?<br><br>
What about the people in Darfur? Granted, they are not occupied, but the genocide there has been going on for some time, yet still, the world at large really hasn't done much.<br><br>
I don't know... I just find it all so depressing. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/gloomy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Gloomy">:
 

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I think many (maybe most) do not. I remember in we did a religious ed series on Israel/Palestine and that was one of the saddest parts. When people have no hope they don't have much to lose so no one should be surprised if it's much easier to kill and be killed.
 

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Sadly it seems as if they have no hope. There govt's mistreat them and outsiders either don't understand or don't care to. DH family is from Kosovo, they are still suffering there because there are no jobs.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>umsami</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10795881"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Do occupied people really have any hope?</div>
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Yes, I think that there is hope for occupied people. But liberation usually only comes with a revolution. And aside from the Rose Revolution (Georgia) and the Orange Revolution (Ukraine), it's tough to identify successful/lasting change through a peaceful process - it's ususally pretty violent.<br><br>
However, if you look at Japan and Germany - both occupied by US forces after WWII - in the long term those countries have had very few obvious after-effects of occupation. (I hope that didn't come across as being as insensitive - occupation always has lasting effects - I only mean to say that a country can survive and thrive after occupation ends.)<br><br>
As far as the Iraqis, I don't think that they are being punitively oppressed through occupation - I really do believe that the threat of civil war <i>after</i> the US leaves is the bigger danger for them.<br><br>
Just my 2 cents.
 

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some have hope. the people of the village of b'ilin, in the west bank, who organized as a village and used nonviolent direct action over and over and over and successfully changed the curse of that land grabbing wall Israel is building, they have hope.<br><br>
But when the people of the world take notice and start agitating to change things, that builds hope.<br><br>
Like we chanted in the streets of san francisco today,<br><br>
Occupation is a crime<br>
From Iraq to palestine<br><br>
(and from Burma to Tibet...)<br><br>
and lets not forget the occupied peoples of north america.
 

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Tibet doesn't stand a chance, unfortunately. With China owning us through an overwhelming amount of debt, we certainly aren't going to step in and neither is any other country.
 

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Unless Tibet can get some financial leverage against them either by themselves or by getting other countries to somehow boycott China, <b>no</b>. It has never been enough to just protest or even protest violently without hitting at an oppressor's bottom line.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>iamthesmilingone</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10809616"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Unless Tibet can get some financial leverage against them either by themselves or by getting other countries to somehow boycott China, <b>no</b>. It has never been enough to just protest or even protest violently without hitting at an oppressor's bottom line.</div>
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I know there have been some boycott Israeli products that have gone on from time to time. Nothing has really caught on as far as I know.<br><br>
Is there one for Chinese products too re:Tibet?
 

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OT: Umsami I am wearing my sweater today for Mr. Roger's bday! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink">
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Benji'sMom</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10812713"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">OT: Umsami I am wearing my sweater today for Mr. Roger's bday! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"></div>
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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"> DS1's school is having sweater day today. I'm bummed that I couldn't find a cardigan w/a zipper for him in time.
 

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I feel like there is hope, but I do agree it is awful depressing <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">
 

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I think it is much more complex than merely "occupied". Within every country there are minorities and vairous groups who have historic claims to independence or land. If the world fractured into every potential country, what would we have? A million little autonomous, "unoccupied" nations who hated their neighbors, who were left to start from the begining, and in many areas of the world would be deperately poor and without resources. I'm not saying that there are not real reasons for many occupied nations to have their own governments, but I'm just saying that there is no end...<br><br>
Personally, I don't think the answer is exclusively national independence, but in creating (and nurturing) governments that allow people who are different to live together, all have security and input into the political system, that allow them to carry on their traditional ways of life and have self-direction and be on control of their lives.<br><br>
If we're imagining the best possible outcome, couldn't we imagine China developing a policy that works with a semi-autonomous Tibet which allows China to function as a country but allows Tibetans freedom and self deterimination? Could we imagine a relationship between Israelis and Palestinians that not only provides security and honor but recognizes that the two, despite their differences, are dependent on eachother and have been working together (often despite the political turmoil) since the beginning? Could we imagine freedom as an integral part of just governments? If it were- if people really felt safe within their governments (of people who are not like them)- it would be a different world.<br><br>
Can it happen? I don't know. But I do know that "occupying" a country just to set it free to become another place of violence and opression for whatever minorities left within the borders and to create another country that holds over ancient hatred with its neighbors is no better.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>alexsam</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10815487"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">couldn't we imagine China developing a policy that works with a semi-autonomous Tibet which allows China to function as a country but allows Tibetans freedom and self deterimination?</div>
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How does a "semi-autonomous" Tibet have freedom and self determination? How exactly would that work?<br><br>
And more importantly, WHY should that work? This is not a civil war. This is not a minority group wanting their own country. This is a country that within the last century - not too long ago - was invaded by China. They've been fighting for their independence that whole time, it's just that they've only now started to get violent in their fight. It's disgusting that they should even *have* to fight for their freedom.
 

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No Umsami, they don't. People or better yet nations are divided to thodse who matter and those who don't matter.<br><br>
Of course world tries to be political correct and express horror when people are slaughtered but no worries - it's soon forgotten. My nation was slaughtered and still is under Russia and no one even knows our name anymore.<br><br>
So no worries people - 50 years from now no one thinks about Tibet anymore. After all it is much more important to buy cheap stuff - who cares some dead babies?<br><br>
If Palestine was somewhere in remote area no one would care but since the location is what it is - "hot spot" for 3 major religions - not to mention nearby oil countries people care.<br><br>
BTW. I read interesting thing about the violence in certain areas. Afganistan, Palestine, Kenya etc. Has anyone ever heard about ‘Youth Bulge’ ?<br><br>
Makes sense. Maybe conflicts would die out if something would be done the over flowing amount of population growth?(of course as always religious beliefs make this impossible:/ )<br><br>
Huge amounts of young men without purpose or work ...what else could they do than make trouble..<br><br>
Here is a good article about this theory;<br><br><a href="http://www.cfr.org/publication/13093/" target="_blank">http://www.cfr.org/publication/13093/</a>
 

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But what about East Timor?<br><br>
They resisted oppresion from Indonesia for 30 years, after hundreds of years of repression from Portugal. They fought the guerilla battle for the right to vote for decades, & bore the brunt of brutal retaliation from (mostly) Indonesian backed gangs when the vote happened. That was in 1999, & they still have a (fragile) democracy today.<br><br>
It is good, I think, that people fight for their right to autonomy when they have no other choice..... & I think East Timor shows that occupied people do have hope, if they choose to resist.....<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The process of decolonization in Portuguese Timor began in 1974, following the change of government in Portugal in the wake of the Carnation Revolution. Owing to political instability and more pressing concerns over the decolonisation of Angola and Mozambique, Portugal effectively abandoned East Timor and it unilaterally declared itself independent on November 28, 1975.[citation needed] Nine days later, it was invaded and occupied by Indonesian forces before the declaration could be internationally recognized.<br><br>
The East Timorese guerrilla force, Falintil, fought a campaign against the Indonesian forces from 1975 to 1999, some members being trained in Portugal by Portuguese special forces.[citation needed] The Dili Massacre proved a turning point for the East Timorese cause internationally, and a burgeoning East Timor solidarity movement grew in Portugal, Australia, and the United States.<br></td>
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just snippets from Wiki. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor</a>
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I definitely think that having a large young unemployed population plays a part. If you couple it with issues in Palestine or Iraq where the schools are closed as well, it makes matter worse. Sadly, I think things will only get worse.
 
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