[IncaMama]

my son is 2.5yo and he is SO defiant when he wants to be. he doesn't really do many things that are "wrong" (wrong word, but i hope you know what i mean), but when he does, he does NOT listen to correction/redirection/etc...a couple of examples from today: our dog has a semi-hard cast on his leg (broke some toes) and Rowan is usually great about leaving him alone, being gentle with him, etc...but today he was obviously in a doggy mood and WOULD NOT leave him alone. i did everything i could think of to get him to stop bugging him. verbal direction, physical redirection, physical removal (of him, not the dog). he just kept on going back, yelling that he wanted to play with the dog, etc...

then bathtime tonight - REFUSED to stop slurping up the bathwater. i think my dh was ready to turn himself inside out in there (daddy does bathtime).

he literally laughs in our faces if we yell (which we don't do often, really), or if we are "stern" in any way. sometimes it seems like nervous laughter, like he is so surprised that we're actually yelling at him, but still - no results. he just doesn't really care!

dh used to be "old school" with thinking time outs, spankings, etc were ok (never practiced any of those things, but didn't believe they were wrong) - and i had convinced him that GD was the way to go. but it's getting harder and harder to maintain that argument when our son completely ignores all attempts to discipline period.

aaagh!

any ideas?? are we being unrealistic? he's only 2.5. i know i'm so frustrated tonight, but usually i have some sense of perspective...i'm probably overreacting...and the fact that he doesn't really do "bad things" often is probably a testament to GD actually *working*...but if so, i really need to hear that right now. bc i'm not convincing enough. LOL

 

[HappyHSer]

Quote:

any ideas?? are we being unrealistic? he's only 2.5. i know i'm so frustrated tonight, but usually i have some sense of perspective...i'm probably overreacting...and the fact that he doesn't really do "bad things" often is probably a testament to GD actually *working*...but if so, i really need to hear that right now. bc i'm not convincing enough. LOL

I think, yes, you are being unrealistic. Life with littles ones is busy, messy, loud, frustrating and tedious. It's also cuddly, fun, warm, loving and cheerful.

He sounds very 2.5.

I think you could have made the dog safe by putting him in a safe place. As far as the bathwater? I tried to change that with my first child. It wasn't worth the effort.

I'm not sure what "gentle" looks like to you. I embrace a firm, respectful and authorative style of gentle in my home. I'm an active, engaged and in charge parent. My kids learned to "listen" to my words with Get Off Your Butt parenting.

http://joanneaz_2.tripod.com/positiv...nter/id23.html

 

[captain crunchy]

Hi hon! Hope you are feeling well and everything is going well!

I am thinking maybe he is "acting out" a bit more because he is sensing the big change that is about to come with the new baby? I mean, other than being perfectly normal toddler behavior that is, maybe it has to do with knowing that his life is going to change soon? I am only speculating, but I think children are really instinctive in that way, and even though I am sure you are doing everything right -- involving him in the pregnancy, talking with him about the baby, reassuring him whether with words or not that he is still a very, very special member of the family etc... perhaps he can just sense the subtle changes around him and it is promoting him to "act out" (for lack of a better term, sorry)...

That is not to suggest he is all torn up about it or anything...he can be really excited, really happy, really looking forward to your new addition, but still a little wary of change, or being so young, doesn't have the words quite yet or the capacity to exactly relay how he is feeling ...and that may be a part of it?

Just putting it out there!

I know personally, and I am a grown woman...change makes me kind of vulnerable and insecure, even if it is a really positive happy change. I kind of get a little nutty until I feel secure about it...again, even if I know it is a positive change...

 

[MommyMine]

you are describing my 2.5 year old to a "T"!

I think it is who they are.

As for the dog- move the dog. One can't be around a dog if one can't treat them kindly.

As for the bath- end of bath time if one can't live with the rules of the bath- however for me I let him drink the bathwater- I have reminded him that it could cause him to be sick and (this is my son's magic word as he knows how awful it feels) maybe "puke" and then let him drink if he wants...then if he pukes I would hold him, comfort him but remind him that I thought he might from drinking all that bathwater!

I haven't found much success with yelling either. I think when I do it it means I am at the end of my rope and I need to do more enforcing or providing consequences sooner. But you know what...with a 2.5 year old I find that yelling happens. I try each time to just do better next time.

 

[WuWei]

I am of the 'if you make it an issue, it becomes an issue' camp. So what exactly is ds being "defiant" over that is a power struggle? Perhaps we could trouble shoot alternative solutions which meet both his need for honoring his blooming autonomy and your need for order or whatever. You might reframe this personality trait as persistent, intense, persevering, consistent, focused, steadfast, tenacious, determined, resolute, stick-to-itiveness, strength of mind, vigor, devoted, courageous, resolute, or definitive.

These are strong personality traits for success.

Consider picking your battles, specifically those things which are life threatening and safety issues. And distraction, redirection, engagement (see Playful Parenting), and removal of the safety issue (ie. dog) are easier than trying to muster more resolve than a tenacious 2 year old.

Most things are not interesting to them for more than 10 minutes; and outwaiting that is easier than trying to thwart and "create an issue" for the next time and the next time and the next time, imo.

Pat

 

[johub]

I think 2 1/2 is pretty young to expect listening to really stick.
For example you might get him to stop roughhousing with the dog. But he is not going to remember not to do it in 10 minutes. SO he listens in the first instance and is probably capable of stopping himself, but he is probably not capable of really internalizing that rule so quickly, after all it is new since the dog got hurt. It isnt an "always" rule. SO he certainly has no idea why he sometimes can play with the dog and sometimes he cant.
I would separate them. Put the dog in a closed room or outside for a while.

As for the bathwater. It's water. Kids older than 2 have a hard time understanding why water in a cup or water fountain is OK to drink but water in the bath is not. You may tell them it is dirty or it has soap in it. But it is still 2 different rules governign water. That is really hard to grasp for some kids.
I'd just remind him not to drink the water becasue it is dirty. But if he continues dont worry about it.

I think that you will find that your 2 1/2 year old has started listenign to you already. In some contexts that are easier for him or lessons that he has been learning for a long time. (maybe he no longer bangs on the TV or pulls the books off the shelves) Keep in mind the behaviors that have changed and remember them when it seems hopeless that he will never change these behaviors.
Good luck Mama

 

[Dal]

For the bathwater: would he be happy to drink from running water rather than the water in the tub? When Simon tries to drink the bath water, we redirect him by turning the water on and encouraging him to drink that instead. Sometimes he re-dunks the cup and gets bath water in it, not really knowing the difference between the two (he's 19 months) but overall this works pretty well for us.

 

[sapphire_chan]

Off topic:

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyHSer My kids learned to "listen" to my words with Get Off Your Butt parenting. http://joanneaz_2.tripod.com/positiv...nter/id23.html

1. Generally a good solution for people who're into instant compliance or people who *never* have their kids to anything.

2. If you make a request without saying please, you are rude. Adding the word 'please' to the examples provided in the article would not make them less effective as requests. Which brings me to 'orders' verses 'requests'.

3. The article assumes a goal of instant obedience. And for orders, that's great. However, before you turn a request into an order, consider how you would feel if someone interupted your activity demanding that you do this *right now*. Whenever possible, allow transition time.

 

[maya44]

As to this response to the HHs'r article, I have used a variation of her method for years. It is for those who want an authoritative style of parenting without punishment. I agree with most, though not all, of what she says.

1. Generally a good solution for people who're into instant compliance or people who *never* have their kids to anything.

Did you read the article? It makes it clear that "instant" compliance would not happen with this method. That our dc may be listening to us, but that does not mean they will not obey. And that is OK.


2. If you make a request without saying please, you are rude. Adding the word 'please' to the examples provided in the article would not make them less effective as requests. Which brings me to 'orders' verses 'requests'.

I agree with you here. I think HHS'r is just wrong. I have always used the word 'please' but not in a hesitant way (or the lilting way she refers to). But we always say please. I say it a store to a clerk and I am not expecting the clerk to take my request as optional.

3. The article assumes a goal of instant obedience. And for orders, that's great. However, before you turn a request into an order, consider how you would feel if someone interupted your activity demanding that you do this *right now*. Whenever possible, allow transition time.

I think this article assumes that many people out there want instant obediance, and I think that many do. With the exception of speaking politely, I think that this method is a very gentle way to discipline in an authoritative manner.

With young children I did "get of my butt" and help them comply. With older kids though I used an "active waiting" approach. Just waited for them to do it though making it clear I did not love the wait.

I think that what mainstreamer's don't understand about this method is that it works just as well a punishing your child.

What I think many AP'ers don't understand about this method is that some of us who are authoritative with our children don't "back that up" with punishment.

We do make rules and sometimes issue commands, and it is our expectation that there will be compliance, but if there is not there is no big consequence,e xpect a repetition of our expectations if that does not happen.

 

[HappyHSer]

Quote:

We do make rules and sometimes issue commands, and it is our expectation that there will be compliance, but if there is not there is no big consequence,e xpect a repetition of our expectations if that does not happen.

Thank you, Maya. I liked your feedback.

Some background on GOYBP. I've been immersed in dealing with the conservative Christian community and helping moms move out of some very, very damaging and abusive parenting paradigms. Most Christians believe in parents as taking an authoritative role in the home. They've also been indcontrinated into icky things such as first time obedience training.

:

(here's a blog entry I wrote about it on my parenting blog http://morejo.blog-city.com/first_time_obedience.htm)

The people I've worked with online think no punishment = wild, out of control kids. They aren't going to go from spanking, time out and hot sauce on the tongue to Playful Parenting.

Others, often AP moms, overthink situations. GOYBP is usually as simple as taking the child off the top of the counter.

My approach to parenting leaves room for commands. The responsibility of the parent is to chose the command moments carefully, age appropriately and with wisdom. When transition, waiting, fun, flexibility and compromise are options, I think they should be used. GOYBP isn't meant to be used for everything and as a formulaic discipline paradigm. It's part of a whole, not the sum of the parts.

 

[maya44]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyHSer Thank you, Maya. I liked your feedback. Some background on GOYBP. I've been immersed in dealing with the conservative Christian community and helping moms move out of some very, very damaging and abusive parenting paradigms. Most Christians believe in parents as taking an authoritative role in the home. They've also been indcontrinated into icky things such as first time obedience training. : (here's a blog entry I wrote about it on my parenting blog http://morejo.blog-city.com/first_time_obedience.htm) The people I've worked with online think no punishment = wild, out of control kids. They aren't going to go from spanking, time out and hot sauce on the tongue to Playful Parenting. Others, often AP moms, overthink situations. GOYBP is usually as simple as taking the child off the top of the counter. My approach to parenting leaves room for commands. The responsibility of the parent is to chose the command moments carefully, age appropriately and with wisdom. When transition, waiting, fun, flexibility and compromise are options, I think they should be used. GOYBP isn't meant to be used for everything and as a formulaic discipline paradigm. It's part of a whole, not the sum of the parts.

I do really think HHS'r that your methods are wondeful for getting someone to move from harsh punishment to GD.

And I do think some moms both in the mainstream and not 'overthink' things.

I agree that GOYB parenting is just one tool. We definitely used it when our kids were little. Now, its just not neccessary.

My dd's are really very "obediant". Not because I have punished them, but just because they want to make the whole family run more smoothly and they know that I don't issue commands just for the heck of it, but rather to make things "work". As my dd's have gotten older I involve them much more in setting the rules.
This method has brought joy to our family and peace in our home.

 

[HappyHSer]

Quote:

agree that GOYB parenting is just one tool. We definitely used it when our kids were little. Now, its just not neccessary. My dd's are really very "obediant". Not because I have punished them, but just because they want to make the whole family run more smoothly and they know that I don't issue commands just for the heck of it, but rather to make things "work". As my dd's have gotten older I involve them much more in setting the rules. This method has brought joy to our family and peace in our home.

Absolutely. This is my experience.

 

[johub]

I also agree that "please" can and should be used when requesting children to do things. Even if it really is a "command".

And Maya, I really think that "Active waiting" is the same thing as GOYBP because basically although you dont walk your child thrugh it, you have to stop whatever you are doing and make it clear that nothing happens until your child follows through. I think that the only difference is that once a child is old enough to know what is truly expected of them you can skip the "walking through" part and just use the waiting.
FOr my oldest "active waiting" doesnt mean I can go on wiht what I am doing from across the house and wait while doign something else. Sometimes I have to stand right over her shoulder or nearby and make eye contact.

Joline

 

[knittingmomma]

Our 19 month old is climbing on everything, into lots, etc... Everytime I redirect her, I remind myself that is one time closer to her not doing that anymore

Other than that, all I do know is that they do grow older and that behavior will end

Warm wishes,
Tonya

 

[IncaMama]

LOL it's so funny how just a few hours (or even minutes) of distance from a situation can make all the difference. i just re-read my post and thought to myself "What a goober! chill out, move the dog, give him a drink, and remember that he's TWO YEARS OLD for pete's sake!!!" LMAO!!!

as for get off your butt parenting - i didn't read the link yet, but i think that this resonated with me because at 8.5mos pregnant, getting off my butt isn't as easy as it used to be and i think that i'm seeing the consequences. i'm doing a lot more backseat parenting (or couch parenting??) that i'm not happy with but is sometimes necessary bc of my pelvic issues (i have symphysis pubis separation which makes moving VERY difficult sometimes).

anyway, thank you all for your thoughtful responses! you're totally right that expecting him to listen all the time and "obey" (AWFUL word) is just plain old silly. he's friggin TWO. LOL i think *i'm* the one who's super worried about the upcoming change and i'm taking out my frustrations and fears on this situation...interpreting normal behavior as defiant little stinkyhead behaviors because i'm scared about my ability to handle TWO of these precious little creatures!

so...i've pulled back from the situation and see the error of my ways and thoughts! thanks for sticking with me on this one

it's VERY nice to come to a place like this and not have suggestions that aren't in line with anything i'd ever do...it's so great to hear from other women that my child is just being his beautiful self. it warms my heart to hear it.

thank you.

 

[sapphire_chan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by maya44 As to this response to the HHs'r article, I have used a variation of her method for years. It is for those who want an authoritative style of parenting without punishment. I agree with most, though not all, of what she says. 1. Generally a good solution for people who're into instant compliance or people who *never* have their kids to anything. Did you read the article? It makes it clear that "instant" compliance would not happen with this method. That our dc may be listening to us, but that does not mean they will not obey. And that is OK.

All the examples provided in the article were what I would consider to be instant obedience. Assisted obedience, but prompt obedience. None of the examples had the parents saying "put your clothes away when you have a moment" or "we need to leave in 10 minutes, be ready to go", they were all examples where the parents expected/needed their children to act immediately. So it seemed to be aimed at parents who think that children need to "jump to it".

 

[Piglet68]

NOt to derail this thread too much, but I really appreciated the context in which you are working, HS'er. I think you are doing an amazing service!!!

It's true that the conservative christian authoritarian parent is not going to jump into GD in one step. I know that even for me, who was coming from nowhere near that, still followed a path to get to the non-punishment, respectful parenting I aim for. It didn't happen in one go. A parent who can find their way from abuse to your parenting style is off to a wonderful start. Bless you for attempting to address a group that most of us wouldn't have the stomach to deal with (me included).

 

[HappyHSer]

Quote:

All the examples provided in the article were what I would consider to be instant obedience. Assisted obedience, but prompt obedience. None of the examples had the parents saying "put your clothes away when you have a moment" or "we need to leave in 10 minutes, be ready to go", they were all examples where the parents expected/needed their children to act immediately. So it seemed to be aimed at parents who think that children need to "jump to it".

No, it's for when a parent does think a child needs to jump to it. Not for parents who think that's all children should do.