[Momily]

So, I think I found a house to rent, and was exploring the neighborhood around it and came across a doggie daycare. Since I'm hoping to get a dog I went inside to ask a bunch of questions.

The woman running it was very nice and clearly loves the dogs. She answered lots of questions and even gave me her opinion on different breeds.

Their policy is that they do not "breed discriminate", either against aggressive breeds, or against tiny dogs (the other daycare I looked into wouldn't take either "bully breeds" or dogs under 10 lbs) and that they take puppies of all ages. They have 3 rooms, which are technically assigned by size/temperment but they said that they've got lots of chihuahuas who prefer the "big dog" room, as well as Great Danes who are so gentle they put them in with little dogs. Dogs under 8 lbs have to stay in the little dog room 9(with those gentle Great Danes), but even 8 1/2 lb dogs can go in whichever room they prefer. Today every dog they had was "big dog room approved" so they had the doors between the rooms open and the dogs played freely back and forth.

They also have a big indoor dog park which seems great since we'll have a postage stamp sized yard and there are no legal outdoor offleash parks in my city. You pay $5 a day or $65 a month and your dog can play all day or come in and out but you have to stay with them so it's not like daycare.

I love the idea of having a safe place for my new dog to run and exercise -- especially if it's raining or after dark (it's not the safest neighborhood after dark), and for him/her to make friends -- but I wondered if that's really safe? We'd be getting a little dog. Let's say we get something the size of a cavalier. We could well have an 8 1/2 lb puppy. Would a bunch of pitbulls, boxers, pointers, and labradors (thinking of breeds I noticed today) run him over, or would he be safe in that setting? Similarly, in a dog park all sizes are together so even if we had a 3 lb teacup poodle (not a breed we're considering, but just for example) would he be safe with a 100 lb Newfoundland? The dogs are all "temperment tested" but I grew up with the world's sweetest labrador who was a dumb as a post -- I could totally see him stepping on a puppy and not noticing.

What do you think?

 

[lamairs81]

Seems like it could cause problems. we have a 50 lb. Akita mix who was playing with a neighbor's Lab mix once ( I'd say he was 80-100 lbs or so) and he stepped on her rear leg wrong and I had to take her to get it checked out. Thankfully nothing serious, but that wasn't as much of a difference in weight/build as they allow.

 

[oneKnight]

I think it would depend on the temperment of your smaller dog.

SIL has a JRT (you know, the loud and crazy type) that would stand up to the big dogs just fine.
Another relative has a Lhasa Apso who would just be hiding and shaking in his boots.
Other SIL has a Shih-Tzu mix and I think it would be a toss up how she would do, she's picky but not necessarily chicken.

I think it would be more likely to cause problems with a somewhat shy puppy that would get overlooked.
Obviously you wouldn't want to put the shaking-in-his-boots type dog in that situation so you would just keep him home and socialize him in less overwhelming situations.

Since you don't have a dog yet, you won't really know his personality till you do.
Our dog was pretty shy as a puppy, but she's pretty social with other dogs now. She had to grow into a little confidence.

 

[Momily]

I think from what they said if a dog were really timid or overwhelmed they'd close the door between the big and little dog rooms. I didn't get the feeling that they'd just let the dog be terrified.

I was wondering more about what happens if a little dog like the JRT that is happily playing and then gets stepped on or bumped into. Or are dogs more coordinated than that?

 

[oneKnight]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momily I think from what they said if a dog were really timid or overwhelmed they'd close the door between the big and little dog rooms. I didn't get the feeling that they'd just let the dog be terrified. I was wondering more about what happens if a little dog like the JRT that is happily playing and then gets stepped on or bumped into. Or are dogs more coordinated than that?

Dogs are WAY more coordinated than that, usually.

Dogs in packs notice if another dog wrinkles his lips, or the direction he twitches his ears, they are much more observant among other dogs than they are of us humans.

If one dog gets into anothers' space, there is usually some growling involved which usually doesn't lead to a fight it just means "hey get out of my face" but I'm pretty sure that the people at the kennel know about that kind of interaction and would probably separate the two dogs just in case.

 

[Momily]

So, if you thought your little dog would like it, you'd try it and feel relatively confident?

 

[Ola_]

Honestly, it doesn't sound safe to me. An 8 lb dog and a 140 lb dog can be a recipe for trouble, no matter how well meaning the large dog is. A swat of a paw can mean a broken neck/back. Never mind if you have two or three large dogs playing or chasing a toy and bump into a little dog (which I've seen happen several times at the dog park, but the dogs were much closer in size so there was no damage, just a bit of grumbling).

A friend of mine has a standard poodle (about 40 lbs or so) and a maltese (about 6-7 lbs?). The poodle is very gentle when playing, usually lies down, but accidentally broke the maltese's tail. My friend has said that she would never get dogs with that large of a size difference again, it causes her too much worry.

 

[DogMomforNow]

I worked at a dog daycare for a year, we had dogs of all sizes together. The little dogs never had a problem (one Lhasa ran the whole group basically). However, I don't send my dogs to dog daycare.

We had too many clients whose dogs passed out "temperment test" because we knew they were willing to shell out $$ for daycare 20 days/month - or because they had two really sweet dogs, and the third (devil) had to come along too. I just don't trust them, nor do I believe that one person can be responsible for 25-30 dogs. About a month after I left a pitbull climbed the time-out fence and killed a Yorkie.

(Note: I didn't get a say in who passed the temperment test - the owner of the facility did. I also asked repeatedly for more help so I wouldn't be responsible for so many dogs, and was refused. Thus, I quit

)

 

[Momily]

If you wouldn't use the daycare, would you use the dog park? It doesn't have the 25 dogs with one person issue since the owner has to stay. I don't think we'll need daycare -- we could just get a midday dog walker. But the park is really tempting since it's the only place I can think of where a relatively new dog could run absolutely free. There are 2 parks close by -- one that's an empty city block and one that's huge with hiking trails etc . . . , but they're both close enough to the street that I'd have to be very sure that the dog would come when called every time before I risked them. So, being able to use the dog park would be a huge plus.

I was thinking that I could take the dog there and then if there's another dog that made me uncomfortable we could just leave. But if every big dog is going to make me uncomfortable then I'd need a plan.

While we there the park was empty for the first bit. Then when the owner took me back to show me she brought her own 3 dogs (all boxers that seemed really sweet and calm) with her, and they were the only dogs there. In contrast the daycare seemed like 25 dogs in a giant room.

 

[oneKnight]

In most people's experience, dog parks where the owner has to stay with the dog isn't any better than a kennel worker. Most dog owners totally ignore their dogs while they are there.

For what it's worth, my dog has never been to doggy daycare or any kind of off leash dog park - and she's social. If you aren't comfortable, then just don't do it. There are other ways to exercise your dog and meet other dogs.

You don't seem to be aware that dogs are NOT allowed off-leash in a regular city park, unless it's a dog park. No matter if his recall is 100% good, it's just not a good idea. Leashes are super important to your dog's safety. If you really think your dog will suffer without having off-leash time outside of your yard, maybe you shouldn't get a dog.

 

[Momily]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneKnight You don't seem to be aware that dogs are NOT allowed off-leash in a regular city park, unless it's a dog park. No matter if his recall is 100% good, it's just not a good idea. Leashes are super important to your dog's safety. If you really think your dog will suffer without having off-leash time outside of your yard, maybe you shouldn't get a dog.

I'm not really sure where you're getting this. I said that this was the only place I'd let a dog off leash, and that it's the only legal dog park in the city, so yes, I know it's not legal.

I do think that a dog with a very small yard would probably enjoy a chance to run somewhere. We could do playdates with friends with dogs and larger yards, but if going to a legal, indoor dog park and playing there was an option it might make me consider a larger range of dogs. For example, I really like Shelties (I grew up with one), and Whippets. The only way I could see adopting either one of those, or a mix with one of those as a big factor, would be if I had a plan for them to really run -- they just seem (to me) to be breeds that need it. I'm not sure how we get from "Having a place for a dog to run off leash seems like a good idea" to "I shouldn't have a dog".

I also have to say, that when I hike on hiking trails in the park, I do see dogs off leash all the time. Is it legal? No. Do a lot of people do it? Yes. If I had a mature dog, that wasn't a sight hound or other dog known for running away, and came every single time I called, would I consider letting it run off leash in a circumstance like that? Yes, I might. My mom had a lab like that -- as a puppy he was always on a leash or in our big back yard, but at 5 or 6, yes he was trustworthy enough to take hiking on a trail.

 

[DogMomforNow]

I don't like dog parks either unless they're private, members-only with very strict guidelines. I haven't found one yet that I like. The vast majority of owners are clueless about dog behavior so I tend to think they are almost more dangerous than daycares.

Jake has a good recall, and if we find a place that is largely fenced in and away from roads we let him off leash. However, for his first 3 years he was never off leash, ever. He's still a happy-go-lucky lab

Are the places he goes off-leash legal now? Nope, they're a mix of places in the city and places in the mountains. However we've only been ticketed once (NYC Central Park - you only *think* it's empty in the winter hehe) and will continue to find old abandoned baseball fields and lots in which to play ball in the city and let him off leash in the mountains when we hike/camp.

 

[oneKnight]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momily I also have to say, that when I hike on hiking trails in the park, I do see dogs off leash all the time. Is it legal? No. Do a lot of people do it? Yes. If I had a mature dog, that wasn't a sight hound or other dog known for running away, and came every single time I called, would I consider letting it run off leash in a circumstance like that? Yes, I might.

But since you say yourself that LOTS of people do it illegally, and THEY might have sighthounds that would looooooove to chase your little dog, or any other dog chasing or dog aggressive problems that they are in denial about. People tend to be very irresponsible, even when they know their dog doesn't have a good recall and doesn't like other dogs.
It really is much safer for your own dog to keep it on a leash.

Even if you have a small dog that likes people, it's VERY rude to have him off leash around other people who may not want to be around your dog. There may be small children that are TERRIFIED of your dog, and even if he means no harm it sure does upset a small child and then the parents are going to be pretty mad at you and dog owners in general.
It's one thing for you to walk past with him on leash, it's another thing when your dog won't quit sniffing their heels or begging for attention, or slobbering on their pants, all of which is not harmful, but is VERY RUDE of you as a dog owner to allow it and if he's not on leash how are you going to prevent it? This is why a lot of times dogs get banned from public parks and trails, because people don't keep their dogs on leash, because people don't pick up their dog's poop, because it's easier to ban them all than to police the rude ones.

Keeping your dog on leash and under control is a very important part of good dog ownership, and if you WON'T do it because you think the dog would have more fun running free, then yes I think you shouldn't have a dog. That's my opinion, but many people share that opinion. If you have ever been harassed by an off-leash dog "who is friendly" then you might appreciate the rules at parks a little better.

I was trying to point out that a dog doesn't HAVE to be off leash to have fun.

Sure they do like it, but if there isn't a good place then it shouldn't happen. My dog gets to be off leash at the park around 2am when there is no people and no cars. My dog gets to be off leash at my parent's 10 acres of woods. My dog stays ON leash for every walk and for every trail hike. She STILL thinks that walks and hikes are the most fun ever!
Being on leash doesn't have to diminish the quality of the dog's fun and exercise.

 

[greenmagick]

Actually, I think I would feel better with dogs matched up by tempermant and personality than by breed or size. There is always a risk with doggie daycare situations, but this particular one sounds as if they really know the dogs personalities. Thats what I would look for.

 

[Momily]

I am still totally confused. I never said I didn't understand the rules or appreciate it. I never said I'd let my dog jump all over people or sniff at small children. I said that maybe my dog would like to run around at a legal, indoor dog park where presumably there are no small children who are afraid of dogs. I also said that maybe, after many years, if he was very well trained, I'd let my off leash in a wooded area. I also said that since I realized that that day was far off I'd like to find opportunities for him to play off leash safely and legally, and I wondered if the indoor dog park might be such a place. I'm not sure why that warrants being called rude in capital letters. I'm not sure why that makes me a bad potential dog owner.

A few days ago my son and I went hiking in one of those areas -- we were there for about 2 hours. During that time we didn't see a single other person. The only animals we saw were squirrels. If I had had my mother's lab (who, wasn't off leash until he was 5, so we had a pretty good sense of his training), at that park I would have felt comfortable letting him off leash. If someone had shown up I would have called him (and he would have come because he always came) and put him on the leash, unless maybe the person said something along the lines of "Oh, I like dogs, don't put him on a leash on account of me". That doesn't mean I would have let him off the leash at the playground or on a city street.

I'm an elementary school teacher in the city -- I get that children can be terrified of dogs. I've had idiots come and let their big dogs, with bad recall, off the leash in the middle of recess in a public park -- not cool. I wouldn't want to see changes in the laws that allow me to call the cops on people like that.

I'm glad to know that your dog does well with no off-leash time ever (is that really true or do you have a yard?). I'd love to hear a little about what kind of breed she is, and whether you think that holds true with other breeds, because it is something I worry about. I want whatever dog I get to be happy, and I worry that a dog that's limited to a tiny yard (about the size of a 2 car garage) playing in the house and walking at my pace or my 10 year old's pace, will be sad or bored. That doesn't mean that I'll suddenly let my dog run wild because he's sad or bored, but I will look for safe, legal means to alleviate that.

 

[DogMomforNow]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneKnight If you have ever been harassed by an off-leash dog "who is friendly" then you might appreciate the rules at parks a little better.

We had this situation just today! We saw another dog coming into the park (it's an enclosed Horticultural center) so we called Jake and leashed him. The other dog (a JRT) kept running over to us. Jake likes other dogs, but this one kept bouncing off him. We put Jake in a sit-stay so the owners could retrieve their dog. Did they? Nope. "He's friendly!" Stood over there laughing, calling, etc.

I asked them to take their dog please, they slowly started to get their picnic stuff. At this point the JRT starts to hump Jake (who is still in his sit-stay) and Jake has had enough, and so he turns and gives a warning growl/get off me bark to the JRT. Only then did the owners decide to get over toward us a little faster

I have no problem with off-leash dogs *who listen* and come when called and don't harass people (or dogs).

 

[Momily]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momily If you wouldn't use the daycare, would you use the dog park? It doesn't have the 25 dogs with one person issue since the owner has to stay. I don't think we'll need daycare -- we could just get a midday dog walker. But the park is really tempting since it's the only place I can think of where a relatively new dog could run absolutely free. There are 2 parks close by -- one that's an empty city block and one that's huge with hiking trails etc . . . , but they're both close enough to the street that I'd have to be very sure that the dog would come when called every time before I risked them. So, being able to use the dog park would be a huge plus..

One Knight, I was going through my posts because I'm still trying to figure out what I said that alarmed you and I came across this and realize that I phrased it badly.

What I meant was -- if you wouldn't use the daycare, would you still use the indoor, members only dog park that's run by the same people and in the same building.

I then went on to describe the OUTDOOR parks in my neighborhood (close to the street, not legal for off leash dogs), in an effort to show why they weren't an option. But I realize that I said "would you use the park" and then went on to describe "the park", and didn't realize that they were 2 entirely different places.

Of the 3 parks near my new home. One is indoor, members only, dog park. I'm still not sure if I'd use it -- I think it depends on the size and temperment of my new dog, and also on how crowded it is. When we were there it was empty. If it turns out that it's empty a lot then it might be worth joining and calling ahead to see if it's empty. The second is the empty city block -- it's not a place I'd EVER let any dog off leash -- there are busy streets on all 4 sides and no fencing whatsoever. The third park is the big wooded park that runs through our city. It's got hiking trails and picnic areas. I might let a dog that I had several years and knew was reliably trained off the leash there. However, it wouldn't be an option for off leash exercise in the near future, both because of the jumping on people issue you mention, and because there are streets cutting through it -- you're never more than 1/4 of a mile from cars there.

 

[oneKnight]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momily One Knight, I was going through my posts because I'm still trying to figure out what I said that alarmed you and I came across this and realize that I phrased it badly. What I meant was -- if you wouldn't use the daycare, would you still use the indoor, members only dog park that's run by the same people and in the same building. I then went on to describe the OUTDOOR parks in my neighborhood (close to the street, not legal for off leash dogs), in an effort to show why they weren't an option. But I realize that I said "would you use the park" and then went on to describe "the park", and didn't realize that they were 2 entirely different places.

Yes that was the paragraph/post that made me think you were going to let your dog off leash at the city park!

I was going to suggest you search this forum for posts similar to DogMomforNow's post. I distinctly remember reading about a MDCer on here who has semi-dog-aggressive dogs and therefore responsibly keeps them ON their leashes, but is upset by other people who let their dogs roam free and run up to her dogs then she is stuck with a bad situation because someone else broke the leash rule.

I'm very glad that you weren't planning on letting your dog loose in the city park!

Eta:

Quote:

I'm glad to know that your dog does well with no off-leash time ever (is that really true or do you have a yard?). I'd love to hear a little about what kind of breed she is, and whether you think that holds true with other breeds, because it is something I worry about. I want whatever dog I get to be happy, and I worry that a dog that's limited to a tiny yard (about the size of a 2 car garage) playing in the house and walking at my pace or my 10 year old's pace, will be sad or bored. That doesn't mean that I'll suddenly let my dog run wild because he's sad or bored, but I will look for safe, legal means to alleviate that.

We have a regular city-sized backyard. Dogs are TERRIBLE at exercising themselves. A single dog generally will not run around in the backyard to get exercise, although several dogs might play together. Being in the backyard off leash for Dusti consists of lots of sniffing, grazing on the grass, and a lot of sitting on the porch watching the neighborhood. She's a couch potato indoors.
She will walk for miles and miles on leash. A normal walk for us is at least 3 miles long, and she wants to go more.
When she gets off leash at my mom's house (10 acres in the woods) she does a lot of running around at first, and lots of sniffing because they have deer and animals to scent out that we don't have in the city, and it does make her very happy, but she calms down and becomes her normal backyard self after a the initial excitement wears off. She's only been there about 3 or 4 times in her life though (she's 2 years old) so it's not like part of our regular routine. She does fine without it, is what I'm trying to say.
She has been off leash at the city park where the creek runs through, generally between 2 and 4 am when nobody else is there. Her recall is good to come back on leash because she thinks "leash=walk=fun"

 

[Momily]

Sorry about that. I just couldn't figure out why you thought I was going to do that, until I read what I had written (as opposed to what I meant to write).

So, given that I'm not planning on letting my dog off leash anywhere outside in the city, except fenced back yards (mine or a friend), let's go back to the question I meant to ask. If you had a small/midsized dog (say 15 -- 25 lbs, or maybe a puppy of a breed that will eventually be that size) that wasn't scared, would you feel safe taking them to an indoor dog park that does temperment testing, and requires owners to stay with their dogs, but doesn't do any kind of separation based on breed or size?

If your answer is no, are there dogs who would be happy living their whole life without getting to run more than once every few weeks, or at least not faster than my 10 year old could run along side them? Or who could get all their running done in a yard the size of a 2 car garage, with a 10 year old boy to chase/wrestle/throw a ball, and wouldn't jump a 4 foot fence?

Am I being fair in putting a dog in that situation?

 

[Momily]

OneKnight -- what kind of dog is Dusti? How big is she? It sounds like she'd do well in our house.

The 2 a.m. walk idea is brilliant, but there's too much crime for me to feel comfortable with it here. Maybe if I had a big strapping husband, but not as a single mom with a child. Or if I got a Rottie instead of something little.