[oceanbaby]

I'm not even sure how to describe this, but it seems like ds1 lately makes it a point to act badly when my dad is here. I don't know what to attribute it to, it could be so many different things. My dad can be very judgemental, which stresses me out, so maybe ds is picking up on that. After ds2 was born, my dad very much always expected ds1 to defer to "the baby" whenever they were playing together, which I think made ds1 feel like grandpa didn't love him as much anymore. He's never expressed that to me, so I can't be sure. Or, maybe it's just his age. My dad is great with kids until they start to express their own will, and ds1 has a strroooooong will, so there's been conflict with my dad being kind of a baby, if you ask me. So maybe that's what ds is reacting to.

I don't know. I don't know what to do about it. They used to be so close, and I know ds1 still loves him, but my dad is just so turned off by the bratty behavior that ds1 tends to exhibit the most when he is around. My dad reacts, which I think then makes ds1 push it even more. It's like this vicious cycle that I don't know how to end.

 

[alegna]

Sounds like you have a smart son there

He's pushing grandpa to prove that he loves him no matter what.

-Angela

 

[Mrs.CEH3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oceanbaby I'm not even sure how to describe this, but it seems like ds1 lately makes it a point to act badly when my dad is here...my dad is just so turned off by the bratty behavior that ds1 tends to exhibit the most when he is around. My dad reacts, which I think then makes ds1 push it even more. It's like this vicious cycle that I don't know how to end.

A few questions:

What do you consider to be acting 'badly'? IOW, what specifically is your son doing that concerns you? How do you react when he exhibits this behavior?

 

[oceanbaby]

His "bad" behavior - grabbing from ds2, talking in a snotty tone, being really bossy and demanding, and even did his spitting/raspberry lips thing in my dad's face (a huge deal in our house). I am conflicted about how to react. On one hand, it is behavior that is generally not acceptable in our family, but somehow when my dad is around I feel bad about calling ds1 on it, because there is such a desperateness to his behavior. Sometimes I am guilty of reacting too harshly because I feel so under pressure from my dad.

Quote:

Sounds like you have a smart son there He's pushing grandpa to prove that he loves him no matter what. -Angela

You know, you really hit the nail on the head. You're right, that's exactly what it is. I just don't know what to do about it, because my dad is failing the test. And it's sad, because I know my dad does love him, but he has such a screwy way of showing it.

 

[Mrs.CEH3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oceanbaby His "bad" behavior - grabbing from ds2, talking in a snotty tone, being really bossy and demanding, and even did his spitting/raspberry lips thing in my dad's face (a huge deal in our house). I am conflicted about how to react. On one hand, it is behavior that is generally not acceptable in our family, but somehow when my dad is around I feel bad about calling ds1 on it, because there is such a desperateness to his behavior. Sometimes I am guilty of reacting too harshly because I feel so under pressure from my dad.

My opinion:

One should never feel bad about setting limits for one's children. It's a prime responsibility of parenting. Tell him his behavior is unacceptable, and remove him from the situation until he can calm down and behave appropriately. In no way should a child be permitted to show disrespect to a parent or grandparent.

In terms of your reactions being colored by the presence of your father...that's your issue.

Quote:

You know, you really hit the nail on the head. You're right, that's exactly what it is. I just don't know what to do about it, because my dad is failing the test. And it's sad, because I know my dad does love him, but he has such a screwy way of showing it.

I will agree that the child is testing your father. He (child) is also testing limits. There should be no question of your father 'failing the test' because the behavior should not be permitted to continue to the point that your father is provoked by it.

 

[alegna]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs.CEH3 In no way should a child be permitted to show disrespect to a parent or grandparent. I will agree that the child is testing your father. He (child) is also testing limits. There should be no question of your father 'failing the test' because the behavior should not be permitted to continue to the point that your father is provoked by it.

I disagree. Why should the CHILD have to put forth more effort than the adult? Yes, the child should understand polite behavior and attempt to comply. BUT I honestly think that he has as much of a right to be a pill as grandpa does. Being a parent or grandparent is not an automatic promise of respect. Respect has to be earned and it sounds like grandpa hasn't earned any.

-Angela

 

[stanswife]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alegna I disagree. Why should the CHILD have to put forth more effort than the adult? Yes, the child should understand polite behavior and attempt to comply. BUT I honestly think that he has as much of a right to be a pill as grandpa does. Being a parent or grandparent is not an automatic promise of respect. Respect has to be earned and it sounds like grandpa hasn't earned any. -Angela

IMHO, because my goal as the parent in this situation would be to create a gentle human being, and gentle people do not behave that way. I would encourage my DS to communicate the feelings that are driving the behavior.

 

[alegna]

I agree that he should be guided and encouraged to behave in a gentle way. However I think that it sounds like grandpa is part of the problem here and HE should be guided as well.

-Angela

 

[MamaBug]

Moving this to Childhood Years

 

[oceanbaby]

I absolutely agree with setting limits and encouraging respectful behavior, but like Alegna said, I don't think simply being an adult is enough to warrant respect. My dad is often being the instigator, and I swear sometimes he pushes ds (like purposely playing trains in a way that ds doesn't want him to) just to "test" him, and then of course when ds freaks out his point that ds is a brat is proven.

I don't agree that it is the child's responsibility to act more mature than the adults.

It's hard because my dad's behavior isn't so outrageous as to warrant cutting him out of their lives, but this dynamic between him and ds1 is difficult to deal with.

 

[oceanbaby]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alegna I agree that he should be guided and encouraged to behave in a gentle way. However I think that it sounds like grandpa is part of the problem here and HE should be guided as well. -Angela

We were posting at the same time. I agree, but don't know exactly how to guide him.

 

[alegna]

Is he receptive if you sit down with him at a neutral time? Some parents are quite willing to listen. Some not so much.... I think I'd explain that he's pushing ds' buttons and how NOT to and see if he's willing to work at it.

good luck!

-Angela

 

[Mrs.CEH3]

Are you asking how to modify your son's behavior AND your father's behavior?

 

[Dechen]

Oceanbaby, are there things your father says or does that you would like to nip in the bud? I think you are in the un-enviable position of having to teach two "kids" how to behave respectfully.

My mother isn't the greatest at the respect thing, and as a result dh and/or I tend to stay near when she's with dd so we can help guide the situation. I expect dd to be respectful to her, but I also expect her to be respectful to dd.

My FIL means well, but can sometimes be pushy and not "clued in" and every so often I gently let him know if he's crossing a line. I don't hover, but dd shouldn't have to be bullied, however well he means.

Is there any way to explain your expectations to your father? He doesn't have to agree, but he does need to respect your rules about your children.

Good luck. Its sad that your ds is feeling so badly about his relationship with grandpa. I hope you all find a way to improve it.

 

[Thalia the Muse]

I agree that grandpa has as much of an obligation to act acceptably as your son does, if not more. BUT, you can't enforce good behavior for grandpa, and you can for your son. You can't teach another adult manners, and it's really not your place to do it.

Sadly, your son is going to meet a lot of jerks in his life to come, and this is a real learning experience -- the right reaction to a jerk is not to be a jerk back!

I think you can either forbid your father to be around your son (which seems like overkill), or require your son to behave well and, beyond that, let them work out their own relationship. It sounds very frustrating!

 

[oceanbaby]

It's hard, because it's not even one particular thing that my dad's doing, I think it's just the way my dad is. I mean, even as a child I was aware of this feeling of "conditional" love from my dad. It's not that his love actually is conditional, it's not, but it feels that way. For instance, he has issues about weight, in that he is very insulting about people who are overweight. Well, my little sister was chubby as a kid, and to this day is insecure because she knows how our dad felt about her. He wasn't outright mean to her, but you could just feel his disapproval. Even now as an adult I don't like seeing my dad when I've gained a few pounds.

Ds1 was very late to speak, and when he did start speaking, was very hard to understand. My dad tried to be "helpful" by correcting his speech, but he came off sounding so insulting and I could see it made ds feel bad. I did say something to my dad about it, but his disapproval about my son's speech is still obvious, and I think that's where ds's insecurity about grandpa started. My dad also doesn't seem to get that when he turns to me and says "I can't understand anything he's saying" that ds1 is standing right there and CAN HEAR HIM! I actually had to point out to my dad awhile back that even though ds wasn't speaking, there was nothing wrong with his hearing!

My dad is very defensive about these kinds of things, but I may have to say something about the way he always expects ds1 to defer to ds2 because ds2 is younger. It's hard because no matter what I say to my dad he says that I am spoiling ds1. I wish I could find a way to explain to him what has been the problem with all his relationships - that making people feel bad about themselves because of their shortcomings doesn't motivate them to change or improve, it just makes them not want to be around him.

It's so frustrating and sad to me. And just to be clear, I don't let ds1 do these things without talking to him. I don't let it slide any more than I do when grandpa is not around. But it just feels bad to me because I know that he is doing it because of some internal struggle for attention and approval from my dad. I am very familiar with this feeling, except his is presenting in a much more masculine, head butting way than mine did when I was a child.

 

[stanswife]

I'm sorry this is so hard for you. I had a few random thoughts...I wonder if he's like my dad and thinks children should be seen and not heard, which may explain why he becomes so aggressive when they start to act on their own will. Sometimes it helps to just understand how another person is thinking when observing their behavior... Also, I wondered if you had ever articulated to your dad how his behavior made YOU feel? This could be the opportunity for healing. However, if he doesn't change his behavior I would personally need to rethink the privilege of his access to my children. Why would I give him the same chance to impart insecurity to my children when I know how pernicious it has been in my own life.

I would certainly keep a dialogue going with my son, though, that what Grandpa does is not okay, and we need to think of appropriate ways to act out our anger. (Punching bag, run around the yard...)

 

[Thalia the Muse]

Wow, that sounds hard. It sounds like you're doing a great job correcting your son and giving Grandpa feedback.

Maybe you could tell your son "You know, Grandpa can sound kind of like he's complaining about people, but he's just that way. He talked to me that way when I was a kid, too, and I didn't like it. But I know that he loves me a lot, and he loves you a lot, and that's what matters."

Is there a special thing that Grandpa and #1 can do together without the baby? Something that's just for big boys and their grandpas, that little brothers are too young to do? Make cookies or go on nature walks or something ... maybe taking the sibling out of the equation sometimes will help them form a better relationship?

>Why would I give him the same chance to impart insecurity to my children when I know how pernicious it has been in my own life.

Coming from a father this would be much more devastating than coming from a grandpa or someone else who isn't central to the kid's life. So I wouldn't worry that he will be as affected as you were. And I think that access to grandparents and other relatives is a great and valuable thing for kids, even if those people don't always behave the way we'd like, as long as they are basically decent people.

 

[mrs_oli]

Hi Oceanbaby-
No advice, just wanted to say I feel for you

. I have the same issue with my Mom and DS4 (I also have 3 other boys). It's painful to see, I don't quite know how to handle it myself. I could have written your post. I will be following this thread closely, there is lots of good input here, lots of "A-ha!" moments.
Good luck and it sounds like your son gets so much love from you....a Mother's love conquers all

(it sounds good anyway..lol)

 

[Susuhound]

And it's sad, because I know my dad does love him, but he has such a screwy way of showing it.

Well maybe he should be less screwy.
how come grandpa is allowed to act badly but not grandchild?

In no way should a child be permitted to show disrespect to a parent or grandparent.

That's how abusers choose their victims. Kids who don't know they can stand up for themselves when adults treat them without respect.

When I saw the title of this thread I thought "well what is your dad doing to cause ds to behave badly around him?" Perhaps you should sit your child down and ask him why he is doing this. Is he old enough to talk about these things? Most 'bad' behaviour in children is predictable from the way they are treated. As he doen't do this around others it's not that he is a 'bad' or 'badly behaved' child. Something is going on and you need to identify it and change things, otherwise the grandparent/grandchild relationship will be seriously damaged, also your relationship with both your child and father.