[bigeyes]

I am just sick about this, and I don't know what to say to her to make her understand the seriousness of this.

There is a girl in her class who has a mental disability. I am still unclear how the rumor started, but dsd was active in spreading it. It got around that the girl was pregnant by a family member.

She's 11.

I had to speak to the school counselor and the teacher about some of dsd's other issues and mentioned that she is continually bringing this matter up, and while I knew it was a confidentiality breach and couldn't be confirmed, I was concerned that she wouldn't stop talking about it. I was informed that not only was it untrue, all the girls in her class were pulled into the counselor's office and told to stop spreading the rumor. It's not true, the girl had some misunderstandings about menstrual cramps and it was like an out of control game of telephone.

:

Dsd has an attachment disorder, and she tends to make things up and create drama for reasons I don't understand. Usually it just affects our family. I'm not sure if she was the ringleader in this or not, but I do know she has continued to talk about this and pretend it was true after being told it was not and it was time to stop. She led me to believe this girl was in a horrible abusive household and was not getting any help and pretended to be very upset about it. Over the years I've learned that I can't take anything at face value, which sucks, but unfortunately she can cry on demand and seems to enjoy this sort of thing.

I also just found out she's been going into the counselor's office and crying to try to get other kids in trouble when she's mad at them and people at school have figured out that she can cry on demand also. We were under the impression she had made some progress, but it turns out she has stopped exhibiting some of the behaviors at home and is instead taking them to school to try them out on different people who don't know her as well.

Our counselor got sick and our next appointment has been delayed for 2 weeks so I'm at loose ends until then. I need to make her understand this is the kind of accusation that ruins lives and is just not OK.

Actually, she probably knows it's not OK. WWYD?

The only natural consequence I know of for these behaviors is being an outcast, which already happens and just perpetuates this cycle of her wanting to get revenge on everyone she thinks is mistreating her.

So, for the next 2 weeks until I get professional advice, what should I do?

 

[MeepyCat]

Oh how awful!

My first temptation is to ask if you can contact this other family and offer them sympathy and support? You know that your DSD repeated a rumor to you that you know is untrue, and you know it has to have been hurtful and caused them trouble and heartache. It's possible that, at this point, just standing by these people a little would make their lives easier.

I don't know what to offer about your DSD, but maybe if she sees that rumormongering doesn't get *her* extra attention, she'll find it less rewarding.

 

[bigeyes]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeepyCat Oh how awful! My first temptation is to ask if you can contact this other family and offer them sympathy and support? You know that your DSD repeated a rumor to you that you know is untrue, and you know it has to have been hurtful and caused them trouble and heartache. It's possible that, at this point, just standing by these people a little would make their lives easier. I don't know what to offer about your DSD, but maybe if she sees that rumormongering doesn't get *her* extra attention, she'll find it less rewarding.

That makes sense.

I can't imagine how awful this must be for them.

 

[sunnmama]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigeyes The only natural consequence I know of for these behaviors is being an outcast, which already happens and just perpetuates this cycle of her wanting to get revenge on everyone she thinks is mistreating her.

Another one is that people won't believe what she is saying if something bad really does happen to her ("the boy who cried wolf" idea). Maybe that angle would resonate with her? (self-preservation?)

Sounds really difficult

 

[bigeyes]

Self preservation doesn't seem to matter.

She keeps setting up situations that don't work out well for her and doesn't seem to get the connection between her actions and the consequences.

Or doesn't care.

I just pointed out to her last night that all of the things that happened in her old school last year just happened in the new school this year, and it's mighty strange that the same things keep happening even when it's a completely different environment and the only thing both environments and all the situations have in common is her. That makes it very difficult for people to believe that everyone else was lying and she was telling the truth in every single incident.

:

I know she doesn't have borderline personality disorder, but the lies she gets caught in remind me very much of the lies I used to run into when I worked with a woman who had BPD. The same kind of easily checked out details that don't add up, the same situations repeated that are kind of obvious to anyone who is paying attention...it just makes people look at her and classify her as the weird child they don't want to be around, yk? Then she doesn't get that she has made herself an outcast...instead she gets the idea the other kids have done something to her. Then the cycle of more and more outrageous accusations begins because she wants them to be punished for their supposed crimes against her.

It makes me very leery of playdates because I worry about what kinds of things she might be saying while she's at someone else's house, yk? And I don't like to have to sit down with any potential friend's parents and tell them her whole history, but if I don't, who knows what they might think when she starts telling her wild tales?

I think for her the attention is the payoff, and she either doesn't understand what will happen if people believe her, or she doesn't care as long as she gets the sympathy and gets to be the center of attention.

Gawd, that appointment can't get here soon enough.

 

[jillmamma]

Just an idea I had, but could you ask her to write a note to the girl or her family apologizing for her part in the rumor? I wonder if actually writing/seeing it in writing makes much difference to her perception of the right story? If nothing else, it would be nice gesture.

 

[zazupitts]

hiya!

I don't know what you can do in the meantime before meeting the school officials, but i'd suggest printing this out (link below) and giving it to the teachers AND counselors at your school. It provides some gentle ideas about dealing with RAD kids...and will help you get on the same team about dealing with DSD. RAD kids tend to do "triangulation," ie... seeking out third parties and manipulating them against the primary parents...so nipping this on the bud will bring some sanity to your life.

http://www.attachmentdisorder.net/Letter_to_Teacher.htm

The site also has some great ideas for dealing with home issues as well...

 

[Theoretica]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigeyes Self preservation doesn't seem to matter. She keeps setting up situations that don't work out well for her and doesn't seem to get the connection between her actions and the consequences. Or doesn't care. I just pointed out to her last night that all of the things that happened in her old school last year just happened in the new school this year, and it's mighty strange that the same things keep happening even when it's a completely different environment and the only thing both environments and all the situations have in common is her. That makes it very difficult for people to believe that everyone else was lying and she was telling the truth in every single incident. : I know she doesn't have borderline personality disorder, but the lies she gets caught in remind me very much of the lies I used to run into when I worked with a woman who had BPD. The same kind of easily checked out details that don't add up, the same situations repeated that are kind of obvious to anyone who is paying attention...it just makes people look at her and classify her as the weird child they don't want to be around, yk? Then she doesn't get that she has made herself an outcast...instead she gets the idea the other kids have done something to her. Then the cycle of more and more outrageous accusations begins because she wants them to be punished for their supposed crimes against her. It makes me very leery of playdates because I worry about what kinds of things she might be saying while she's at someone else's house, yk? And I don't like to have to sit down with any potential friend's parents and tell them her whole history, but if I don't, who knows what they might think when she starts telling her wild tales? I think for her the attention is the payoff, and she either doesn't understand what will happen if people believe her, or she doesn't care as long as she gets the sympathy and gets to be the center of attention. Gawd, that appointment can't get here soon enough.

I'm so sorry mama

FWIW, please read up on the BPD stuff too...Reactive Attachmend Disorder of Early Infancy and Childhood is a childhood diagnosis, so not accurate once they hit the teen years. Usually by the teen years it morphs into conduct disorder or something along those lines, but teens aren't 'officially' RAD. Conduct disorder (and other dx's like it) tend to morph into personality disorder (borderline or any of the other B Clusters) dx's as adults. It's the general progression into an adult diagnosis.

My (now 19yo) DD was diagnosed severe RAD as a child, now is textbook BPD with a not-so-healthy dose of narcissism and histrionics to boot. So, knowing what I know now, I wish I had paid more attention to the BPD information as it would have helped me really deal with this stuff as she got older.

HTH...I think you're getting great advice

 

[journeymom]

I would not contact the family of the other girl. Not unless you have a clear feeling for about the situation and maybe have a serendipitous opportunity to do so. You don't know how they feel about this, you don't know what progress they're making towards moving on. Talking to them about it may simply stir up anger and might just get your hair blown back.

On the other hand, my daughter was friends with a girl very much like what you describe (I was nodding my head through out), and it was very stressful for dd (and me!). The triangulation and manipulation of friendships and stirring up drama for drama's sake is very familiar. I observed that the girl is just SO socially oriented, more than the rest of the girls. When they were little, while my daughter and her other friends wanted to play during recess, this girl just wanted to talk the entire time about other girls. I'm friends with the girl's mom, and by 5th or 6th grade I could see that it was painful for her and she was struggling to help her daughter deal with the fall-out from one girlfriend-break up after another.

Quote:

I know she doesn't have borderline personality disorder, but the lies she gets caught in remind me very much of the lies I used to run into when I worked with a woman who had BPD.

Someone here at MDC, I wish I could remember who, said as far as developmental disorder labels are concerned, like ADHD, bipolar, borderline personality disorder, whatever, if there is something from that particular disorder's 'tool box' that will help meet you daughter's (and your) needs and help her get on in life, then use it!

I'm sorry, this is very stressful for you.

 

[Satinplum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zazupitts hiya! I don't know what you can do in the meantime before meeting the school officials, but i'd suggest printing this out (link below) and giving it to the teachers AND counselors at your school. It provides some gentle ideas about dealing with RAD kids...and will help you get on the same team about dealing with DSD. RAD kids tend to do "triangulation," ie... seeking out third parties and manipulating them against the primary parents...so nipping this on the bud will bring some sanity to your life. http://www.attachmentdisorder.net/Letter_to_Teacher.htm The site also has some great ideas for dealing with home issues as well...

There is information about this "letter" here:

http://www.nospank.net/njasp.htm

 

[bigeyes]

The truth about the letter is somewhere in between.

There are therapists who have done severe damage to RAD kids, but there are certain things you do have to remember to do, such as not playing into the histrionics and remembering to make eye contact when you are speaking with them, and some of the AP authorities on attachment disorders talk about that as well. I don't think it's necessarily a good thing for teachers to automatically assume the child is lying, though I can certainly understand why they might. Anyone who doesn't know one of these kids well does need to be warned not to fall for the triangulation and manipulation because they love nothing more than a new victim to play with, at least that's what I've seen from dsd. The more sympathy she can get from someone new for her wild stories and the more [email protected] she can stir up, the better.

Interestingly enough, some of the same people who are linked to that letter also are very pro the love and logic book, so it would seem to me either some things have been grossly misinterpreted or there are bits of truth to it provided you don't take it too far. It seems to me all they really mean in that letter is that people who don't know your child very well need to be aware that they are prone to lying and manipulating, and avoiding eye contact, for the most part. Those are huge issues in our house and from what I've read, with most attachment disorder kids. If I don't make eye contact, I don't hear you. And if you don't know me well enough to see through me, I can con you. I see it with dsd all the time.

It's frustrating because no matter what you do, someone finds fault with it, and there are some very scary people out there doing real harm. Yes, there probably are some bad therapists linked to the letter, but some of the attachment therapists many parents swear by as the best also cite that letter on their websites....so, you have to kind of judge for yourself.

 

[Theoretica]

The problem with it though Satinplum is there ARE kids who lie pathologically, have a propensity to fabricate abuse, triangulate mercilessly, create a crazymaking environment that drives everyone around them (specifically parents) to the brink of insanity...etc etc etc.

I had DD telling her teachers we locked her in her room over the summer, refused to allow her out even to eat with the family, and that we made them (she and her brother) steal food out of the pantry to eat it...I don't care WHAT you call her 'certain emotional disorders', but it was still hell to live through and the parent letter posted above described our life with her very accurately. I can't tell you how many times I've had to deal with CPS showing up and investigating a claim either SHE made herself or someone made on her behalf.

At the same time, it clearly states at the top of the letter that not all cases are this severe so I would HOPE parents use the idea of a parent letter judiciously. I have met many mamas of kids with RAD and my DD was over the TOP worse than any of them. I did meet with the teachers and discuss her 'issues' with them, especially when DD was coming home telling US the bus driver refused to drop her off ANYWHERE but the grocery store, but she told the SCHOOL we wouldn't 'allow' her home until dark so she HAD to be dropped at the grocery store in order to eat.

So, if calling it RAD makes it easier for people to identify certain groups of severe behaviors in children so we can all communicate than so be it.

I know this veered OT from the OP...sorry 'bout that....

:

 

[Theoretica]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigeyes Anyone who doesn't know one of these kids well does need to be warned not to fall for the triangulation and manipulation because they love nothing more than a new victim to play with, at least that's what I've seen from dsd. The more sympathy she can get from someone new for her wild stories and the more [email protected] she can stir up, the better.

My bold. This. Totally. I remember when DD got a job doing catering with some acquaintences of ours. Within DAYS she had them thinking we wouldn't feed her or her brother, we beat them 'carefully' so there weren't any marks, we told them since they were adopted they weren't REALLY our family

and they actually called me and offered to take her in...the poor dear...since they ADORED her and thought she was just FABULOUS. They asked why she couldn't babysit their kids??? Ummm...maybe because she'd hurt them and call CPS on YOU? Oh no worries though...within a few months she had 'earned their trust' and was handling money. That didn't last long!!!!

I think the hardest thing for me is all the years I spent thinking I was the only one who lived through this hell with DD. So I read posts like yours and think wow...what can I do to make sure this mama knows she isn't alone? Because THAT is the worst of it...holding on to your own sanity while struggling with their INsanity and feeling alone in the woods.

So you aren't alone

 

[bigeyes]

What's really killing me is watching dh cycle. He's going back to where he's making excuses for her again. I'm afraid she's going to have to really hurt someone else, get us sued, or end up in juvie before he gets it.

It irritates the [email protected] out of me because he's always coming down hard on ds if he does anything wrong, and he always harps on how dsd is a year younger than him so she shouldn't be expected to behave as well or do as much. I finally exploded and asked him if when she was 29 he would still be telling me 'well, ds is 30, so we can't expect as much from dsd' ?

Exactly how long will it be before she is expected to act like she's older than 3? How long before we don't excuse her for lying, stealing, repeating the same behaviors over and over and over again?

He keeps wanting to act like she's this poor baby, but she does things that are seriously twisted, and she's 5'2" tall and 160 pounds, so the characterization of her as a helpless infant gets old fast. She's put holes in the walls of our old house before and she's running around talking about getting in fights with other girls, but he still wants to view her as some helpless, frail thing, which she really has never, ever been.

I realize in many ways she has some arrested development, but she is by far not a helpless, tiny girl who needs protecting. If anything people need protecting from her.

 

[journeymom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigeyes So, for the next 2 weeks until I get professional advice, what should I do?

Keep coming here for sympathy, and to get stuff off your chest.

Is the councilor who's out for two weeks the school councilor, or is this a family therapist? You (and your dsd) deserve a therapist who is skilled in dealing with attachment disorders.

 

[bigeyes]

Quote:

Originally Posted by journeymom Keep coming here for sympathy, and to get stuff off your chest. Is the councilor who's out for two weeks the school councilor, or is this a family therapist? You (and your dsd) deserve a therapist who is skilled in dealing with attachment disorders.

This is the one we see for her disorder.

We went through hell finding anyone who knew anything about attachment disorders. We wasted a year and a half on Kaiser's mental health people only to find out they don't even recognize attachment disorders as a legitimate diagnosis. They kept trying to tell me I wasn't a good enough mother and letting her blow smoke up their @$$e$ every 2 weeks with promises to 'do better' while we wasted time and money as her behavior got worse and we lost valuable time. I spent months calling every attachment disorder specialist in the country trying to find someone who could help us and several times was advised to just give up and divorce to save myself and my ds because there were no specialists on the Big Island.
Every specialist listed for Hawaii on any attachment disorder site was either retired or had moved away when I called, or was on another island.

The way we found the one we see now was through the health department and works with the school system. She just happened to be at a meeting we had after having dsd evaluated for learning disabilities (after I fought the school district for 2 years) and she approached me after the meeting was over, telling me she believed she had an attachment disorder. I nearly cried, telling her I had been trying to get her diagnosed with an attachment disorder for over a year without success after fighting to get her into any kind of therapy for 4 years.

She was our last hope. Everyone I spoke to told us unless we moved to another state or another island there was nobody who could help us.

At this point I am starting to believe it's too late anyway. Lately I find myself thinking if I can just survive until she's 18 we can dole out her trust fund to pay for an apartment and she can just sink or swim on her own. I belonged to a support group for other moms of attachment disordered children and it was so depressing hearing some of them talk about how their older teens and adult offspring were continuing to act the same way and get into scrapes with the law. It doesn't give me a lot of hope that any of this is going to make a bit of difference.

 

[bumblebeeskies]

RAD and other attachment disorders are hard to deal with. I was adopted as an infant, and unfortunately ended up with an attachment disorder-though not as severe as RAD. I wasted six years in therapy, before I learned what was actually wrong with me, and that talk therapy doesn't help. As far as whether or not your daughter has BPD, while she isn't old enough to be diagnosed with that yet, it's really just the adult version of RAD.

I wanted to give the links to a couple online RAD support groups:

http://www.adsg.org/forum/
http://www.radzebra.org/ (had a yahoo list serve)

 

[bigeyes]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bumblebeeskies RAD and other attachment disorders are hard to deal with. I was adopted as an infant, and unfortunately ended up with an attachment disorder-though not as severe as RAD. I wasted six years in therapy, before I learned what was actually wrong with me, and that talk therapy doesn't help. As far as whether or not your daughter has BPD, while she isn't old enough to be diagnosed with that yet, it's really just the adult version of RAD. I wanted to give the links to a couple online RAD support groups: http://www.adsg.org/forum/ http://www.radzebra.org/ (had a yahoo list serve)

Can you give me any insight into what to say to her, or does it do any good at all to even talk? I feel like it's such a waste of time because she always says she's going to stop doing these things but she just comes up with more outrageous things to say and do.

I truly do not understand what she is getting out of this. Am I better off pretending I don't know she does these things?

 

[Labbemama]

(hugs) Mama,

I just wanted to say I have been there more often than I care to have been with my foster daughters, daughters, and caseload. This book has been a tremendous help to be in shaping my ideas about what the girls are facing, the relational aggression (aggression thru words rather than fists) and how to address it with the girls, other parents, and professionals. If you can find a copy of it, it's worth your time to read it. It even has sample conversations for making that difficult call to another parent. We tried it ourselves when dd was in 5th grade. DH made the call actually I was too Peeved to talk. But needless to say it resulted in a truce in a rumor-war.

The book is "Queen bees and Wannabees" by Rosalind Wiseman.

http://www.bookbrowse.com/reviews/in...ok_number=1400

There's another one called girl wars that might also be good for you to read.

 

[Mirzam]

I am constantly posting this resource which is really designed for kids with RAD, but certainly works with all children, Beyond Consequences, Logic and Control by Heather T Forbes.