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My DD (15) has her first opportunity to get college credit for a classes taken at her HS.

As her teacher is certified to teach dual enrollment math classes, she has the option to register and pay tuition for her Honors Trigonometry and Honors Pre-Calc classes that she is taking this year, earning her 6 credits at the 100 level.

She will also be taking AP Calc next year, with the option of dual enrollment for up to 8 credits at the 200 level (if she takes both AB and BC parts).

My understanding is there is little use paying for the 100 level credits, as she will have the option of taking Calc next year for dual enrollment credit. However, there are a few lingering questions: Is there a purpose/good reason to still get those 100 level credits, even if they essentially will be “cancelled” out the following year with 200 level credits? And as she currently has no idea where she will go to college, do we need to be concerned that any of or all of these won’t be accepted (for example, I was told by her teacher that one of our local state universities won’t accept the 200 level Calc credits, as they want their engineering students to take “their” Calc classes)? Would taking the AP Calc test(s) make more sense, and if so, then would getting the 100 level credits make any sense?

Can anyone with knowledge and/or experience help me? I'm trying not to over-think this! ;-)
 

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When my kids have made these decisions, one other factor they have thought about is this: if they are in a degree program in which everyone is starting together and 'bonding' as a group, such as in Calculus, do they really not want to be part of that? What if the program they are in really wants them to learn it their way?

I just haven't put much stock in the hype around college courses when you're in high school unless you are really clear what you want to do AND you know that your future school will accept those credits. There is so much pressure on high school kids these days and this seems to just be adding to it (at least in our school)>
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
When my kids have made these decisions, one other factor they have thought about is this: if they are in a degree program in which everyone is starting together and 'bonding' as a group, such as in Calculus, do they really not want to be part of that? What if the program they are in really wants them to learn it their way?

I just haven't put much stock in the hype around college courses when you're in high school unless you are really clear what you want to do AND you know that your future school will accept those credits. There is so much pressure on high school kids these days and this seems to just be adding to it (at least in our school)>

Thank you for you input!


She's very certain that she will being going to school for engineering. Whether or not schools she is interested in attending will accept them is unknown.


I agree that there is a lot of pressure on HS students. I tried to keep that in mind when helping DD make choices - she is one who can be both overwhelmed and under challenged at the same time in the academic setting. But in the end, the need to be challenged usually trumps overwhelmed for her. That being said, the courses, both this year and next, will look the same whether or not she registers for the DE credit. The only difference is whether or not it's worth the effort and money to get the credit. And as these courses are determined by her specialty HS course sequence, all of her friends will be taking the classes; some are going for the credit, others may not. I'm just trying to make sure that since she's doing all the coursework necessary to qualify for DE credit, that we make the right choice for her future.


In the end, it may not matter too much. She will take the DE Calc next year vs. AP, even at the risk of those credits not being accepted. Now to hurry up and make a final decision about this year's classes.
 

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I had the opposite experience as a student. I was told not to bother because you never know if they'll be counted. I went someplace they would have been, but I hadn't taken any. And that irked me.

I recommend calling several schools that are possibilities and asking if they accept that particular type of credit for that type of program.

As I remember it, the cost for AP and dual credit is significantly less than college courses. So they seem like a good bet to me.

I did take one or two that were extremely beneficial, but could have taken more.
 

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I'm sorry this is so long.


As her teacher is certified to teach dual enrollment math classes, she has the option to register and pay tuition for her Honors Trigonometry and Honors Pre-Calc classes that she is taking this year, earning her 6 credits at the 100 level.

She will also be taking AP Calc next year, with the option of dual enrollment for up to 8 credits at the 200 level (if she takes both AB and BC parts).

My understanding is there is little use paying for the 100 level credits, as she will have the option of taking Calc next year for dual enrollment credit. However, there are a few lingering questions: Is there a purpose/good reason to still get those 100 level credits, even if they essentially will be “cancelled” out the following year with 200 level credits?



If she is 100% sure she is going on to calc, then there isn't any reason to get the 100 level credits. Paying for those credits only makes sense for students who do not intend to pursue higher math. It really doesn't matter how she ends up doing calc, if she is doing calc at all, then she doesn't need the 100 credits.




And as she currently has no idea where she will go to college, do we need to be concerned that any of or all of these won’t be accepted (for example, I was told by her teacher that one of our local state universities won’t accept the 200 level Calc credits, as they want their engineering students to take “their” Calc classes)? Would taking the AP Calc test(s) make more sense, and if so, then would getting the 100 level credits make any sense?
Every university gets to decide their own deal. Some don't count any AP credits, but will accept community college classes. Some require certain scores on AP tests to count, but require different scores for different tests. It can be pretty complicated. A college program that requires THEIR calc II class is going to require it regardless of how the student already did calc II. At this stage in the game, I think the best bet is to hedge your bets by getting the college credits (either through AP or community college classes) that *may* count for her major at schools she *most likely* will apply to.


Most engineering programs not only accept calc I, but they assume students have it. Many engineering programs cannot be completed in 4 years unless students have already completed calc 1, and some engineering programs REQUIRE it for admission.


Also, the idea of not taking calc II because she might need to retake it seems short sighted to me for a couple of reasons:
1. It might count.
2. Many in her future cohort will take it. Trust me -- there are lots of seniors taking calc II or even differential equations or even linear algebra. And the more difficult the math they are taking while in high school, the greater the odds that they will go to a university where it doesn't count. The students getting into those highly selective programs are working their butts off in high school. You only *get* to go to a school that doesn't count them if you have already proven you can do them. It's a bit ironic.
3. Even if it doesn't count, it will give her a solid foundation for the version of it taught at her university.
4. If she is serious about engineering, she should always take the most challenging math classes available to her to develop her mind. (the credit is a side point).

When my kids have made these decisions, one other factor they have thought about is this: if they are in a degree program in which everyone is starting together and 'bonding' as a group, such as in Calculus, do they really not want to be part of that? What if the program they are in really wants them to learn it their way?

I disagree with this advice based on attending lectures for future engineering majors at our state university. If a teen wants to be an engineer, they need to be taking tough math classes. The problem isn't that they will be ahead if they do, it is that they will be behind if they don't.

I just haven't put much stock in the hype around college courses when you're in high school unless you are really clear what you want to do AND you know that your future school will accept those credits.

yeah, I used to feel the same way. But what I see happening for my DD (who is a senior will graduate from highschool with around 45 college credits) is that her classes are smaller than the usual classes, taught by amazing teachers, and she is getting an in depth education. We don't put pressure on her. She is very bright and very hard working. Her classes give her a place to thrive. (I would never pressure a child to do what she has done of her own free will).


Also, if one believes in a liberal education, then taking challenging courses in fields from literature to economics to science to math is a good thing, regardless of whether the students gets to count all of them toward both high school and college. The courses are their own reward.

She's very certain that she will being going to school for engineering. .. .

I suggest checking out your state universities' programs for high school students. My DD did an "engineering camp" where she got to experience all 13 types of engineering offered at the uni, learn 3-D modeling, experience college life for a week, and, the best spent hour of the whole week -- attend a lecture on how prepare to be an engineering major while still in high school.

I recommend calling several schools that are possibilities and asking if they accept that particular type of credit for that type of program.


The advice at my DD's very good high school is:
1. Get the credit for college algebra if you plan on ending math with college algebra. Don't get it if you plan on going on in math.
2. Take the AP tests for all the classes you can until your senior year, because you really don't know where you will end up. And they *may* count.
3. At the end of your senior year, only take AP tests if you know you are going on to a school that accepts those credits. Otherwise, it's just a waste of $91.


I think that for most students for most classes, either the community college/dual enrollment option OR the AP option flows better with their school. My DD's take on it is that AP credits are dependent on how you do on ONE test, so if you are sick that day or your car won't start or whatever, you can get screwed. But community college/dual enrollment classes are graded on multiple tests/assignments/projects over a period of time, so reflect more of what you've actually done. Yet, her AP classes have been taught to a higher standard than most community college classes.
 

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Everything Linda said. Fully agree. Great point about those classes in high school being the high quality classes. And even if someone is going to take the class anyway and is just considering not taking the test, I still agree that taking the test is the best bet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
I'm sorry this is so long.

Thanks for your long reply!

[/quote] If she is 100% sure she is going on to calc, then there isn't any reason to get the 100 level credits. Paying for those credits only makes sense for students who do not intend to pursue higher math. It really doesn't matter how she ends up doing calc, if she is doing calc at all, then she doesn't need the 100 credits. [/QUOTE]


[/quote]Every university gets to decide their own deal. Some don't count any AP credits, but will accept community college classes. Some require certain scores on AP tests to count, but require different scores for different tests. It can be pretty complicated. A college program that requires THEIR calc II class is going to require it regardless of how the student already did calc II. At this stage in the game, I think the best bet is to hedge your bets by getting the college credits (either through AP or community college classes) that *may* count for her major at schools she *most likely* will apply to.[/QUOTE]



Yes, that’s the crap shoot DE and AP are; I get that.


Most engineering programs not only accept calc I, but they assume students have it. Many engineering programs cannot be completed in 4 years unless students have already completed calc 1, and some engineering programs REQUIRE it for admission.
As required by her HS specialty engineering program, she is required to complete AP Calc AB. They do also offer AP Calc BC. She will take both of these next year, using one of her electives to take BC. But she’ll take it for DE, not AP.

[/quote]Also, the idea of not taking calc II because she might need to retake it seems short sighted to me for a couple of reasons:
1. It might count.
2. Many in her future cohort will take it. Trust me -- there are lots of seniors taking calc II or even differential equations or even linear algebra. And the more difficult the math they are taking while in high school, the greater the odds that they will go to a university where it doesn't count. The students getting into those highly selective programs are working their butts off in high school. You only *get* to go to a school that doesn't count them if you have already proven you can do them. It's a bit ironic.
3. Even if it doesn't count, it will give her a solid foundation for the version of it taught at her university.
4. If she is serious about engineering, she should always take the most challenging math classes available to her to develop her mind. (the credit is a side point). [/QUOTE]


It was never contemplated that DD wouldn’t take calc II. She is only *required* for her HS program to do calc I, but will take calc II as well. I’ve become well versed in the irony of students taking AP/DE classes to show *rigor*, regardless of the ability to gain actual college credit. And that’s beside the fact that DD really needs that challenged to not check out and not want to go to school. Here’s to hoping all the effort and work actually get her real college credit!

[/quote]yeah, I used to feel the same way. But what I see happening for my DD (who is a senior will graduate from highschool with around 45 college credits) is that her classes are smaller than the usual classes, taught by amazing teachers, and she is getting an in depth education. We don't put pressure on her. She is very bright and very hard working. Her classes give her a place to thrive. (I would never pressure a child to do what she has done of her own free will). [/QUOTE]

I don’t know how much all the AP and DE classes will add up to in the end of HS, at least college credit-wise. But taking these classes are HER choice (as well as required by her HS Engineering program, at least the math and science – history and English can be just regular ol’ classes). I’m going to recommend to her to take DE when possible and hope for the best where colleges accept the credits are concerned. Also, I’m going to encourage taking AP tests (and her school frowns on signing up for the classes and not taking the test), but as long tests like that do DD in, in terms of her ability to score well (anxiety and blood sugar issues – NOT due to inadequate teaching or prep), I’m not sure whether or not the end result will be worth the effort (lots of stress with the potential of scoring too low to get out of or gain credits for college classes). For example, last year, she received an A for her coursework in AP European History, but only received a 3 on the AP test.

[/quote]Also, if one believes in a liberal education, then taking challenging courses in fields from literature to economics to science to math is a good thing, regardless of whether the students gets to count all of them toward both high school and college. The courses are their own reward. [/QUOTE]


I agree with this, as DD is all about the academics. She gets very excited to learn new things, and her friends just shake their heads at her enthusiasm about starting the new school year and new classes.


[/quote]I suggest checking out your state universities' programs for high school students. My DD did an "engineering camp" where she got to experience all 13 types of engineering offered at the uni, learn 3-D modeling, experience college life for a week, and, the best spent hour of the whole week -- attend a lecture on how prepare to be an engineering major while still in high school. [/QUOTE]


That is a good suggestion. She has already essentially completed the equivalent of 3 college engineering classes (Project Lead the Way courses, getting 9 credits through RIT), she’s getting experience with some types of engineering already. It would be good for her to experience college life for a week, and the lecture would be beneficial too.


[/quote]The advice at my DD's very good high school is:
1. Get the credit for college algebra if you plan on ending math with college algebra. Don't get it if you plan on going on in math.
2. Take the AP tests for all the classes you can until your senior year, because you really don't know where you will end up. And they *may* count.
3. At the end of your senior year, only take AP tests if you know you are going on to a school that accepts those credits. Otherwise, it's just a waste of $91. [/QUOTE]


Given that DD is young for her grade, her trajectory to college is beginning to look different than for her fellow HS students. She's pretty adamant that she wants to go out of state for university; but in her current emotional state, and also with the need to gain some maturity, she's not going away anywhere for college anytime soon. We are still going to go look at schools, and will still have her apply to schools she is interested in and see what happens. If she gets accepted to a favored school, we'll try to defer, if possible. Given the likelihood of her having a year (or maybe more, who knows) between HS and going away to college while she attend CC, I don’t know how DE for ANY class (even the 100 level math classes) factors into this picture for her.


[/quote]I think that for most students for most classes, either the community college/dual enrollment option OR the AP option flows better with their school. My DD's take on it is that AP credits are dependent on how you do on ONE test, so if you are sick that day or your car won't start or whatever, you can get screwed. But community college/dual enrollment classes are graded on multiple tests/assignments/projects over a period of time, so reflect more of what you've actually done. Yet, her AP classes have been taught to a higher standard than most community college classes.[/QUOTE]




Yeah, I see what your DD means; as I stated earlier, the one day, LOOOONNNNGGGG AP test(s) isn’t/aren’t the best way for DD to show what she knows/has learned. But as my DD is fortunate to be able to have those quality AP classes, and have the option for DE with the HS teachers too, it can be the best of both worlds.
 

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Also, I’m going to encourage taking AP tests (and her school frowns on signing up for the classes and not taking the test), but as long tests like that do DD in, in terms of her ability to score well (anxiety and blood sugar issues – NOT due to inadequate teaching or prep), I’m not sure whether or not the end result will be worth the effort (lots of stress with the potential of scoring too low to get out of or gain credits for college classes). For example, last year, she received an A for her coursework in AP European History, but only received a 3 on the AP test.





She might find that her stamina improves in the next year or two. These tests seemed like really big deal on the first round for my DD, but they weren't that big of a deal this year. Some high school require the tests, or give students a hard time if they don't take them, but they are doing that for their own stats and it really doesn't have anything to do with what is best for the students.



I agree with this, as DD is all about the academics. She gets very excited to learn new things, and her friends just shake their heads at her enthusiasm about starting the new school year and new classes.




She might end up with some social drama then -- her friends may not support the amount of time she needs to study, and she may meet other teens who she has more in common with.
Given that DD is young for her grade, her trajectory to college is beginning to look different than for her fellow HS students. She's pretty adamant that she wants to go out of state for university; but in her current emotional state, and also with the need to gain some maturity, she's not going away anywhere for college anytime soon. We are still going to go look at schools, and will still have her apply to schools she is interested in and see what happens. If she gets accepted to a favored school, we'll try to defer, if possible. Given the likelihood of her having a year (or maybe more, who knows) between HS and going away to college while she attend CC, I don’t know how DE for ANY class (even the 100 level math classes) factors into this picture for her.

How young for grade? My DD is a bit young for grade (a summer birthday, so she'll graduate at 17 and turn 18 before starting her freshman year). At this stage of the game, though, it really isn't a factor for us. CC wouldn't make any sense for her. She's already done the equivalent of the first two years.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
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She might find that her stamina improves in the next year or two. These tests seemed like really big deal on the first round for my DD, but they weren't that big of a deal this year. Some high school require the tests, or give students a hard time if they don't take them, but they are doing that for their own stats and it really doesn't have anything to do with what is best for the students.


Thank you for that! I sure hope so, but I'm not so sure. She's still in a delicate place; we've had a few anxiety driven incidents already, and we are less than a month into the school year. Our expectations of what she is capable of accomplishing has diminished over the past 6 months. She has a pretty tough academic load, and we are having to hold the line with her about her involvement with out of/after school activities, so as to not have her overscheduled. The school has them sign an agreement that they will follow through with the AP test - but her mental health will be the determining factor.



I agree with this, as DD is all about the academics. She gets very excited to learn new things, and her friends just shake their heads at her enthusiasm about starting the new school year and new classes.




She might end up with some social drama then -- her friends may not support the amount of time she needs to study, and she may meet other teens who she has more in common with.


She's with those with which she has a lot in common; while not technically a gifted specialty HS, she's with a lot of smart, gifted kids. While all are smart, some are coasting by, and some are working hard to get ahead (for example, one of her friends in her same class had to meet with a private SAT coach the day after school ended last year - so very driven, or at least his parents are).





Given that DD is young for her grade, her trajectory to college is beginning to look different than for her fellow HS students. She's pretty adamant that she wants to go out of state for university; but in her current emotional state, and also with the need to gain some maturity, she's not going away anywhere for college anytime soon. We are still going to go look at schools, and will still have her apply to schools she is interested in and see what happens. If she gets accepted to a favored school, we'll try to defer, if possible. Given the likelihood of her having a year (or maybe more, who knows) between HS and going away to college while she attend CC, I don’t know how DE for ANY class (even the 100 level math classes) factors into this picture for her.

How young for grade? My DD is a bit young for grade (a summer birthday, so she'll graduate at 17 and turn 18 before starting her freshman year). At this stage of the game, though, it really isn't a factor for us. CC wouldn't make any sense for her. She's already done the equivalent of the first two years.

She will graduate as a newly minted 17 year old (March birthday, graduates May), so a bit away from 18 by the time she would be starting college. Going away to college, looking at this point in time anyway, wouldn't make sense for her. But we are actively working with her to help her make progress in that area (i.e. teaching life skills). She will take the time to take classes, but also develop another area of interest to her: drawing. And try to figure out how to do engineering and art.
 

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Dual Enrollment (& AP) Options

You may already have all of the answers you need, but I'll insert my opinion anyway. I graduated recently in 2013. I took DC American Literature and it wasn't accepted at my University. I went to a private school, so luckily all my parents paid for was the DC exam, and since my school was so small, the dual credit class was the same as the AP class that I'd already be in so there wasn't much to lose. Even still, it didn't carry over. So if you have to pay for it, I'd say forget it.


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She will graduate as a newly minted 17 year old (March birthday, graduates May), so a bit away from 18 by the time she would be starting college. Going away to college, looking at this point in time anyway, wouldn't make sense for her.
I assume there are other reasons besides age that you're considering the delay? Because my kids who have left home at before 18 have done fabulously. And in their case they managed without the support of a university community and a college dorm. They had to shop and cook and commute and keep house, as well as deal with school, advocate for themselves with instructors and administration and landlords. When mom and dad aren't hundreds or thousands of miles away and they have only themselves to rely on, it's amazing what a 16 or 17-year-old can do.

I'm guessing there are other things about your dd that are making you cautious. But if it's only her age, I'd encourage you to think again.

Miranda
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I assume there are other reasons besides age that you're considering the delay? Because my kids who have left home at before 18 have done fabulously. And in their case they managed without the support of a university community and a college dorm. They had to shop and cook and commute and keep house, as well as deal with school, advocate for themselves with instructors and administration and landlords. When mom and dad aren't hundreds or thousands of miles away and they have only themselves to rely on, it's amazing what a 16 or 17-year-old can do.

I'm guessing there are other things about your dd that are making you cautious. But if it's only her age, I'd encourage you to think again.

Miranda

Yes, it's more than just her age. If you'd asked me a year or so ago what I thought would happen, I would believe she would be ready to handle it. But over the last year or so, she's had some big issues come up, which have caused her to be unable to be and/or do all the things your children are able to do for themselves: shop, cook, clean, advocate for themselves, etc. - all things that seem so simple, but are not to her. For example, she is on a very restrictive diet, yet is only now showing interest in learning to fend for herself, and she has pretty extreme anxiety at times, to the detriment of her functioning optimally.


She is better now than she was 6 months ago, but her inability to function consistently on all levels peeks out occasionally, just enough to concern me as to how she'd handle things without a steady hand guiding her. She needs more time to mature in the day to day life skills that one needs to function on their own. She's just not there yet, and I have no idea when she'll get there. But I hope that it will come sooner than later for her.
 

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It sounds like she has 2 years of high school left, and she could change a great deal during that time. Of all the things you mention, the thing that I would push the most with her is self advocacy, because you cannot advocate for her in college, even in community college. She has to do it for herself. Even if she qualifies for accommodations in college under the ADA, she must advocate for herself.


My older DD has anxiety issues as part of being on the autism spectrum, and we limited to her in state schools. She can go out of state for grad school if she wants, but realistically, she's more likely to be successful now at an in state uni because there is less pressure and more support.


Also, if your DD doesn't have a big turn around on how she copes with testing, those out of state schools that don't take AP credit most likely aren't a great choice for her anyway. She needs a less high-stakes, less pressured path, not an uber competitive one. Sometimes, when people say they don't want the thing that they can realistically do, and they say they want something MORE, it isn't because they are rejecting the realistic option, but rather that they are afraid that they will fail at it. It's more fun to daydream about something big than to face the nitty gritty of doing what seems ordinary, but actually scares the crap out of you.
 

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Talked to health professional, they said they couldn't accurately get results at this stage but looks like it was a miscarriage :(
 
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