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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm taking Anatomy and we are on the immune system chapter. I am learning all about how antibodies are made. Fascinating stuff. I can't help but to think of you all as I'm learning.<br><br>
I totally get why people are against the harmful preservatives and other controversial things that make up the serum of the vaccine. I understand the reasoning that we have too many vaccines for too many diseases, some of which have a low risk for the general population. I further understand that it's not good to expose a child to so many pathogens at once like they do with shots-- giving 4 or more shots at one time.<br><br>
What I don't understand is why people have an objection to the artificial exposure of antigens of very harmful diseases (polio, meningitis, HPV) that enable the body to create a defense against these things and save lives.<br><br>
How is this any different from exposing a child to chickenpox through a chickenpox party, where it's an artificially created environment. I doubt that in real life you would find so many children exposed at the same time to chickenpox. If someone had polio, would you take your child to a polio party?<br><br>
In a primary exposure to a disease, the body usually relies on <i>non-specific</i> defenses to destroy the infected cells that are sending out distress signals. As they are fighting off the virus they create memory cells that will quickly recognize a second exposure to the same virus. I just don't see what the big deal is in how the child is exposed to the virus (or bacteria), as long as their bodies are able to create the memory cells to defend them more quickly the next time they are exposed to it.<br><br>
How do you feel about allergy shots? The person is injected with increasing concentrations of the allergen so that their body's secondary response becomes faster at disposing of the antigens before they have a chance to cause an allergic reaction?<br><br>
How do you feel about the RhoGam shot? (Artifically created antibodies are injected into mom so that she doesn't have a chance to create her own antibodies against future babies).<br><br>
What about antibodies that pass from mother to child through breastmilk and the placenta?<br><br>
I don't by any means intend to start a debate. I just want to know <i>your point of view.</i> I'm studying to be a nurse and I want to be able to respect people's decisions by understanding fully where they are coming from.<br><br>
Thanks. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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Because the immune response created through vaccination is a DIFFERENT response than that created through exposure. And of course some things you mention are not simple- meningitis- you can't vaccinate against "the" antigen that causes meningitis, because there are countless things that cause it. In that case you are eliminating a few select things which leaves the system with a vacuum that is quickly filled by a different bacteria.<br><br>
Also, statistically serious cases of polio are VERY rare (if we're including that in serious diseases).<br><br>
Someone else with a better scientific vocabulary can explain the immune response differences. But I've read enough to understand that they *are* different types of responses.<br><br>
-Angela
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>USAmma</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10709844"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">How do you feel about allergy shots? The person is injected with increasing concentrations of the allergen so that their body's secondary response becomes faster at disposing of the antigens before they have a chance to cause an allergic reaction?<br><br>
How do you feel about the RhoGam shot? (Artifically created antibodies are injected into mom so that she doesn't have a chance to create her own antibodies against future babies).<br><br>
What about antibodies that pass from mother to child through breastmilk and the placenta?</div>
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Answering additions <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1"><br><br>
Personally I think allergy shots are a load of hooey and would never do them <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"> Everyone I've known that does them still has crazy allergies. I think they're a brilliant way to make money.<br><br>
RhoGam I think is a very personal decision. If I were - and making that decision, I might opt against it (I would NOT do one during pregnancy, would consider it after birth if the child was +, but I don't know for sure I'd do it)<br><br>
Antibodies that pass from mother to child are DESIGNED to do that. They've evolved that way over millions and millions of years.<br><br>
Vaccines are a BRAND NEW idea (in the picture of human history) It's far too soon to know how they really work and the long-term implications.<br><br>
-Angela
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for your reply! I would love to know more about this on a technical level.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Because the immune response created through vaccination is a DIFFERENT response than that created through exposure.</td>
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I guess what I saw in India with all the polio victims really made an impression on me that it can be a very serious disease. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"> It just makes me wonder if anyone would expose their child to the live, unaltered virus on purpose, or would they just take strong preventive measures against exposure instead. Like, would they be thinking, "Great! I can expose my child to this and cross it off my list! I will just give them lots of Vit C first so they can fight it well" vs "I am going to keep my child indoors when we travel to India so they won't be exposed to this."
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Personally I think allergy shots are a load of hooey and would never do them Everyone I've known that does them still has crazy allergies. I think they're a brilliant way to make money.</td>
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They actually have helped me quite a bit, but it was not the miracle cure I had hoped for with all the time/energy spent on going through the series. I went from very severe reactions to certain pollens (swollen shut eyes, skin rashes, asthma), to just feeling like I have a cold. I still take allergy and asthma meds during pollen season.<br><br>
The sublingual immonotherapy was actually way more effective.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>USAmma</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10709943"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Thanks for your reply! I would love to know more about this on a technical level.</div>
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If you google for articles by Hilary Butler you might find some information on that. I know she's written on it.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">I guess what I saw in India with all the polio victims really made an impression on me that it can be a very serious disease. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"> It just makes me wonder if anyone would expose their child to the live, unaltered virus on purpose, or would they just take strong preventive measures against exposure instead. Like, would they be thinking, "Great! I can expose my child to this and cross it off my list! I will just give them lots of Vit C first so they can fight it well" vs "I am going to keep my child indoors when we travel to India so they won't be exposed to this."</td>
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Well, personally I wouldn't take my kid to a "polio party" <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1"> but if it was around I wouldn't freak out. I would do what I could to keep my child's immune system healthy (good food, vitamins etc) and I would assure access to clean water- a luxury that sadly everyone does not have <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><br><br>
Polio transmission is fecal/oral. It's a stomach virus. And statistically, a HUGE percentage of the time that's how it presents and that's the end of it. I don't remember the date, but historically the first "epidemic" of paralytic polio was actually very recent. MANY viruses can cause the type of paralysis that we think of as "polio" and most "polio" cases are never confirmed as being caused by the polio virus itself.<br><br>
-Angela
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks sooo much for your replies. I am off to do some internet searching! :)<br><br>
Would love to hear from others too (although it was great hearing from you, Angela. How are you doing?)
 

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I would not personally expose my child to polio. if I was travelling somewhere like India, I would make sure my child had had 2 doses of IPV plus one of OPV.<br><br>
I agree with alegna about allergy shots-"load of hooey" is how I would describe them too!<br><br>
RHogam - I refused it when I was pregnant. I would probably have got it when ds was born had he been Rh+. He wasn't though. Next time I will probably refuse too as I think my next one will be my last! (only about 20% of mothers are sensitized though after having a Rh+ baby so the odds would be on the mothers side)<br><br>
My main issue with vaccines <i>is</i> the preservatives, aluminium especially. I also think that some mild diseases are best got when young as natural immunity is longer lasting and they can be more dangerous as an adult (rubella, mumps, chickenpox etc.)<br><br>
I am studying to be a nurse too!<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wave.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wave">
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>roxyrox</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10710112"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
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I am studying to be a nurse too!<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wave.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wave"></div>
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Good luck!<br><br>
What's IPV and OPV?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>USAmma</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10709844"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
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How is this any different from exposing a child to chickenpox through a chickenpox party, where it's an artificially created environment. I doubt that in real life you would find so many children exposed at the same time to chickenpox. If someone had polio, would you take your child to a polio party?<br><br><br><br>
What about antibodies that pass from mother to child through breastmilk and the placenta?<br></div>
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But everyone used to get measles, chicken pox, etc so they were all getting exposed (and then moms passed down antibodies when nursing to protect infants).<br><br>
Everything I've read says those of us vaccinated against measles no longer pass on antibodies to our children. I guess that is true of CP too. Maybe others have more info or links.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>USAmma</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10710168"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Good luck!<br><br>
What's IPV and OPV?</div>
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Thanks! IPV is inactivated polio vaccine, OPV is oral polio vaccine (which is live). The OPV is more effective. I would do two doses of IPV first to prevent the (albeit extremely tiny!) risk of contracting polio <i>from</i> OPV!
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>USAmma</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10710087"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Thanks sooo much for your replies. I am off to do some internet searching! :)<br><br>
Would love to hear from others too (although it was great hearing from you, Angela. How are you doing?)</div>
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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin"> Great, thanks!<br><br>
-Angela
 

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Regarding diseases like CP, measles, mumps, rubella, etc.: the difference between artificially stimulating the immune system with a vaccine and stimulating it naturally with the virus is that, in the first case, immunity is rarely life-long, while in the second case it is.<br><br>
Unless everyone gets boosters every few years as adults (and, seriously, do you know any adults who do?), vaccination moves the disease from the relatively "safe" period of childhood to the more dangerous period of adulthood. So, for example, if your CP vax wears off, you're much more likely to get shingles if exposed as an adult, while you will likely not get shingles if you had the natural virus.<br><br>
I think you need to distinguish the artificiality of the mechanism of exposure from the artificiality of the situation in which one is exposed. In other words, yes, a "pox party" is setting up an "artificial situation," but the virus is still the naturally occurring, wild virus, and the body deals with it as such (and one only has to set up that "artificial" situation because the introduction of the vaccine has made it more uncommon for people to catch the virus naturally; in the olden days--i.e., a couple of decades ago--everyone got CP). Getting the vaccine is artificial b/c your body does NOT deal with it the way it deals with the natural disease--hence the problem of immunity wearing off.
 

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If you want to leave out all the junk here is my beef. I got this from Dr. Tenpenny in case you want to look it up in her book. Please note, I am not into science so if something looks off I’m sorry.<br><br>
So IgG levels in the full term infant are similar to maternal levels as due to transplacental transfer.<br>
No other class of immunoglobulin passes the placental barrier, including IgE.<br>
Infants ONLY develop IgE in response to stimuli. Vaccines induce Th2 cytolines, suppress Th1 cytolines and induce IgE development in children.<br>
Elevated levels of IgE antibodies are associated with atopic diseases like allergies, asthma and aczema.<br>
Some children with atopic diseases have plasma IgE levels 5 to 20 times than normal.<br>
Infancy is a high risk period for allergic sensitization since natural defense mechanisms are not fully developed.<br><br>
I just feel it’s best to let the body respond to the antigen naturally. I don’t think it’s safe to directly inject an antigen. It should have a chance to work through all the defenses first. If I leave it to nature by not vaxing then my son has a good chance to fight off the illness and not cause complications. If I vax him, I know 100% that I am exposing him to risks which include autism, ADD, allergies, asthma, death, seizures, and the list goes on.<br><br>
I am also a strong believer that my child should contract illnesses naturally and become immune for life. However, I would not take him to a polio party. Polio is off my radar because we live in the US and have no plans to travel to countries where polio is alive and well.
 

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I'm continuing my education in nursing and just finished up the immunology section in an A&P course. What struck me was that several times in the chapter I read things like, "Presumably, this is how it works..." "It's thought that the process goes like this..." etc. Basically saying, "Hey, we don't really know."<br><br>
But let's go ahead and mess around with it anyway. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="thumbs up"><br><br>
I also think there's a big difference between being exposed to a pathogen naturally (i.e. mucous membrane exposure) and being injected with a pathogen. I know there have been several discussions about this before, it's just one of the things that strike me about vaccination as so unnatural.
 

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As a case of rhogam failure, I have a pretty jaded view of it.<br><br>
I had 3 shots of it during my first pg, all prenatally. I had my last shot around 32 weeks. Coincidentally, we lost our first baby at term for unknown reasons but the pathologist noticed some weird immune reaction within the placenta (a massive inflammation that cut off the blood flow) and based on my DD's IUGR rates, this started happening around 33-34 weeks...hmmm...I think that no one ever knows how someone's immune system will react at any given time to an injected substance (especially one made from the plasma of possibly hundreds of donors and one that could contain CJD and any other number of theoretical viruses).<br><br>
Somehow I ended up sensitized anyway, even with all the shots done according to protocol by health care professionals who "know their stuff." Since then, I've met dozens of other moms who are cases of rhogam failure. Funny how that isn't mentioned much.<br><br>
There's a link in my siggie about rhogam and another thread in the Birth and Beyond forum. The one in my siggie delves into some of the problem aspects of rhogam and its mechanism for supposedly preventing sensitization.<br><br>
I would never do a rhogam shot prenatally. It is still a class C drug and if I recall correctly from what the manufacturer info stated, it was not evaluated on humans, just animal studies. If it were my first pg and I wanted 2+ more children, I might consider it postnatally. But then again, I might just skip it. Having been through one successful sensitized pregnancy and almost through another, I don't see sensitization as the big boogeyman it's made out to be.
 

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To make it brief 'cause I'm nak...<br><br>
There are two "arms" of the immune response (I'm surprised this isn't mentioned in your book) humoral and cellular.<br><br>
In a natural infection, these two DO work together to manage the "invader". The humoral system attacks the "invader" outside body cells and the cellular immune system attacks infected body cells in order to clear the "invader"from the body.<br><br>
It is acknowledged that during vaccination, the focus is on creation of antibodies...purely a humoral response. The cellular system is not as stimulated (thus acting out of balance)...thus resulting in what can only be called an inbalanced response.<br><br>
So, does this prime the individual's system to react in a predominately Th2 response due to those repeated stimulations in early life? Does this result in immune systems being set in atopic response mode?<br><br>
If so, you could logically follow that if said immune system is primed to respond in overwhelmingly Th2 response mode...then overcoming illnesses would be severely diminished. Or any other "bug" that may come along during the process of the vaccination priming an overwhelmingly humeral response.<br><br>
This is part of the reason that some people don't vax.<br><br>
Maternal antibody transfer is the way we are made. It's SUPPOSED to happen.<br><br>
I don't get your reference to chickenpox parties as an artificial environment. That statement seems odd. Did you not have chickenpox? Did you not get it from someone else, presumably at school? Was that an artificial environment?<br><br>
When the doctors can assure me that my vaccinated child will be safe from vax reactions AND guarantee my child will not still get what they were vaxxed for, then we can have a real discussion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">But everyone used to get measles, chicken pox, etc so they were all getting exposed (and then moms passed down antibodies when nursing to protect infants).<br><br>
Everything I've read says those of us vaccinated against measles no longer pass on antibodies to our children. I guess that is true of CP too. Maybe others have more info or links.</td>
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From what I understand, the antibodies only live a short time. So while they do protect the infant while nursing, after mom's antibodies die off the infant has no long-term protection against those pathogens because their own cells are not making them long-term. I think that's also why breastfeeding can delay allergies but not prevent them over a lifetime.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
attachedmamaof3, your words in bold . .<br><br><b>To make it brief 'cause I'm nak...<br><br>
There are two "arms" of the immune response (I'm surprised this isn't mentioned in your book) humeral and cellular.<br><br>
In a natural infection, these two DO work together to manage the "invader". The humeral system attacks the "invader" outside body cells and the cellular immune system attacks infected body cells in order to clear the "invader"from the body.</b><br><br>
Yep, those are both mentioned. I'm still studying that chapter so I'm not an expert on this stuff (that's partly why I am asking questions here with people who have put more time into learning about it). <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br><br>
From what I understand both cellular and humeral systems depend on the processing of antigens to function properly. In the first exposure to it, they attack it because it's a "non-self" cell, not part of the body or something is weird about it (cancer cell), or the infected body cell is sending off distress signals. As you stated, cellular system is cell-to-cell combat. Humeral cells release antibodies, which then bind to and trigger attack of infected cells.<br><br>
Both systems create memory cells that can ID the antigens and have a faster response the second time the person is exposed to the pathogen.<br><br><b>It is acknowledged that during vaccination, the focus is on creation of antibodies...purely a humeral response. The cellular system is not as stimulated (thus acting out of balance)...thus resulting in what can only be called an inbalanced response.</b><br><br>
Ah, I see!<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/lightbulb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Lightbulb">: If artificial exposure only creates a humoral response, this could certainly not be as strong of a protective response to the disease.<br><br>
But how is that different from a natural exposure to something? Wouldn't both kinds of exposure create memory cells and antibodies? I'm a little confused about this would work.<br><br><b>So, does this prime the individual's system to react in a predominately Th2 response due to those repeated stimulations in early life? Does this result in immune systems being set in atopic response mode?<br><br>
If so, you could logically follow that if said immune system is primed to respond in overwhelmingly Th2 response mode...then overcoming illnesses would be severely diminished. Or any other "bug" that may come along during the process of the vaccination priming an overwhelmingly humeral response.<br><br>
This is part of the reason that some people don't vax.</b><br><br>
I can see how repeated exposures would definitely make the immune response a lot stronger than a one or two time shot. Especially over a lifetime. I got a rubella shot as a child, but when I was pg my titre showed no immunity to it. It must have worn off or didn't take in the first place.<br><br>
Maternal antibody transfer is the way we are made. It's SUPPOSED to happen.<br><b><br>
I don't get your reference to chickenpox parties as an artificial environment. That statement seems odd. Did you not have chickenpox? Did you not get it from someone else, presumably at school? Was that an artificial environment?</b><br><br>
Actually I got it at a chickenpox party. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"> Along with my cousin, brother, and some other kids. My poor aunt-- she had not had cp before and got it with us and she was terribly sick. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><br><br><b>When the doctors can assure me that my vaccinated child will be safe from vax reactions AND guarantee my child will not still get what they were vaxxed for, then we can have a real discussion.</b><br><br>
I agree, that if the experts can't tell you all the answers for sure then you have a right to question it. I totally respect that and will continue to respect it as a future nurse.
 
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