Oh honey, I don't have any advice but I couldn't read and not post a
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I will send you a PM
I will send you a PM
Emotional Abuse
I have been hesitant to post in a public place but I would like some opinions. I have been married for 12 years to DH. He is emotionally abusive and very controlling and manipulative and has been for some time (probably has been the whole marriage but it took me this long to figure it out.) In the outside world he is very well respected and loved by many people. It's so weird how he can say the meanest nastiest things to me and turn around and be the nicest, most charming person to other people. Things have been really, really bad lately. We have been seeing a pastor about 90 miles away who has helped a great deal. A couple of weeks ago the pastor finally told my husband that my husband needed some more professional help with his "inner turmoil". My husband agreed to do it and he has made one phone call to see someone but that didn't work out. Anytime I inquire about him calling someone he tells me that it's none of my business and I need to stop being "crazy" (he has been doing this lately---accusing me of being the one that's crazy. he will say things--insults, whatever--and when I bring it up later he tells me that he never said that and tells me I must be the crazy one.) So, I'm basically not "allowed" to have anythign to do with his counseling. He is now saying that he is going to go through our insurance company but in the meantime I get crap for asking about it (I only ask because days go by and he never mentions anything about it)
The thing is, that he absolutely denies the fact that he is abusive. Many other people (mostly pastors) have been involved in this situation and although many have said "abuse" to me privately, they have never (as far as I can tell) said this to my husband. He gets very, very angry when the subject is brought up. As far as he knows, he is going counseling to work on some "anger" issues and that's it.
How is he ever going to stop abusing me if he won't even admit he has a problem? How can I know that the counselor will be able to figure this out? (In the past he has made it very clear he won't tell me what the counseling sessions are like.)
I am his enemy and he treats me like I am a constant threat to him. I do not think he loves me. When we go through cycles of him saying he's sorry and things get better (for short periods of time) I have gotten to the point where I don't believe him when he says he loves me.
Things got really bad a few days ago and I told him I was leaving him (at the time we were visiting family a couple of hours away. He insisted I drive him home that night so I did.) After I dropped him off I started having serious doubts about leaving him. I called the pastor and he said that if I wanted to call and apologize that I could ask my husband for a do-over. I think what happened was I was at our house and got very very emotional looking at the children's things and thinking about how separating from my husband would destroy our lives. I'm afraid the children will blame me for everything and of course my husband will validate their negative feelings about me.
THere are lots of other things that make separating really, really complicated. I'm not sure if counseling is ever going to work (with him denying being abusive especially) and in the meantime I just have to keep putting up with crap. He is miserable day in and day out when he's around me. He even told the pastor the same thing. When I am around he is miserable and angry. He can't explain why. The pastor said for me to not take this too personally but I'm sorry, but I am and I feel really crappy about myself right now.
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Just looking for some advice.
The thing is, that he absolutely denies the fact that he is abusive. Many other people (mostly pastors) have been involved in this situation and although many have said "abuse" to me privately, they have never (as far as I can tell) said this to my husband. He gets very, very angry when the subject is brought up. As far as he knows, he is going counseling to work on some "anger" issues and that's it.
How is he ever going to stop abusing me if he won't even admit he has a problem? How can I know that the counselor will be able to figure this out? (In the past he has made it very clear he won't tell me what the counseling sessions are like.)
I am his enemy and he treats me like I am a constant threat to him. I do not think he loves me. When we go through cycles of him saying he's sorry and things get better (for short periods of time) I have gotten to the point where I don't believe him when he says he loves me.
Things got really bad a few days ago and I told him I was leaving him (at the time we were visiting family a couple of hours away. He insisted I drive him home that night so I did.) After I dropped him off I started having serious doubts about leaving him. I called the pastor and he said that if I wanted to call and apologize that I could ask my husband for a do-over. I think what happened was I was at our house and got very very emotional looking at the children's things and thinking about how separating from my husband would destroy our lives. I'm afraid the children will blame me for everything and of course my husband will validate their negative feelings about me.
THere are lots of other things that make separating really, really complicated. I'm not sure if counseling is ever going to work (with him denying being abusive especially) and in the meantime I just have to keep putting up with crap. He is miserable day in and day out when he's around me. He even told the pastor the same thing. When I am around he is miserable and angry. He can't explain why. The pastor said for me to not take this too personally but I'm sorry, but I am and I feel really crappy about myself right now.
Just looking for some advice.
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I've been thinking about you, snuffles, and wondering how things were going. Not too good, I guess. I'm so sorry.
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From what you've posted, I'm guessing you are going to have to leave him. Not necessarily for good, but at least for a while to get his attention. It will not be ruining your kids' lives. They see how he treats you. By leaving, you are giving him a "time out" so he can think about what is important to him. You can tell him that you all love him very much, but he needs some time alone to figure out how to control his temper. He can fool people outside the home, but I honestly don't think he can fool your kids in to making them think you are the bad guy. Kids know.
I really really understand the antsy feeling when he has promised to get help and then doesn't take prompt action. You are not wrong to be asking about his appointments. You are hanging on by a thread and he is dawdling. If I were you I would tell him that you can't wait for him to get around to it and so he has two choices: either have an appointment in place by X (whatever you feel is a period of time can live with) or let you make the appointment for him. If he rejects both options, or accepts the first and then doesn't follow through, you leave. Do you have parents or friends you can move in with temporarily? You have to make it clear to him that you are no longer willing to live with the disrespect.
As for the issue of him not accepting that he is an abuser... I have to say I am not a huge fan of that word. I know and you know that he is emotionally abusing you... but when you use that word, it conjures up in his mind the picture of some horrible monster and he rejects it because he doesn't think he is a monster. Especially if he has mental issues, he simply won't see it. In my opinion, the word itself can become a barrier to the abuser recognizing his problem because it is sooooooo emotionally and socially charged. I would recommend that, when you talk to him, you simply describe the behavior you will no longer accept rather than using the word "abuse". For example: "I need you to treat me with respect even when you are angry at me. That means, no name calling, threats, etc etc." Now, if he is denying that he calls you names etc when you know that he did, the only thing left is to say that you will no longer live with it and move out.
Once that happens, the ball is in his court. If he loves you and the kids, he will change. If not, he doesn't love you and you will both be happier building a new life apart.
Do your older children ever talk to you about daddy's behavior? How does it affect them?
From what you've posted, I'm guessing you are going to have to leave him. Not necessarily for good, but at least for a while to get his attention. It will not be ruining your kids' lives. They see how he treats you. By leaving, you are giving him a "time out" so he can think about what is important to him. You can tell him that you all love him very much, but he needs some time alone to figure out how to control his temper. He can fool people outside the home, but I honestly don't think he can fool your kids in to making them think you are the bad guy. Kids know.
I really really understand the antsy feeling when he has promised to get help and then doesn't take prompt action. You are not wrong to be asking about his appointments. You are hanging on by a thread and he is dawdling. If I were you I would tell him that you can't wait for him to get around to it and so he has two choices: either have an appointment in place by X (whatever you feel is a period of time can live with) or let you make the appointment for him. If he rejects both options, or accepts the first and then doesn't follow through, you leave. Do you have parents or friends you can move in with temporarily? You have to make it clear to him that you are no longer willing to live with the disrespect.
As for the issue of him not accepting that he is an abuser... I have to say I am not a huge fan of that word. I know and you know that he is emotionally abusing you... but when you use that word, it conjures up in his mind the picture of some horrible monster and he rejects it because he doesn't think he is a monster. Especially if he has mental issues, he simply won't see it. In my opinion, the word itself can become a barrier to the abuser recognizing his problem because it is sooooooo emotionally and socially charged. I would recommend that, when you talk to him, you simply describe the behavior you will no longer accept rather than using the word "abuse". For example: "I need you to treat me with respect even when you are angry at me. That means, no name calling, threats, etc etc." Now, if he is denying that he calls you names etc when you know that he did, the only thing left is to say that you will no longer live with it and move out.
Once that happens, the ball is in his court. If he loves you and the kids, he will change. If not, he doesn't love you and you will both be happier building a new life apart.
Do your older children ever talk to you about daddy's behavior? How does it affect them?
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Thanks for the replies. It feels so good to have people to talk to. I am very isolated and really have noone.
Thao, I think it is so interesting that you asked about my children. This afternoon my oldest daughter (8) was screaming at her brother and really not being herself. A little while later I was taking her to an art lesson and I asked her why she was being so mean to him and if anything was bothering her. She broke down and told me that daddy acted like he loved the other kids more because he was always so mean to her. This broke my heart
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. I told my dd (and my other kids) that daddy was just having a hard time right now and that he was going to try to get better. I asked them if they had noticed that their father and I had been fighting a lot lately--one of my kids piped up and said yes, and it's always daddy's fault. I didn't say anything.
My MIL has always had this "thing" against my eldest dd (I have 3 dds and 2 ds's) and now my dd is feeling this same thing coming from my husband. (His parents are very controlling and manipulative as well. They have always been extra mean to my dd for unknown reasons.. they miss almost every birthday party but show up for all of the other children's.) My inlaws are a story for another day I guess although they have a huge impact on what my husband is like today.
This was proof to me that my husband's behavior IS affecting the children. I'm packing the kids up in the morning and going to stay with my parents for a while. It's hard because I really like being home and my husband is back into one of his good cycles again (for the time being.. could change any minute.) And I really do love him. I know that is stupid. And I hate, hate, hate taking the kids away from their beds, stuff, security. They're also going to have to miss a party tomorrow night that they've been looking forward to. But I can't stand another minute of subjecting my dd to his behavior. Atleast my kids love their grandparents and love going over there.
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This is so hard.
Edited to add--what should I say to my husband about what my dd said? My dd asked me to not tell her daddy because he would get mad at her.
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She's intimidated by him, too. But part of my wants to tell dh, see, look, this is affecting the WHOLE family.. not just me.
SHould I say something to the therapist? My husband was in a "good" mood this afternoon and I asked him if he would be OK with me making appts for him. He agreed and I found a psychologist that looks promising. He has an appt next Wednesday. I'm tempted to write a letter and mail to the therapist or even call him personally and talk to him. Maybe this is inappropriate? I certainly wouldn't tell my husband that I called.
Thao, I think it is so interesting that you asked about my children. This afternoon my oldest daughter (8) was screaming at her brother and really not being herself. A little while later I was taking her to an art lesson and I asked her why she was being so mean to him and if anything was bothering her. She broke down and told me that daddy acted like he loved the other kids more because he was always so mean to her. This broke my heart
My MIL has always had this "thing" against my eldest dd (I have 3 dds and 2 ds's) and now my dd is feeling this same thing coming from my husband. (His parents are very controlling and manipulative as well. They have always been extra mean to my dd for unknown reasons.. they miss almost every birthday party but show up for all of the other children's.) My inlaws are a story for another day I guess although they have a huge impact on what my husband is like today.
This was proof to me that my husband's behavior IS affecting the children. I'm packing the kids up in the morning and going to stay with my parents for a while. It's hard because I really like being home and my husband is back into one of his good cycles again (for the time being.. could change any minute.) And I really do love him. I know that is stupid. And I hate, hate, hate taking the kids away from their beds, stuff, security. They're also going to have to miss a party tomorrow night that they've been looking forward to. But I can't stand another minute of subjecting my dd to his behavior. Atleast my kids love their grandparents and love going over there.
This is so hard.
Edited to add--what should I say to my husband about what my dd said? My dd asked me to not tell her daddy because he would get mad at her.
SHould I say something to the therapist? My husband was in a "good" mood this afternoon and I asked him if he would be OK with me making appts for him. He agreed and I found a psychologist that looks promising. He has an appt next Wednesday. I'm tempted to write a letter and mail to the therapist or even call him personally and talk to him. Maybe this is inappropriate? I certainly wouldn't tell my husband that I called.
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Or as they get older and become adults, they could blame you for not leaving.
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I wouldn't say anything, not only because your DD is already afraid of him and needs you to safely confide in, but also because he probably won't 'hear' it anyway. Or he'll turn it around and say you are making the children hate him (but you are likely going to hear that a lot in the future, anyway).
A really excellent book to check out is "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Lundy Bancroft. It covers a lot of the behaviors you are seeing in your DH, and preparing to leave and dealing with children, divorce and custody issues when the spouse is an abuser.
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| I'm afraid the children will blame me for everything... |
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| Edited to add--what should I say to my husband about what my dd said? My dd asked me to not tell her daddy because he would get mad at her.
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A really excellent book to check out is "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Lundy Bancroft. It covers a lot of the behaviors you are seeing in your DH, and preparing to leave and dealing with children, divorce and custody issues when the spouse is an abuser.
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This is great advice. I've never been in your situation, but with many issues in my own relationship it's been extremely productive to focus on what I will do, what I am willing to tolerate, and what I will not tolerate. It has helped me get out of the habit of not trying to change my husband or his behavior. Luckily, the only make-it or break-it thing he did that I decided I would no longer tolerate, he stopped doing immediately after I told him that. It sounds like this is going to be much more difficult with your husband.
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You're doing the right thing by your kids for trying to work on it.
Originally Posted by Thao As for the issue of him not accepting that he is an abuser... I have to say I am not a huge fan of that word. I know and you know that he is emotionally abusing you... but when you use that word, it conjures up in his mind the picture of some horrible monster and he rejects it because he doesn't think he is a monster. Especially if he has mental issues, he simply won't see it. In my opinion, the word itself can become a barrier to the abuser recognizing his problem because it is sooooooo emotionally and socially charged. I would recommend that, when you talk to him, you simply describe the behavior you will no longer accept rather than using the word "abuse". For example: "I need you to treat me with respect even when you are angry at me. That means, no name calling, threats, etc etc." Now, if he is denying that he calls you names etc when you know that he did, the only thing left is to say that you will no longer live with it and move out. |
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It sounds like you've already tried to get help and it's just not working for your DH. Maybe he needs individual therapy on his own.
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Either way, you have to put yourself first. You were a person before you ever met your DH and you can be a person after you leave him if you choose to do so. You can't worry about your lives being torn up if you leave your DH because a better life may just be out there waiting for you, and how would you know if you didn't leave? There's really no easy way and I realize what it's like because I come from divorced parents and it can be hard on the kids. But keep in mind if the kids witness any of the abuse that it may be 'better' for them to no longer have to be in the same house with 'both' of you. I know that's how it was in my case when my arguing parents finally split (it was better for me in the long run).
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Your children deserve to be raised in a happy home, not a stressful, uncertain home. Good luck to you.
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(I haven't read through all the posts)
I've been there and it so sucks. It can drive you crazy, literally. I'm so glad you posted, though. I think the more you talk about it the better. When things were really rough with my H, a fellow mama on here recommended this site: http://www.drirene.com/ and the site's forum: http://www.drirene.com/catbox/index.php It was really good to get feed back and support and to just have understanding ears (eyes) listening to my story.
Can you get in to see a counsellor? I think a counsellor will be more removed from your situation than your pastor and therefore (possibly?) able to help you see things more clearly. It certainly couldn't hurt. If possible, try to find one sensitive to domestic violence issues. Your local women's shelter might have recommendations. Also, depending on what is available where you live, there might be group support sessions of women experiencing domestic violence (that includes emotional abuse!). I went to one at our local battered women's society and it was soooo incredibly comforting. We all cried, but supported eachother and no one's story was considered less important than anyone else's.
The thing that always struck me hardest was when people asked me, "do you want your children to grow up thinking it's ok to treat you like that?" They will then very likely grow up to be just as disrespectful. That thought has always stuck with me and now that things are 'better' with H, I keep that thought as the measure of what is tolerable and what is not.
Also, the 'surviving abuse' forum on this site has been a wonderful place to get support, ideas, been there done that advice, etc.
Take good, good care of yourself.
Please remember to be kind to yourself. It is so hard to do when in this kind of relationship, but it will help your strength. I'm in a similar relationship with my DP, although our relationship has been much shorter than yours. I wanted to let you know that a friend of mine has 4 children, including 2 under school age, and she left her DH this summer and is now in college again. It can be done, and she makes it look simple even! I know how hard it is to leave, to make that final decision and those first steps forward. But your DH is telling you in words and deed that he wants out. My DP has said similar things to me. So I'm going to give him what he wants. It's scary, but I know I have to do it, for myself, and for my DD. I refuse to let her continue to witness mistreatment of me, I fear for her future wrt men and relationships if I stay. I know I will be happier once I am free of DP's mean and selfish attitude. I'm sure you will be also.
So be kind to yourself, and trust that you are stronger than you ever imagined you could be. HTH and Best Wishes!
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Oh darlin
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I'm very sorry you are going through this. You've received some very good advice already and I don't have much to add. From your latest update, I think it's pretty clear this needs to be the end. It sucks, it hurts but it needs to happen.
Something I want to suggest is the book "The First 30 Days". It's about changes specifically, emotional reactions to them and how to let go and let life lead you where you need to be.
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again.
Something I want to suggest is the book "The First 30 Days". It's about changes specifically, emotional reactions to them and how to let go and let life lead you where you need to be.
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That's really good advice for "normal" relationships, but I think the problem that a lot of women have is they try to interact in abusive relationships with the rules of normal relationships. They waste a lot of time trying to fix things because they're accustomed to the cause-and-effect sequences of normal relationships -- we work on our relationship and it gets better, we have a respectful talk and figure out our problems, that kind of thing.
But things like logic and "I" statements and respectful dialogue and whatnot don't work in abusive relationships. It's an utterly different universe. It is so, so, so vastly rare for abusive relationships to get better, to ever get truly healthy. Usually they get a hell of a lot worse.
The best thing I ever did was leave the abusive relationship I was in. I tried to fix it for a while, but thank god I left. It was easier to leave since we didn't have any children, but it's still hard.
And then I met the nicest guy in the world and together we made the best baby ever.
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My advise to any woman in an abusive relationship, with very few exceptions, is leave. As fast as you can.
Originally Posted by Fuamami This is great advice. I've never been in your situation, but with many issues in my own relationship it's been extremely productive to focus on what I will do, what I am willing to tolerate, and what I will not tolerate. It has helped me get out of the habit of not trying to change my husband or his behavior. |
But things like logic and "I" statements and respectful dialogue and whatnot don't work in abusive relationships. It's an utterly different universe. It is so, so, so vastly rare for abusive relationships to get better, to ever get truly healthy. Usually they get a hell of a lot worse.
The best thing I ever did was leave the abusive relationship I was in. I tried to fix it for a while, but thank god I left. It was easier to leave since we didn't have any children, but it's still hard.
And then I met the nicest guy in the world and together we made the best baby ever.
My advise to any woman in an abusive relationship, with very few exceptions, is leave. As fast as you can.
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Sheesh! I am so sorry for you. You have so many things going on.
I really think you should revisit the idea of leaving, if only temporarily, just to get some peace for yourself and some time to think. I understand the school situation may be difficult, but it sounds like the present situation is much worse than a not-so-great public school would be.
I taught for several years in a school district that was inadequate in many ways (I chose not to send my kids there, but we were able to afford private school). However, kids actually did learn, and felt safe while at school. Many graduates went on to college, graduate or professional school, and were very successful. We spent far too much time on discipline issues, we had crowded classrooms, and our standardized test scores were atrocious. But I really don't think any of those things emotionally scarred children. It sounds like dh homeschooling the kids is going to emotionally scare them.
However, if you stayed with your parents for a while, could you send them to another school?
I think going to nursing school is such a great idea! Good for you! You will gain independence and self-confidence.
I am so sorry the man you married and had five kids with has turned out to failed you right when you need him the most. However. it is not your fault. It is not your children's fault. It sounds like he may need medication and definitely therapy. You have to let him decide if he wants to be a responsible adult and get help, or he wants to wallow in depression and ruin his family.
Originally Posted by snuffles He confided in me tonight and told me that he is just not happy. Very, very unhappy. Doesn't think he will ever be happy. His main frustration is our five children. He said he can't stand being around them anymore. He even told me he has been tempted to start a fight w/ me because then I will leave and he can be alone. He told me that he really is just happier when he's alone and can do his own thing. This is very depressing. I am in nursing school and he has been homeschooling our children and I am supposed to go back to school in a couple of weeks. We homeschool b/c we live in a very bad school district. I am goign to school because we are broke, all the time. He has never been happy about me going to school but it is something I've fought for and proud of. |
I really think you should revisit the idea of leaving, if only temporarily, just to get some peace for yourself and some time to think. I understand the school situation may be difficult, but it sounds like the present situation is much worse than a not-so-great public school would be.
I taught for several years in a school district that was inadequate in many ways (I chose not to send my kids there, but we were able to afford private school). However, kids actually did learn, and felt safe while at school. Many graduates went on to college, graduate or professional school, and were very successful. We spent far too much time on discipline issues, we had crowded classrooms, and our standardized test scores were atrocious. But I really don't think any of those things emotionally scarred children. It sounds like dh homeschooling the kids is going to emotionally scare them.
However, if you stayed with your parents for a while, could you send them to another school?
I think going to nursing school is such a great idea! Good for you! You will gain independence and self-confidence.
I am so sorry the man you married and had five kids with has turned out to failed you right when you need him the most. However. it is not your fault. It is not your children's fault. It sounds like he may need medication and definitely therapy. You have to let him decide if he wants to be a responsible adult and get help, or he wants to wallow in depression and ruin his family.
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