I asked the same question a while back, got some info here, but it also helped (not sure if you have already) to search in Traditional Foods and Special Needs Parenting. It's new enough that there doesn't seem to be a huge body of info on it--I should've searched for SCD as well, they're similar enough that that probably would've been useful (though I'm just now thinking of that, a couple months late <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll">).<br><br>
I am thinking we'll probably do this later this year, we need things to settle down a bit before I make this commitment. For us it'll mostly be for my husband actually, but I think my daughter will benefit too, and it won't hurt me or my son. I'm been hesitant to do this because it seems like a serious amount of hard work, so partly it's the work and partly it's keeping a positive attitude about it. If I feel it's a burden, it will be bad for my husband regardless of how his gut reacts.<br><br>
The more I lurk here, the more I think my husband would be one of the moms here, if he were female and a mother, of course <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"> trying to piece together what-all foods he's eating that are causing all these issues for the kids.
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The more I lurk here, the more I think my husband would be one of the moms here, if he were female and a mother, of course trying to piece together what-all foods he's eating that are causing all these issues for the kids</td>
Do you mean that your husband actually participates? Mine participates by barking at me "Well tell me what to feed him" at regular intervals when I tell him I think our son is reacting to something.
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>chlobo</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/13118960"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Do you mean that your husband actually participates? Mine participates by barking at me "Well tell me what to feed him" at regular intervals when I tell him I think our son is reacting to something.</div>
"Participates" would be a stretch, quite a stretch. The health stuff is really my area, just recently he asked if the chocolate Skittles would be okay for our son, who only has 4 allergens--gluten, dairy, cashews and chocolate. Because the only "questionable" ingredient in the Skittles (vs regular Skittles that are okay allergen-wise) was "cocoa." Uh.... apparently I have not explained clearly enough. But he's very supportive of what I'm doing with me and the kids, and has stayed gfcf with very, very few cheats in the 1.5yrs (more now) that we've been doing this just based on our old chiro and me telling him that gluten and dairy are problems for him (he doesn't feel any better for it though--which is why I think his gut needs more help--it's not that he's got wonderful health and a great gut!).<br><br>
What I mean is, my husband will pretty much eat what I feed him, and he knows I read more about this than he does (he's grateful he doesn't have to do the reading), and if I tell him that making changes will be good for him (and hopefully actually make him feel better, which is really our goal at this point) he'll do it. It's not that he's an active participant in all this, really, it's just that he's unusually supportive and willing to go along with my ideas. He feels similar to how I did a couple years ago, which is really not good. We are fortunate that I am on the upswing--for a while, when we were both feeling bad, tired out, probably both would've scored as depressed on a test, it wasn't good. Adrenal fatigue and food allergies seem to co-exist a lot, and his adrenals are in sad shape, and there are other subtle signs that his gut isn't good.<br><br>
Anyway, long answer for a short question--he's unusually willing to humor me is really what's going on.
My husband will humor me. But I find it quite frustratring when I say "I think that's bad for DS" and he barks back "well tell me what to feed him" because i honestly have no freaking clue what to feed him. He's so picky and pinks up every other meal. It's been a long hard road, as I'm sure you know. And my health isn't the greatest. I've got the adrenals, thyroid & just plain tired from 5 years of breastfeeding.
It's hard, it's only recently that life hasn't felt like drudgery around here. You know something that seems to be working for us? We watched a movie recently, our old chiropractor recommended it a couple years ago and I kept it in mind all this time even though we never got around to renting it til November. It was about visualization and essentially the power of positive thinking. Sounds corny, the movie was better than my description (it was The Secret, came out several years ago, I guess, and PB recommended another that we're going to see next, You Can Heal Your Life, she says it's better). This sounds weird to even write, but yesterday we got an offer on our old house (having 2 housing payments for a year is a bummer--we listed the old house in Feb08) and we've really been working on feeling gratitude for where we are, really revelling in gratitude, plus envisioning where we want to be and the joy and gratitude of being there. The first part of that was selling the house, the financial stress was getting icky, and we wanted to get an offer in January (tried to be realistic--didn't expect to get an offer right before Christmas, for example)--and I'm not going to say February 2 is a failure. We've got a few more things we'd like to accomplish this year, so we're going to try to tackle them one at a time.<br><br>
It's not a substitute for the real, tangible things we need (adrenal and thyroid support, a really beefy multi helped me too), but maybe it could be part of finding a great healthcare provider, or whatever you think you need next.<br><br>
Anyway, weird ramble for the day, sorry to go on and on.
It's so funny because I just watched a video about GAPS on youtube and then came over here to this forum. here it is:<br><br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLP0Ijo2CK4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLP0Ijo2CK4</a><br><br>
I really believe that both GAPS and SCD are very healing diets. I am just not sure which one is better, and I would also like to know more about others' experiences. We did the SCD years ago for my older ds from about age 1 to 4. It significantly helped his intestinal issues, but it wasn't the end-all answer. I didn't really know about other gut healing stuff at that time, and he did better, but would still have mushy loose stools from time to time.<br><br>
Then a month ago we started the SCD again, and it has really helped, again. Both my dc were having loose stools, even some blood and mucus in the stool. I knew it was from the one round of abx they had a year ago. So, SCD has helped tremendously, they started gaining weight again, loose stools have slowed down, but again, it hasn't been the final answer, because we still have days of a mushy stool or weird floating stool and gas.<br><br>
I have also been reading about GAPS, and wondering if we should go that route instead. It is very similar, and GAPS is really based on SCD, but there are some major differences in the introduction of it. GAPS emphasizes bone broths with lots of well-cooked veggies at the start, along with a multi-strain probiotic. SCD holds off on all the veggies at the very beginning, adding them in slowly, and recommends just plain acidophilus.<br><br>
Also, I think Campbell-McBride (GAPS) doesn't think enzymes are helpful. Wont hurt, but not helpful. I just read that somewhere. Which I was actually thinking about trying enzymes next, but I don't know.<br><br>
GAPS does say the intro is pretty important, and it's better to not go straight into the full diet without it, and she even goes so far as to say she has seen it cause more resistant cases.<br><br>
My dilemma is that we are still eating a pretty restricted diet around here, so do I go back and do the GAPS intro now, because it would be easier since I haven't reintroduced a lot of foods yet. Or maybe it's not necessary.<br><br>
The main difference for us is that we are eating a LOT of bananas right now. My 3 yr old just needed t be able to eat something, and I can't get him to eat the soup. SO he mostly eats meat, eggs, ripe bananas, coconut oil, olive oil, and many combinations thereof. He will eat some cooked veggies too, like green beans, cauliflower, carrots, but he is much more picky about that and it's usually only a few bites. He will also eat cooked apples, but the apples and carrots seemed to make their stools loose again. (Which is now making me wonder about fructose malabsorption? I am wondering if this is a separate issue or if that will heal also by doing these diets.)<br><br>
GAPS holds off on all the fruits, even cooked, until later. I think she even suggests adding in nut butter before any fruits. She does say though that you can move through those stages pretty quickly.<br><br>
So, I'm not much help, other than to say I am eager to join in on discussion about these two diets. I am eager to add more food back in though, so I want to decide if I should go back and do GAPS intro or just keep moving forward.<br><br>
Also, the SCD "stages" on pecanbread are not a part of the SCD necessarily, just something that people came up with later that seemed to help many children with autism when tolerating foods. Gottschall (SCD) does though say start with the intro diet and then add foods in slowly as you heal, sticking to well cooked fruits and veggies at first, then nuts, then more advanced things like beans much later. But the premise there is to use your symptoms as your guide.<br><br>
Sorry that was such a long rambling answer.
Two quick thoughts--at least on the GAPS website, it does list digestive enzymes as one of the supplements to take, which makes sense to me--people with really messed up digestion could probably use some enzyme help--but I haven't read the book yet, and I haven't joined the yahoo group.<br><br>
Second--I am actually going to deliberately very, very slowly transition into the full GAPS diet, see how things go, and then consider transitioning again into the intro--I was concerned, and one or two people mentioned it happened, that there could be some real gastro upset and overall feeling bad from just jumping in. I'm guessing it's more likely and problematic for adults because they've had years of messed up digestion, and you've done SCD which is so similar that I'd think a lot of improvement's already happened. But for my husband, he can't feel worse--we can't do that, he won't be functional if he goes through a period of feeling worse.<br><br>
But those are minor, and I still think it's going to be late summer (great birthday present to my husband, may need to wait til September!) before we really try this. Wow, that would just be too mean of me, Happy Birthday Dear, have some stock to drink--no, no cake, not even a gluten-free one! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love"><br><br>
Anyway, for me GAPS is appealing because dairy is so very optional, because I already love veggie ferments and that feels very healing to me, and because I already make bone broths and again, that also feels very healing to me. Both have seemed to _be_ healing for my daughter, and she's my proxy for my husband, so if they help her, they should help him. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin"><br><br><a href="http://gapsdiet.com/GAPS_Outline.html" target="_blank">http://gapsdiet.com/GAPS_Outline.html</a><br>
just cause it seems like a good link for us to include
Oh that's interesting that they have digestive enzymes on there. Like I said, I just read someone posting that somewhere, so I'm not sure if that's exact. I will look through the book and see if she mentions them. Yea, it makes sense to me too.<br><br>
I have also heard about people very slowly working their way into the diet, and then later hey re-do the intro. I think that people who have bad symptoms right off the bat are either having die-off or the probiotics are too much to take right from the start. We tried doing the SCD intro along with some non-legal probiotics a couple of months ago, and it was a disaster. My 4 yo had horrible D and painful tummy aches. But this time we did the intro SCD, no probiotics, and we did not have that.<br><br>
I have two documents that were originally from Campbell-McBride but that someone who got them from her edited. Sounds sketchy I know, but it's not, they are very helpful. I can email them to anyone, if you PM me your email. One is about implementing the diet and the other is about the intro simplified.
Another helpful link is here:<br><br><a href="http://gapsguide.com/" target="_blank">http://gapsguide.com/</a><br><br>
Look on the right hand side at "printables". Tanya, you have to read the one that says "Beginning GAPS Gently" under printables!
Okay here's a printable about the GAPS intro simplified. This is what I had to email, except for that I have one more too. But here's this one:<br><br><a href="http://gapsguide.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/gapsintrosimplified.pdf" target="_blank">http://gapsguide.files.wordpress.com...simplified.pdf</a>
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The Secret, came out several years ago, I guess, and PB recommended another that we're going to see next, You Can Heal Your Life, she says it's better).</td>
We aught to have a lending library. I actually bought The Secret off of ebay. The first copy I got was in French. I've only watched it once. Need to watchi t again. I have the Louise Hay video on request at the library. I read the book years ago.<br><br>
I know I have to focus on the other side of this - positive. I just took Ds to see an intuitive who gave us some advice. And I'm taking him to a new classical homeopath on Saturday. Both these moves feel more right than before. I'm stuck a little on what to do for myself or my daughter. I've seen 3 NDs and none of them have been particularly helpful.<br><br>
Thanks for the gaps links. Just from reading about the 2, gaps seems more doable for me and SCD feels very daunting.
Well, SCD is pretty much the exact same things as GAPS, once you get to the full diet of both. The main differences are how you introduce things. And GAPS has more suggestions for things that may be gut healing, like the juicing, bone broths, etc, but all those things are also legal on the SCD. I think the main differences are just introducing the diet and the fact that the SCD suggests using only acidophilus strain probiotics (though s boulardii is also allowed) while GAPS suggests using the BioKult probiotic which is multi-strain.<br><br>
That being said, you totally have to go with what feels right, so if something seems daunting and something else seems nourishing, that's a good sign to pay attention to! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="thumbs up">
<p>Like a few others here, I have some experience with the SCD, and have looked into GAPS (though haven't tried it, and don't have the book). Just wanted to expand a bit on something momofmine said:<br><br></p>
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tbody><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">GAPS emphasizes bone broths with lots of well-cooked veggies at the start (...) SCD holds off on all the veggies at the very beginning, adding them in slowly</td>
<p>This might not sound like that big of a difference, but IMO it's very significant for a couple of reasons. #1 is fiber. Although we tend to think that "more fiber is a good thing," the SCD folks believe that too much of it can be an impediment to healing, as it can further irritate an inflamed gut. This applies to everyone, not just those with loose stools; too much fiber can even aggravate constipation. Other researchers who agree with this line of thinking are Konstantin Monastyrsky (author of <span style="text-decoration:underline;">The Fiber Menace</span>), and Dr. Jan Kwasniewski (creator of the Optimal Diet, which emphasizes animal fats and organ meats). For this reason, the SCD only allows peeled, slow-cooked, pureed carrots on the intro diet. (Some people find that they can't even handle much of these in the beginning.) Then it moves on to other peeled, seeded, and cooked vegetables, introducing a new one every couple of days, as tolerated. The ones that are too fibrous can be used in broth and discarded before serving, or juiced in a juicer that removes the pulp.<br><br>
Having read on this forum that GAPS is "a stricter version of the SCD," I was very surprised to learn that Dr. Campbell-McBride recommends eating substantial amounts of most types of vegetables from day one. I don't mean to assert that she's wrong about this; I guess time will tell, as more and more people try her diet. But it's a very different approach.<br><br>
Another point of concern is that many people with health problems are intolerant to high levels of salicylates, which are natural food chemicals that are found in abundance in many vegetables. The SCD doesn't address the issue of salicylates per se, but their advice to "try one food every couple of days" gives people a much better chance of identifying and avoiding foods that are likely to bother them. I'm not sure that you'd have much hope of figuring this out if you were eating all sorts of vegetables from the beginning. The same goes for foods that are high in amines, like broth made from fish or beef bones (especially if these aren't extremely fresh). Chicken soup tends to be better tolerated by sensitive folks, which might be why it's a traditional healing food in so many cultures.<br><br>
My main reason for sticking with the SCD is its track record. It's been clinically tested and used for several decades to control IBD, and has been used for at least 10-15 years to help with autism and immune disorders. GAPS is pretty new, and, as I've said above, time will tell whether it works for most people or not. Just from the anecdotes I've read here and elsewhere, though, it does seem as if many people feel pretty bad for months and months on GAPS, and chalk it up to detox or healing reactions. On the SCD, it's not unusual to have some sort of cleansing reaction for the first few days, but if you have severe symptoms lasting more than a week or two, you're likely going too fast in introducing new foods, or being too aggressive with probiotics. It's supposed to be a gentle process. In our situation (pregnant mother and very young children), I find this aspect very appealing.<br><br>
Anyway, I'm very interested to hear about others' experiences. And, if some kind person is willing to share information from their GAPS literature, I'd love to hear what Dr. Campbell-McBride has to say about the points I've mentioned above. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"></p>
Don't have a lot of time, but I wanted to second the thing about the fiber. This is what we have found to be true also. I myself did not have diarrhea, so starting the SCD made a little less regular at first. Not constipated, I just wasn't going as often. Whereas for my kids, it was needed, but for me, I thought, oh, I need more fiber. But actually I found out that we need more fat. As long as we get enough fat,like CO in a smoothie, we go regularly. But more fiber is actually irritating. They were actually doing the best with very little fiber. And as I added in vegs, even really well cooked, we had more issues.<br><br>
I don't know that she recommends tons of vegs at the outset, and she does say cut out the more fibrous parts, but they do describe making the soup at the start with vegs. Although they also start probiotics right at the start, add garlic to the soup, and add juice from fermented vegs to the soup, so maybe for some that adds enzymes and helps digest the stuff? I don't know.<br><br>
It is interesting to compare. I actually need to read the GAPS book straight through. So far I've only read it in snippets. I've read most of it, but I need to sit down and synthesize it all at once.
i was thinking this weekend, if all i ate for a month was chicken soup and raw eggs, i would be healed. bnut i piged out on gf cookies today instead. oh well.<br><br>
i like gaps, i think it is very logical (i have onlyread abt the intro diet) eating foods which are the first ones introduced (by people like us) to little babies. someone woke up gtg.
yeah, it makes a lot of sense. We are currently technically doing the SCD (there's currently a thread in Nutrition and Good Eating, not sure why it got moved there, since it is a healing diet). But I am going to incorporate a lot of the GAPS info, like the juicing, and we already do the broths.
what does scd entail? grain free and potato free and low fiber? I am curently gfcf and having issues with nuts and feeling like i should go off of nuts and seeds and grains for a bit. but that takes alot of will power and i dont feel like i can do it now. i have been eating fermented veggies everyday (except the last 4 when we were away) now and am going to try to re-make bone broth a major part of my diet again. it hasent been since we moved out of our old place in june. the funny htink is that i think white rice is fine for me. it is just so easy to digest. i guess i can stick with that and make rice pudding once a week or something.<br><br>
i just cant tell you how much i crave fresh baked whole grain bread and butter. (not ghee!!!) I guess if i focus on that it would make giving up lame-o gf cookies easier.
GAPS was based on SCD. Just google it and you'll get a lot. It's not low fiber, it's just that at first, less fiber seems to be best for a lot of people. SO you cook fruits and vegs in the beginning, for example. No grains, potatoes, sugar, no polysaccharides basically. We were doing gluten free and really things did not turn the corner until we went completely SCD. If you have rice even once a week it will not work.
I was thinking about this and food chemical issues. It really seems that if you've got an amine issue, GAPS is just going to be bad news. They really recommend the intro diet where you're basically consuming only homemade stock with the fat for at least a short period, before adding in the veggies and whatnot, but I'm not planning to start that way with my husband, so if you use veggies that have different food chemicals, it could be a lot of trial-and-error and /or just straight failure. But I don't think we have food chemical sensitivities, and I've seen that homemade stock and fermented veggies seem very, very healing and nourishing for my daughter (she's a clone of my husband, so right now that's my best insight into what will work for him), so I think we'll get there later this year. But I'll keep in mind the fiber stuff--right now my husband mostly feels tired out and blah, nothing makes him feel better or worse, so it's hard to problem-solve.