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Discussion Starter #1
Is anyone following the trial of the parents of Ezekiel Stephan in Canada?

If you can, listen to the audio of the parents' interviews from this link:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...itis-police-interview-toddler-death-1.3537887

It's interesting to me that they believed that a Google search is superior to the education and training that actual doctors have, and that their "natural" but completely untested remedies are superior to medicines that have undergone rigorous studies and testing. I believe this goes hand in hand with their refusal to vaccinate their child, and, unfortunately led to the preventable death of this little boy.

Thoughts?
 

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I don't think it goes hand in hand with refusal to vaccinate or vaccinate on another schedule. They delayed in taking their child in for treatment- way beyond the time most parents would wait.
 

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Sorry if this sounds callous

but she was pregnant with her 3rd child, seems like she wasn't taking the health issues with this one as seriously as she should, like she was overwhelmed/way too casual, one 4 yrs old, one 1.5 and one on the way. Even listening to the dad with the 911 operator WTH??? Baby is not breathing, I know some people seem very calm in face of disaster but really?....

21/2 weeks with "croup" and she was still googling for info, healthcare is covered here GO TO THE DOCTOR!!! We even have an info line, not sure if it's the same in Alberta but I'm guessing it is. I don't know how many times I've called it over the years.

But I guess it's all OK because she can have another one?

1.5 seems to be the prime time kids pick up weird illnesses, we picked up strep, roseola and I can't even remember what else. I would miss things sometimes because my son was terrible at communicating stuff but after a few days of off behaviour I would start looking into it more seriously, no way would it have gone on for 2.5 weeks. Maybe she was extraordinarily lucky with the first one....
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I think it does go hand in hand. It's this idea that anyone with Google can be an expert in medicine. Which also devalues the extensive education and training that doctors have, since anyone can just look something up and know more or have better information than doctors.

mumto1, I don't think it was strictly callous neglect on their part. They owned a supplement company (that had been cited by Canada before for making false claims) that they believed cured all mental illnesses. Their Ezekiel was born at home, and they never took him to a doctor. They had a nurse midwife look him over at one point, who obviously knows nothing about Pediatrics, because she said he looked normal, but probably had meningitis and needed to see a doctor. I don't see how you can say both of those things. They did call in a consult to a naturopath, who basically threw them under the bus at the trial and swears that she told them to take him to a doctor, however, she also prepared an echinacea tincture, so that doesn't make sense, either. I think they had such a strong belief that evidence based medicine is bad, and natural supplements are superior that they allowed their toddler to die.
 

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Seems like the parents were wilfully ignorant/just extremely fortunate (if you want to look at it that way) this that was their very first encounter with a serious medical issue. Honestly, an infection like strep./staph, laryngitis, pneumonia does not just go away with garlic and we are not talking about an adult that could "ride it out" but a baby. I have taken risks, I have taken oregano oil for sinusitis, but I am an ADULT making a decision for MYSELF. Did/do people have to make do when their is no medicine available? Sure they do, that is why the child mortality rate is so high in the absence of medical technology. People used to have 6, 10, 20 kids and a third to half or even more would sometimes die before adulthood. Children would become blind, crippled, or get holes in their hearts. We have FREE health care here, and they look like an average couple with a reasonable ability to go to a hospital/clinic. They HAD people telling them to go to a hospital. They let their kid get to the point he couldn't sit up, take liquids on his own or even breath.
 

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I don't think it goes hand in hand with refusal to vaccinate or vaccinate on another schedule. They delayed in taking their child in for treatment- way beyond the time most parents would wait.
@ismewilde, this support group is specifically for members who vaccinate on schedule. Does that fit with your personal decisions in regards to vaccinations?

If so, please forgive my intrusion. If not, please refrain from posting in this support group.

Thank you for understanding.

Vaccinating on Schedule – This is a support-only forum for those who are vaccinating on schedule. Members who are not vaccinating or who are vaccinating on a selective or delayed schedule should not post here to debate or argue accuracy or opinion of things posted. However, this forum will uphold Mothering’s advocacy and support the right of all parents to make an informed decision regarding vaccinations and will not host posts that advocate mandatory vaccination. http://www.mothering.com/forum/47-vaccinations/1549081-vaccination-forum-guidelines.html
 

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The thing that bothers me about what I've been reading about the case is that the people who are supporting them talk an awful lot about parents' rights. And I think that does relate back to vaccines. I'm not for mandatory vaccinations, but it does make me wonder where the line is properly drawn between the rights of the parents to choose how to medically care for their children, and the rights of children to get appropriate care. When the rights of the parents become more important than what's good for the child, that's a problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Orac picked it up this morning. I haven't finished his article (dude is wordy, holy cow), but the title sounds like he is saying what I was trying to get across.

[link removed]
@teacozy I feel 2 ways about this verdict. On the one hand, this child suffered with this illness for 3 weeks, and in fact, probably suffered horribly, and the parents did nothing. Neglect is neglect, even if it is medical neglect spun up in homeopathy and supplements. And the fact they they were seemingly unrepentant, and were aggressively fundraising doesn't make me feel sympathetic. But on the other hand, should it be prosecutable to refuse to use medical methods that the court decides is appropriate? We all know that the burden of proof in a court of law is very different than a scientific burden of proof, and then the whole slippery slope argument (which I generally feel is a strawman). Legally, it seems like there needs to be some sort of defined line between medical neglect and run of the mill willful ignorance. But where is it? If the boy had gotten better, like Heather Dexter's child ( https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.or...ural-immunity-naturopathy-and-whooping-cough/ ) we just shrug and walk away, but if the child dies, then suddenly it's illegal? I'm unsure how I feel about that.

I need more caffeine, lol, but maybe this made some sense?
 

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Orac picked it up this morning. I haven't finished his article (dude is wordy, holy cow), but the title sounds like he is saying what I was trying to get across.

[link removed]
@teacozy I feel 2 ways about this verdict. On the one hand, this child suffered with this illness for 3 weeks, and in fact, probably suffered horribly, and the parents did nothing. Neglect is neglect, even if it is medical neglect spun up in homeopathy and supplements. And the fact they they were seemingly unrepentant, and were aggressively fundraising doesn't make me feel sympathetic. But on the other hand, should it be prosecutable to refuse to use medical methods that the court decides is appropriate? We all know that the burden of proof in a court of law is very different than a scientific burden of proof, and then the whole slippery slope argument (which I generally feel is a strawman). Legally, it seems like there needs to be some sort of defined line between medical neglect and run of the mill willful ignorance. But where is it? If the boy had gotten better, like Heather Dexter's child ( https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.or...ural-immunity-naturopathy-and-whooping-cough/ ) we just shrug and walk away, but if the child dies, then suddenly it's illegal? I'm unsure how I feel about that.

I need more caffeine, lol, but maybe this made some sense?
The parents were charged with "failure to provide necessities of life" which is a specific offense that is outcome dependent. In the US, it doesn't always have to be. For example, parents can get in legal trouble for leaving their child in a car whether they were harmed or not. Had the parents been in the US, they likely would have been charged with negligent homicide/manslaughter which is also outcome dependent. Typically, if a child is not harmed in a medical case, people don't know about it and thus can't act on it and is not as much of a priority as when a child actually dies.
 

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It is not often that you will see me moderate links, especially within the support groups, but every now and then a link violates what this community stands for. The link that has been removed in this thread uses the wording "Quackery and antivaccine views go hand in hand" within the title and within the content. This wording is unacceptable in this community. This is not open for debate.
 

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The parents were charged with "failure to provide necessities of life" which is a specific offense that is outcome dependent. In the US, it doesn't always have to be. For example, parents can get in legal trouble for leaving their child in a car whether they were harmed or not. Had the parents been in the US, they likely would have been charged with negligent homicide/manslaughter which is also outcome dependent. Typically, if a child is not harmed in a medical case, people don't know about it and thus can't act on it and is not as much of a priority as when a child actually dies.
Also, there was evidence that the parents suspected it was meningitis for a couple days at least and still didn't take him to a real doctor. So I don't find the ignorance defense all that compelling in this case.
 

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Science Based Medicine wrote a piece on this issue, for those wanting more information. https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/parents-convicted-in-death-of-toddler/

It's very disheartening to see so many people in the non-vaccine community (not necessarily members here) supporting these parents. Thinking Moms Revolution wrote a post in support of the parents yesterday, but took it down after the backlash. They actually tried to blame his death on the ambulance being ill-equipped despite the medical examiner saying he was brain dead from the meningitis infection before he ever reached the ambulance.

Tragic case all around :(
 

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Another case in Canada is going to be tried next year:

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local...ed-holistic-medicine-to-treat-fatally-ill-son

Lovett will face trial on charges of failing to provide the necessities of life and criminal negligence causing the death of Ryan Alexander Lovett. He died in March 2013 after contracting a strep infection that kept him bedridden for 10 days.

An autopsy revealed the boy died as a result of a Group A streptococcus infection.

Police have said the woman called for help from her suite in the 900 block of 17th Avenue S.W. early on March 2, 2013, fearing the young boy was suffering a seizure. The child was later pronounced dead in hospital.

They have alleged the mother chose to treat the bacterial infection with homeopathic herbal remedies instead of taking him to a doctor. Police say there is no record of the boy ever being taken to the doctor for annual checkups or any treatment and the decision not to do so likely killed the child.
How tragic :(

Reminds me of the thread we had here recently when we were discussing the problems with the term "natural parenting".

The number of anti-vaccine websites I found that were telling parents how to treat strep throat naturally without antibiotics is scary...
 

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His father got sentenced to 4 months in prison, the mother to 3 months of strict house arrest and they have to take their children to a nurse for a check up every 3 months and a doctor once a year.

So many times these kinds of cases get swept under the rug so this was more than I was expecting.
 
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