[umsami]

<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html</a><br><br>
"As difficult as this is to contemplate, it is clear, if you are willing to look, that each of these 10 steps has already been initiated today in the United States by the Bush administration.<br><br>
Because Americans like me were born in freedom, we have a hard time even considering that it is possible for us to become as unfree - domestically - as many other nations. Because we no longer learn much about our rights or our system of government - the task of being aware of the constitution has been outsourced from citizens' ownership to being the domain of professionals such as lawyers and professors - we scarcely recognise the checks and balances that the founders put in place, even as they are being systematically dismantled. Because we don't learn much about European history, the setting up of a department of "homeland" security - remember who else was keen on the word "homeland" - didn't raise the alarm bells it might have."<br><br>
This is a really interesting and enlightening article... I'm sure some knew it was happening, but this really makes it apparent.

 

[Annabel_the_Sheep]

"As Americans turn away quite leisurely, keeping tuned to internet shopping and American Idol, the foundations of democracy are being fatally corroded."<br><br>
Great article, thanks for posting. I tend to disagree with the conclusions of Naomi Wolf, in this particular matter - however I believe she is not far from the truth.<br><br>
Here is another interesting article that questions whether America is becoming fascist:<br><br><a href="http://adbusters.org/the_magazine/65/Is_RightWing_America_Becoming_Fascist.html" target="_blank">http://adbusters.org/the_magazine/65...g_Fascist.html</a><br><br>
Basically, the author says we are not there yet, but we are going to be there very fast.<br><br><br>
" While the relentless advance of the conservative movement’s agenda is scary, the American right is not genuinely fascist – at least, not yet. "<br><br><br>
and then<br><br><br>
"While these similarities show that the American conservative movement has become, in its basic architecture, a kind of precursor to fascism, some important elements are still missing:<br>
· Its agenda, under the guise of representing mainstream conservatism, is not openly revolutionary.<br>
· While increasingly a one-party state, it is not yet a dictatorship.<br>
· It does not yet rely on physical violence and campaigns of gross intimidation to obtain power and suppress opposition.<br>
· American democracy has not yet reached the genuine stage of crisis required for full-blown fascism to take root."

 

[jrayn]

thank you for posting this article, it is unfortunate that most Americans will continue to ignore what is happening right now, denial, feeling powerless, being content with current life whatever the reason, people just don't act or don't know how.<br>
I fall under that category... So what can <b>I</b> do? I don't know what to do..... sign online petitions????? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/guilty.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="guilty">

 

[jrayn]

I also meant to add that I have been reading a book about Marcus Tullius Cicero and their are a lot of parallel comparisons of US and Rome it was "falling".<br>
It is interesting how their seem to be "steps" to a fall of a society that are repeated over and over!

 

[wytchywoman]

Wow, that article was frightening, elightening, and frightening all at the same time. Couple that with a bumper sticker I saw awhile ago that said basically " When fascism comes to America it will be carrying a bible and drapped in the american flag". So I will echo another PP, what can we do? What action can we take other than continuing to speak out against Bush?

 

[angelpie545]

What I find most frightening is that most Americans refuse to even acknowledge that this is happening. If we act now, I believe that we can save this nation-but that is only going to happen if people open their eyes to reality.

 

[MillingNome]

Here's a link to 12 signs:<br><br><a href="http://www.mvp-seattle.com/pages/pageFascism.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mvp-seattle.com/pages/pageFascism.htm</a><br><br>
I like the pics.<br><br><br><br>
Here's one more:<br><br><a href="http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm" target="_blank">http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm</a><br><br>
With comments similiar to op's link.<br><br><br><br>
And, just in case you're bored this is related and one of the most powerful things I've ever read. It's a must read:<br><br><a href="http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html" target="_blank">http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html</a><br><br>
Here's a clip from it:<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest... ...But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.</td>
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[SirPentor]

No, no, no. You don't understand. They only go after bad guys!!!

 

[JessicaS]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>SirPentor</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7939981"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">No, no, no. You don't understand. They only go after bad guys!!!</div>
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Uh oh..I have on a decepticon T-shirt. I am in trouble now <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hide.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hide">:

 

[SirPentor]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>abimommy</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7940041"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Uh oh..I have on a decepticon T-shirt. I am in trouble now <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hide.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hide">:</div>
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You just became significantly hotter in my eyes...

 

[JessicaS]

Yay! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol">

 

[merpk]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>iamthesmilingone</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7939512"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">And, just in case you're bored this is related and one of the most powerful things I've ever read. It's a must read:<br><br><a href="http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html" target="_blank">http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html</a><br><br>
Here's a clip from it:</div>
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<br>
Yes, it's powerful, but it's a different thing. When Hitler was elected chancellor in 1933, "Mein Kampf" was already published. In case you're never read it, he spelled out his racial theories and views about Jews and what should be done with them. There's no misunderstanding or pulling the wool over anyone's eyes involved. There's no way to misinterpret what Hitler said and say, oh, I didn't know.<br><br><br>
There are many ways to interpret all the points of the Guardian article linked in the OP. And for whatever I think of this administration (which starts from the point that I don't believe it was legally elected in the first place), I just don't see fascism around the corner. Or around the block or even across town.<br><br><br><br><br><br>
IMO fearmongering is alive and well by leaders on both sides of this political divide (divide? More like chasm.) Which also makes it hard to see the baseline truth in it all. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">

 

[Marisol]

I've been thinking about this thread for much of the day. Something in the article strikes me as just too simplistic, but I can't quite put my finger on it.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>jrayn</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7937014"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I also meant to add that I have been reading a book about Marcus Tullius Cicero and their are a lot of parallel comparisons of US and Rome it was "falling".<br>
It is interesting how their seem to be "steps" to a fall of a society that are repeated over and over!</div>
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And this unsettled me even more. You know, the same comparison with Rome was made <a href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/07/22/ED78905.DTL" target="_blank">during the Nixon administration</a>, and came to naught.<br><br>
I'm no fan of Bush, but by drawing these sorts of loaded parallels, we are doing ourselves no favors and are actually ascribing a level of power to him that he doesn't really have. In other words, we're playing into his hands.

 

[Unagidon]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Yes, it's powerful, but it's a different thing. When Hitler was elected chancellor in 1933, "Mein Kampf" was already published. In case you're never read it, he spelled out his racial theories and views about Jews and what should be done with them. There's no misunderstanding or pulling the wool over anyone's eyes involved. There's no way to misinterpret what Hitler said and say, oh, I didn't know.</td>
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Hitler of course is most closely associated with the kind of modern radical nationalism we are talking about here (and technically, what we are talking about is "national socialism", not fascism. And I would agree with people like the historian/philosopher John Lukacs, who says that national socialism would have arisen without Hitler, but World War 2 would not have happened without Hitler.<br><br>
But that's the point. Radical Nationalist movements were springing up all over the place in Europe, Asia, and the Americas even when Hitler was still just a disgruntled veteran living in a slum rooming house. Radical Nationalism is a product of a fragmenting modernity and was not the product of one evil man. So it is in fact something that we need to keep an eye out for. We can't say that it doesn't or can't exist just because we can't locate a Hitler.<br><br>
It has lain dormant as a tendency for fifty years. The disquieting thing about it in the United States now is that we are seeing radical nationalists (calling themselves "conservatives") aligning themselves with people who want to promote an equally radical expansion of presidential power. The connection between these two groups is not yet quite forged in steel, as the elections of last November showed. But I think it was a closer call than most people think. Had this administration not failed so utterly with Iraq, I believe that the Republican Party would be in power today and the remaking of our government institutions in support of a unified party apparatus under a small group of unyielding leaders in support of their absolute power would be continuing.<br><br>
Right now, what we see is a setback for this movement. But it is definitely there.<br><br>
(And for those who think that Radical Nationalism is just some sort of evil philosophy rather than a true social movement, I would point out that when Nazism collapsed, thousands of people committed suicide. When Communism collapsed, no one did. The radical evil that was Hitler cast a shadow on Radical Nationalism, but this is why we see so many people working to deny the Holocaust and other attrocities; to either separate Hitler from the movement or to separate the attrocities from Hitler.)

 

[eco_mama]

<a href="http://www.santafehemp.com/cgi-bin/web_store/web_store.cgi?page=clothing/politees.html" target="_blank">http://www.santafehemp.com/cgi-bin/w.../politees.html</a><br><br>
i have this shirt. you have to scroll down to see it. it reads "fascism sucks" and on the back give the "early warning signs" of fascism.<br><br>
it's all so very true.

 

[jrayn]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Marisol</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7941801"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I've been thinking about this thread for much of the day. Something in the article strikes me as just too simplistic, but I can't quite put my finger on it.<br><br><br><br>
And this unsettled me even more. You know, the same comparison with Rome was made <a href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/07/22/ED78905.DTL" target="_blank">during the Nixon administration</a>, and came to naught.<br><br>
I'm no fan of Bush, but by drawing these sorts of loaded parallels, we are doing ourselves no favors and are actually ascribing a level of power to him that he doesn't really have. In other words, we're playing into his hands.</div>
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Actually the main point of the book was that there was too few people that were willing to DO anything but just be content with how their lives were, they didn't want to disrupt their home life.<br>
People complained for 100s of years and no one DID anything, by the time Marcus Cicero came to be, it was too late he realizes this later in his life that there were just too many corrupted citizens, too many content, materialistic people it was an impossible feat to SAVE ROME....<br>
They complained about their government but only a few spoke out, most of those that spoke out died violently which really has a way of.... quieting everyone else....<br>
The masses were occupied with their daily lives the free activities the government provided - circus, gladiator and wrestling shows, actors etc to be concerned with the governmental affairs.<br>
There were SO many of these content people that even though there were a small hand full of people who weren't content, it was too late, there were too many that just didn't care, and so Rome continued to fall.<br>
To support a tyrant is exactly what they were doing, why should we support a tyrant???? That is not playing into his hands....<br>
Why would a leader want anything but support... that is a leader's dream come true! Look at how hard the communist governments ingrain their citizen's support! The children from birth were/are raised to love their leader, they aren't taught nursery rhymes, but patriotic songs, I know in Russia people would have framed photos of Lenin in their homes. Anything but patriotism was punishable.<br><br>
The people that are saying that this war is justifiable and that we have a RIGHT to be there are the ones playing into his hands, the people that are sitting back while our government IS making decisions despite what MOST of us don't want, taking advantage of people's tax dollars which for many are WAAAAY too high - similar to Rome, the middle class were hit the hardest...<br>
The people supporting all of THIS are the ones playing into his hands....<br><br>
MOST of our population are just too content and they don't want to disrupt their content lives and families and possessions to do ANYTHING.... then there are others, who just don't know what to do...<br>
I think that is where the power is now, bureaucracy and our leaders locations are made so that people DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO- our leaders are inaccessible, our government IS too powerful, the government now has the legal power to declare marshal law on its own citizens.... thanks to the Patriot Act. There are too few people that have the charisma and courage to get a group of people to do something and even then, people have to be able to travel extreme distances to reach those in power... for a protest, that is the only thing I can think of that people do, and does that really do anything??? I don't know.<br>
I don't see how supporting them would be helping anything.<br>
That article said that when people rebelled the leader sent troops against them!!! Of course they aren't going to support their leader or the army, they lost the power their constitution says they were supposed to have, the government is supposed to be for the people. It eroded then, it erodes now.

 

[Marisol]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>jrayn</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7953128"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">To support a tyrant is exactly what they were doing, why should we support a tyrant???? That is not playing into his hands....<br>
Why would a leader want anything but support... that is a leader's dream come true!</div>
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A malevolent leader wants your fear, actually. Support is nice, but support relies on rational thought and as such can change over time. Fear has a staying power like nothing else.<br><br>
When we start seriously comparing the 7 years of constitution-chipping that Bush has done to the multi-century systemic problems of Rome or the incredible brutality of Hitler and Mussolini, we set Bush up as a larger-than-life boogeyman. We invoke the specter of some very deep and serious collective fears there. And to what end? So we can have more company while we all wring our hands?<br><br>
Pshaw. Don't legitimize them by giving them your fear.

 

[MountainLaurel]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>wytchywoman</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7938851"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Wow, that article was frightening, elightening, and frightening all at the same time. Couple that with a bumper sticker I saw awhile ago that said basically " When fascism comes to America it will be carrying a bible and drapped in the american flag". So I will echo another PP, what can we do? What action can we take other than continuing to speak out against Bush?</div>
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My husband has that on his car. It's actually a quote by Sinclair Lewis, who wrote an incredible satire about fascism called "It Can't Happen Here."

 

[jrayn]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Marisol</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7954388"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">When we start seriously comparing the 7 years of constitution-chipping that Bush has done to the multi-century systemic problems of Rome or the incredible brutality of Hitler and Mussolini, we set Bush up as a larger-than-life boogeyman. We invoke the specter of some very deep and serious collective fears there. And to what end? So we can have more company while we all wring our hands?<br><br>
Pshaw. Don't legitimize them by giving them your fear.</div>
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That is how it happens though... things are slowly being chipped away. Bush would not be the only one that is guilty of this. It isn't fear either it is disgust and unrest. "When a nation becomes so demoralized and corrupt and angerless as Rome, then that nation is lost forever" --Cicero<br>
We haven't reached a fear point yet.. the purpose of attempting to educate people with those types of comparisons IS to spark interest and compassion so that they will want to stop it.<br>
So I guess people should deny it is happening and that is better then realizing the truth? Or just realize that it is happening but still support the government b/c after all that is our government of the "greatest nation on earth" and it isn't as bad as it was with Hitler.<br>
If we don't learn from history then the same mistakes will continue to happen... and they do all over the world, why would we be exempt?<br>
Here is another good quote: "Why do men deceive themselves that the past is not the present, the future the past? Has it not been said that the nation that does not learn from history is doomed to repeat its mistakes?"<br><br>
It has become apparent that most people have much better or more pleasant things to do then learn their rights, realize the situation here.<br>
Most people aren't worried about what is happening in the US... Bush has MANY MANY supporters.<br>
We are in the minority, we are called crazy conspiracy theorists and not taken seriously even though much of the evidence is available, THAT is what the administration wants, they want to make those against them look like fools.<br><br>
Maybe if more people DID stop and take time to read about what has been happening and compare to historical events, then they would try to do something. The fact is, most aren't interested and the task is too overwhelming.

 

[MillingNome]

But fear is such a strong emotion and one that imo, does not suit a dictator well... well at least when it is directed at them. If there is a high level of fear, there will always be those few and brave that will rise and fight against it. No, it is better to focus the fear outside, as in Germany of the 1930's. They were beaten and wanted something to believe in. They rallied around Hitler because, in part, their fear of some conspiracy was enough for them to turn a blind eye. And perhaps we may not be a fascist country in America a this moment. But dear gawd do I hear an awful chiseling noise.