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I was looking up some of the reactions to the DTaP vaccine & found on the website <a href="http://www.drugs.com" target="_blank">www.drugs.com</a> that it lists for Infanrix "Sudden Infant Death Syndrome" as an adverse reaction. Thought that was odd that they would list it even though everything I've read says that SIDS is NOT related to vaccines!<br><br>
If you go to <a href="http://www.drugs.com/ppa/diphtheria-tetanus-toxoids-acellular-pertussis-vaccine-dtap.html" target="_blank">http://www.drugs.com/ppa/diphtheria-...cine-dtap.html</a> & scroll down to where it says "Adverse Reactions" & then to "Miscellaneous" under Infanrix it's right there.<br><br>
Not sure how reputable Drugs.com is but still found it weird.
 

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What I think is particularly interesting is that if SIDS was not caused by vaccination, why then in Japan have they had no cases of SIDS since they delayed their vaccination schedule until children are 6? I find it very compelling that because our country supplies vaccines, we are ridiculed for delaying vax's but in other countries, it's commendable.<br>
~~*Kristina*~~ wife to Joe [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/kiss.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="kiss">] and expecting [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/pos.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="positive">] [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/babyboy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Babyboy">:] 10-18-07 planning a [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/homebirth.jpg" style="border:0px solid;" title="Homebirth">] and to [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/bf.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="bf">:] Living [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/goorganic.jpg" style="border:0px solid;" title="go organic">:] and saying [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/signcirc1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="sign circ">] [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/nocirc.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="nocirc">] [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/saynovax.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="no vax">]<br><a href="http://www.totsites.com/tot/3seawell" target="_blank">www.totsites.com/tot/3seawell</a>
 

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This is included in GSKs product information for Infanrix in a section called Postmarketing Reports (page 18). They include reactions for which more than 20 incidents are reported worldwide (some more serious reactions are included with less than 20 reports). It is a voluntary reporting system.<br><br>
And of course GSK has a disclaimer at the bottom of that section that states "These adverse events were reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size; therefore, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequency or establish a causal relationship to vaccination."<br><br>
<a href="http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_infanrix.pdf" target="_blank">us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_infanrix.pdf</a>
 

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Well - I don't read a lot of stuff that says that SIDS is NOT related to vax. Most doesn't mention it, says that it IS or is ambivelant.<br><br>
But this testimony definately asks the question and asserts that the relationship has never been proven to not exist.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The Committee's conclusions concerning SIDS and DPT vaccine are a case in point. Although they admitted in their review, and I quote, "Prior to the 1960's, little was known about the epidemiology of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS)", they concluded, and again I quote, "Studies showing a temporal relation<br><br>
between these events are consistent with the expected occurrence of SIDS over the age range in which DPT immunization typically occurs". Without information on the background rate of SIDS in historically, socioeconomically, and otherwise comparable never vaccinated groups, data on the expected frequency of SIDS merely reflects its incidence among vaccinated populations, rather than absent vaccinations, and cannot be considered accurate or meaningful. Given that such background information was not presented by the Committee, conclusions about the absence of a relationship between SIDS and vaccination were not justified.</td>
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<a href="http://www.vaccinationnews.com/Authors/SandyMintz/IOMTest1993.htm" target="_blank">http://www.vaccinationnews.com/Autho...OMTest1993.htm</a>
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>jkseawell</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9094729"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">What I think is particularly interesting is that if SIDS was not caused by vaccination, why then in Japan have they had no cases of SIDS since they delayed their vaccination schedule until children are 6? I find it very compelling that because our country supplies vaccines, we are ridiculed for delaying vax's but in other countries, it's commendable.<br>
~~*Kristina*~~ wife to Joe [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/kiss.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="kiss">] and expecting [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/pos.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="positive">] [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/babyboy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Babyboy">:] 10-18-07 planning a [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/homebirth.jpg" style="border:0px solid;" title="Homebirth">] and to [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/bf.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="bf">:] Living [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/goorganic.jpg" style="border:0px solid;" title="go organic">:] and saying [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/signcirc1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="sign circ">] [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/nocirc.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="nocirc">] [<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/saynovax.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="no vax">]<br><a href="http://www.totsites.com/tot/3seawell" target="_blank">www.totsites.com/tot/3seawell</a></div>
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The Japan schedule is not accurate here nor is the assertion that there are no SIDS cases. That is a Vera Schreibner nugget.<br><br>
SM
 

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<span style="font-family:Georgia;"><span><i>This is what Dr. Shiebner has to say on it now -<br><br></i></span></span>
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;"><span style="font-family:Georgia;"><span><i>Quote:</i></span></span></div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Far more significantly however, the overall infant mortality improved: Japan zoomed from 17th to first place in infant mortality in the world. This means that Japan moved from a very high bracket to the lowest infant mortality rate in the world (Jenny Scott 1990). Interestingly, Noble et al. (1987) who spent some 2 weeks in Japan studying the acellular whooping vaccine there, wrote: "It is difficult to exclude pertussis vaccines as a causal factor even when other etiologies are suggested, particularly when the adverse events occur in close temporal association with vaccination".</td>
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<span style="font-family:Georgia;"><span><i>More here -<br><a href="http://www.vaccination.inoz.com/jsids.html" target="_blank">http://www.vaccination.inoz.com/jsids.html</a><br><br>
Thoughts anyone? I have never known what to make of the Japan/SIDS thing.<br><br>
Carly.</i></span></span>
 

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Well, Shiebner at least gives sources there. I've personally written off the whole Japan/SIDS/DTP thing as an urban legend for the moment since I can't find any raw data to support those claims. (And I've looked.)<br><br>
I'm curious about the Cherry paper she sites, but without a quote I can't tell what he was actually saying.<br><br>
I can't get the fulltext of what he says here:<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Cherry et al. (1988) found it "instructive" that the entity of cot death "disappeared".</td>
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Here's the abstract, though:<br><a href="http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/81/6/933" target="_blank">http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...tract/81/6/933</a>
 

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There was an interesting discussion of the Japanese business in the Donegan GMC trial transcript. If I ever have time again, I'll try to track it down.<br><br>
Does anyone have a copy of her original expert report that got her into all the trouble? Since the trial was critiquing her discussion of the Japanese stuff, I bet her report would have a review of what happened and the references she based it on. I've heard that copies of this expert report are circulating around the Internet...there was a newspaper story attacking her for "junk" science and complaining that parents were reading her expert report...which of course was all nonsense. But I haven't seen it.
 

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<span><i><span style="font-family:Georgia;">Well, from that abstract you posted MK, Cherry sounds incredibly PRO pertussis vaccination. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="rolleyes"><br><br>
It would be great to get to the truth on this matter!<br><br>
Carly.</span></i></span>
 

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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Deborah</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9098182"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">There was an interesting discussion of the Japanese business in the Donegan GMC trial transcript. If I ever have time again, I'll try to track it down.<br><br>
Does anyone have a copy of her original expert report that got her into all the trouble? Since the trial was critiquing her discussion of the Japanese stuff, I bet her report would have a review of what happened and the references she based it on. I've heard that copies of this expert report are circulating around the Internet...there was a newspaper story attacking her for "junk" science and complaining that parents were reading her expert report...which of course was all nonsense. But I haven't seen it.</div>
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<a href="http:/vaccine/donegan3.html" target="_blank">http://www.*********/vaccine/donegan3.html</a><br><br>
Okay. It is day 3 when the expert witness for the GMC, Dr. Elliman, is being cross-examined by Donegan's barrister, Mr. Stern. The passage starts like this:<br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Can we move to the next point, please, page 18 at the bottom of your report, moving over to page 19. This is dealing with page 21, paragraph 3, of Dr Donegan’s report. This is the Japanese study, which may or may not be of any relevance but at any rate we will deal with it swiftly, if we can. It reads, in the first sentence or so:</td>
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Quoting the whole thing would be way too long and a violation of the copyright rules, but if you download the transcript and search for the passage and then read until they move on, you'll get a pretty straightforward account of what happened in Japan.<br><br>
Briefly: babies were dying and parents and doctors were thinking it might be the pertussis vax. So they stopped vaxing. Then they started again and moved the age up to two years. After a year or two the DTap vaccine was introduced and eventually they started vaxing infants again. During the period when infants were not being vaxed 41 babies died of pertussis.<br><br>
The debate is whether the overall infant death rate dropped or not. After reading the passage it sounds to me as though it did, but I'm not sure. Anyway, the GMC panel did conclude that Donegan did not misrepresent stuff in her statement on this, or the other points.
 

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<span style="font-family:Georgia;"><span><i>Thanks for that Deborah - fascinating!<br><br>
Carly <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"></i></span></span>
 

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OK, Here is the 'sleight of hand' that Vera Schreibner (micro paleontologist by the way) dealt with Japan and SIDS: Japan has a Vaccine Compensation Program (similar to that of NVIC in the U.S.) and would give compensation to those that had an infant under the age of 12 months that died of SIDS with a temporal relationship to the DTP vaccine. The Japanese Ministry of Health moved the recommended age for DTP vaccination to 2 years old and <i>voila</i> no more compensations for cot-deaths with a temporal relationship to DTP. That doesn't mean that the SIDS rate decreased, SIDS had disappeared as an <i>entity</i> of the compensation scheme because how can you compensate for a vaccine-related death if no vaccine was administered?<br><br>
Both Cherry et al. (1988) and Noble et al. (1987) alluded to this but V. Schreibner chose to either mindlessly mangle select excerpts from those articles or maliciously misquoted them. It is also worthy to note that when DTP immunisation was given to infants under 3 months the pertussis rate was 4/100,000 in under 1 year-olds and went up to 20/100,000 in the years following the shift to DTP immunisation of 2 year-olds.<br><br>
SM
 

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Hi SM,<br>
did you actually read the section of the transcript? I am not interested in Vera's version of events, but this transcript is the first place I've seen that lays out the whole sequence and explains what seems to have happened.<br><br>
And yes, I know a court transcript is not peer-reviewed.
 

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It is strange... because isn't SIDS defined as an <b>unexplainable</b> death? Like they only call it SIDS if they can't find any other reason through autopsy etc?<br><br>
Or maybe they include deaths due to vaccination in there because the companies refuses to take responsibility for them and just calls it "SIDS"...
 

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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Deborah</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9112912"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Hi SM,<br>
did you actually read the section of the transcript? I am not interested in Vera's version of events, but this transcript is the first place I've seen that lays out the whole sequence and explains what seems to have happened.<br><br>
And yes, I know a court transcript is not peer-reviewed.</div>
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Deborah, I have no problem with court transcripts as long as 'both sides' are presented and cross-examined. I will read your link.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>blissful_maia</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9112970"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">It is strange... because isn't SIDS defined as an <b>unexplainable</b> death? Like they only call it SIDS if they can't find any other reason through autopsy etc?<br><br>
Or maybe they include deaths due to vaccination in there because the companies refuses to take responsibility for them and just calls it "SIDS"...</div>
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Yes, SIDS is a bit of a 'catch-all' for unexplained infant death and if a cause of death can be determined it is not SIDS. Vaccine manufacturers have nothing to do with autopsy results so that is a moot point. Don't mistake compensation with actual cause of death as in the case of Japan, their compensation pay-out for vaccine-related incidents are much more liberal than NVIC's. A mere temporal relationship only needs to be determined in the absence of any other explanation.<br><br>
SM
 
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