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Discussion Starter #1
There are so many stories like this one
http://sanevax.org/i-want-my-daughters-life-back-the-way-it-was-before-gardasil/

http://truthaboutgardasil.org/injuries/ with stories from many families

http://www.mygardasilstory.com/about_my_vaccine_story with stories from many families

http://www.gardasil-and-unexplained-deaths.com/victims

Questions:

1) Why are medical professionals unable to convince these families that the problems following vaccination are not connected to the vaccine?

2) Why are medical professionals having such difficulty treating these cases? If the illnesses in question are not new and unusual, but conditions that regularly occur in this population at the level being seen, doctors should have some idea of what they are and how they can be treated.
 
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Discussion Starter #2
To save time for the pro-Gardasil side, here is a pretty good defense of the vaccine by Skeptical Raptor http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skep...ne-stop-shop-science-myth-debunking-gardasil/

He cites all the usual studies (they are good), debunks the few critical studies (they are crap), explains that the Japanese can't do arithmetic, etc.

...and second, that the invented concerns about the HPV quadrivalent vaccine, promulgated by the usual suspects in the antivaccination world, makes people think that there is a clear risk from the vaccine which is not balanced by preventing cancer decades from now. It’s frustrating.
This bit is quite puzzling. All of the links I provided in my first post are from parents who took their daughters (or sons) to get the vaccine. In other words, NOT the "usual suspects in the antivaccination world" at all. True, various vaccine critics have used these stories from former pro-vaccine parents to attack the HPV vaccines, but they didn't make up the stories. For some reason, the HPV vaccines are "turning" pro-vaccine people into anti-vaccine people in a measurable number of cases.

Why is SR pretending that it is anti-vaccine people who are creating the noise about these vaccines?
 
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As a very casual observer of the Gardasil problem, I have noticed that the very athletic, outgoing, energetic girls are the ones who usually have problems post-Gardasil. Why can't the medical profession take that into account when trying to figure out what is happening post-Gardasil with these girls?

Editted to say that I did NOT notice that the very athletic, outgoing, energetic girls who had problems post-Gardasil were from fundamentalist, prudish, non-science backgrounds. Their families trusted their doctors and took the advice of their physician and they are the ones who are sharing their experience now because their doctors will not listen to them.
 

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Pro disease people do not listen to logic. This is an unholy alliance of people who are ignorant of science and fundamentalists prudes who think that HPV vaccines makes girls promiscuous.
 

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So we delay and select vax at my house. Even after my daughter had a pretty serious life altering vaccine injury.

We don't do the Gardisil. We've personally known two very athletic girls who became chronically fatigued and live their lives mostly on couches now. After the second shot of Gardisil. What a waste of two young lives.

And for me, not worth the risk that my vaccine injured daughter will have a worse life after these shots than before.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Pro disease people do not listen to logic. This is an unholy alliance of people who are ignorant of science and fundamentalists prudes who think that HPV vaccines makes girls promiscuous.
That is a wonderful explanation Alenushka! So the parents who vaxed their kids with Gardasil and then saw problems are the ones who are ignorant of science?

I know about the fundamentalist prudes.

Where do the Japanese fit into this explanation? Ignorant of science doesn't quite work and they may be prudes (anyone know?) but generally they aren't likely to be fundamentalists in the US sense.

And then there are those Danish doctors. Ignorant of science doesn't work all that well for that group, either, and as Danes they are most unlikely to be either fundamentalists or prudes (of course all things are possible, but I have a hard time stretching my mind around an entire group of Danish fundamentalist prudish medical doctors).
 

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Where do the Japanese fit into this explanation? Ignorant of science doesn't quite work and they may be prudes (anyone know?) but generally they aren't likely to be fundamentalists in the US sense.
A few years back I remember an article on how the men openly looked at porn on the trains so I'm going to go with probably not prudes. Also, Japan apparently has the highest percentage of atheists.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
A few years back I remember an article on how the men openly looked at porn on the trains so I'm going to go with probably not prudes. Also, Japan apparently has the highest percentage of atheists.
I don't think the explanations offered fit, then.

Skeptical Raptor said it was an arithmetic error. If that was all, then a polite explanation from WHO, or Merck would have sorted it out and they would be back to using the vaccine.
@Alenushka offered up anti-science which doesn't apply to the Japanese. They are generally pro-science.

And religious fundamentalism would have to be politically powerful enough to stop a vaccine, which also doesn't fit.

We need another explanation.
 
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To save time for the pro-Gardasil side, here is a pretty good defense of the vaccine by Skeptical Raptor http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skep...ne-stop-shop-science-myth-debunking-gardasil/

He cites all the usual studies (they are good), debunks the few critical studies (they are crap), explains that the Japanese can't do arithmetic, etc.



This bit is quite puzzling. All of the links I provided in my first post are from parents who took their daughters (or sons) to get the vaccine. In other words, NOT the "usual suspects in the antivaccination world" at all. True, various vaccine critics have used these stories from former pro-vaccine parents to attack the HPV vaccines, but they didn't make up the stories. For some reason, the HPV vaccines are "turning" pro-vaccine people into anti-vaccine people in a measurable number of cases.

Why is SR pretending that it is anti-vaccine people who are creating the noise about these vaccines?
Well Japan does not have the best track record in regards to properly assessing the risk/benefits of vaccines and disease and are prone to withdrawing vaccines willy-nilly with bad consequences. I'll just copy and pasted what I wrote about it on another thread a while ago here:

No, I would not support efforts to follow Japan's lead (re HPV vaccine). Their decision to withdraw their recommendation has been highly criticized by researchers at Tokyo University and elsewhere as a "failure of governance" for making the decision by a 3:2 vote without presentation of scientific evidence.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(13)61831-0/fulltext

Further, Japan has a pretty terrible history of withdrawing or changing vaccine recommendations without sufficient evidence, resulting in preventable outbreaks and deaths.

For example:

They stopped requiring the rubella vaccine to enter school and also stopped recommending the vaccine to males.

The result was a huge rubella outbreak affecting thousands of people and resulting in dozens of babies being born with congenital rubella syndrome in 2012-2013.

"About 15 000 cases of rubella and 43 cases of congenital rubella syndrome were reported to the National Epidemiological Surveillance of Infectious Diseases between Oct 15, 2012, and March 2, 2014, as a result of the 2012-13 rubella outbreak in Japan.1 This resurgence of rubella has mainly affected adult men aged 35-51 years who had not received routine rubella vaccine during their childhood when only school girls were vaccinated, and men and women aged 24-34 years whose vaccine coverage rates were relatively low.

The lessons learnt from this outbreak can be of value for other countries."

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1724286

They made a similar mistake with the pertussis vaccine:

"In 1974, Japan had a successful pertussis (whooping cough) vaccination program, with nearly 80% of Japanese children vaccinated. That year only 393 cases of pertussis were reported in the entire country, and there were no deaths from pertussis. But then rumors began to spread that pertussis vaccination was no longer needed and that the vaccine was not safe, and by 1976 only 10% of infants were getting vaccinated. In 1979 Japan suffered a major pertussis epidemic, with more than 13,000 cases of whooping cough and 41 deaths. In 1981 the government began vaccinating with acellular pertussis vaccine, and the number of pertussis cases dropped again."

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/why.htm

So yeah... making the argument that because Japan did it that means it's a good idea is not going to hold much weight when discussing vaccine recommendations.
 

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You know who would be dubbed "anti-vaccine" in today's America.......Jonas Salk! He had the galling audacity to participate in a congressional subcommittee hearing in September of '77 and discuss and debate the efficacy and safety of his vaccine as it compared to the live virus polio vaccine. What a prudish, fundamentalist!

Could anything be more prudish then the whole "sex will give you cancer meme"? Sounds like hairy palms/masturbating logic to me. I, for one will be teaching my children about ALL of the possible sexually transmitted diseases the importance of having safe protected sex. I will explain to my daughter the false logic of assuming that the HPV vaccine will mean that she won't get cervical cancer. How unscientific is that?!
 

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Yes, Dr. Jonas Salk and Dr. Albert Sabin had a running disagreement about each other's polio vaccine.

I think they were both correct, don't you?

I recall when the Sabin vaccine hit the market - I was in grammar school, but I wondered WHY, OH WHY if the first polio vaccine worked so well why did we need a second polio vaccine? I seem to recall that Hilary Butler wrote about this subject.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I think, @teacozy, that you are cherry-picking. Japan has also been very smart about some vaccines. They developed the first chickenpox vaccine and used it, quite sensibly, for those who were most vulnerable to chickenpox. In Japan, surrounded by circulating chickenpox, the vaccine maintained immunity well and only one dose was needed, unlike the US, which rather dumbly went for one dose for everyone and had to add a booster after only a few years.

They also developed the aP version of pertussis and were the first to introduce it, where it provided, oddly, quite effective immunity for a number of years. It is now failing in Japan, just as in the US. This makes me suspect that the problem has little to do with the aP vaccine and a lot to do with evolving strains of pertussis.

There is quite a bit being left out of the story about HPV vaccines in Japan. They did stop recommending the vaccine rather abruptly, but the decision was only maintained after there was a scientific meeting which reviewed rather a lot of evidence. I'm sure that the University of Tokyo had a chance to prevent their point of view...

I also note that you don't address the problem of those pro-vaccine parents who represent the central group making most of the noise about the HPV vaccines. If they hadn't been pro, why did they get their kids vaxed?

The reality is that Skeptical Raptor is just making things up.
 

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I do believe that Japan has a separate mumps vaccine, separate from the measles and rubella vaccine.

The MR in Japan is required at 12-14 months.

The mumps vaccine is separate and optional.

http://japanhealthinfo.com/child-health-and-childcare/vaccination/

Yes, Japan has been very smart about its health program and vaccine schedule. Japan started using the aP in 1971. Soon after they delayed the first vaccines to age 2 yrs; their IMR dropped so low that they were #1 and in the top 5 placements for over a decade.

If you look at the abysmal US IMR and MMR, one may wonder why we do not look at how other nations are doing so much better.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Kind of hard to see Japan as stupid about health.
The results surprised even the researchers. To their alarm, they said, they found a "strikingly consistent and pervasive" pattern of poorer health at all stages of life, from infancy to childhood to adolescence to young adulthood to middle and old age. Compared to people in other developed nations, Americans die far more often from injuries and homicides. We suffer more deaths from alcohol and other drugs, and endure some of the worst rates of heart disease, lung disease, obesity, and diabetes.
In this study Japan had the top rank. http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...ankings-of-17-nations-us-is-dead-last/267045/

Vaccines may not have anything to do with our terrible ranking, but it is hard to see them as making anything better in terms of health outcomes.

Japan is screwing up? Ha!
 

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I think in a for-profit healthcare system real, valid, vaccine science doesn't stand a chance.

My rudimentary understanding of the Sabin/Salk debate should have probably prevented me from bringing it up. From what little I know, Sabin's shed while Salk's did not, but Sabin argued his offered better protection. I realize this is a very simplistic reflection on the matter. I am not knowledgeable enough on this subject to offer up an opinion as to who was/wasn't correct. I was mostly trying to make a comment on how, once upon a time, we were able to have conjecture and a consortium of scientists that were able to discuss and debate vaccine science while today we have scientists throwing data away in garbage cans. To disparage, or even question, any vaccine, in any way, is sacrilege in this country. Talk about fundamentalism!

But, @aj, it may make you grin to know that I garnered that tidbit from Mendelsohn. :laugh:
 

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