[Lohagrace]

I am at the end. The end of my rope, my limits, my sanity. My 3 year old has pushed me to the point of screaming and, i'm ashamed to say, hitting. everything she does is rude and horrible. she kicks and hits me all day long. she wont comply with even the most simple request or me telling her to stop doing something. she whines and cries at the drop of a hat about absolutely everything. the worst thing is that she won't go to bed. bedtime is now a 3 hour fight with screaming, doors being held shut, etc. she stopped napping and by 7 is utterly exhausted and STILL insists on this fight every night. i can't take it anymore. my DH is saying "we can NOT parent this way any more (GD/AP)-- our 3 year old is getting the better of us". everything that i believe and have learned contradicts this way of thinking, but i don't know what to do. all i can think about is hitting her--hitting her until she stops. i know it sounds like the worst thing imaginable, but i like i said i am at the END of my rope. the bedtime thing is THE WORST--what am i supposed to do? not have a bedtime, and watch her deterioriate into the worst possible tantrums/meltdowns all night? hold the door shut to her room for hours on end? i suspect that much of it has to do with sleep, but what can i do? i stopped trying to get her to nap when nap turned into a 2 hour battle where i listened to her scream and held her down. now its becoming that way with night-time. even if she screams and cries until 10pm, she still wakes up at 7am and the whole cycle of exhaustion goes on...

please let me have it. i need advice. i need support. i am feeling such intense rage towards her right now it scares me. i feel most days like i don't even love her anymore. our relationship is so adversarial that i don't even want to be around her. i wish she had never been born.

 

[moondiapers]

Is it possible you are waiting too long and she needs an earlier bedtime? She may be getting her "second wind" so to speak. If you're feeling rage towards her, she feels that....then emulates it by raging at you. It's a vicious circle that you need to break some how. Is there anyone that can take her for the day or overnight so you can recharge?

 

[elizawill]

as for bedtime, do you have an established routine? my dd really needs to take time going to bed. we have bath time, a 30 minute video with a snack, brush our teeth and go potty, then we tell a bedtime story with prayers. it sounds like a lot....but this routine is really needed to make things run smoothly. i also agree with pp about her actual bedtime. maybe it should be earlier??? hang in there mama! when my dd is really acting awful, sometimes her behavior has an underlying message & there is a need she has but lacks the communication to voice it properly (sometimes she's just being an overtired stinker though).

 

[Tinas3muskateers]

First I want to tell you I am so there with you in how you feel right now. Have you ever tired laying down with her? Will she fall asleep like that? I am sure you have. Thats what we have to do or he will scream for hours on end so we dont even go there anymore lol.

 

[Treasuremapper]

s:

I think that you have identified a couple of issues here. Since you asked for advice, I'm going to ask a few questions to help figure out what is going on. I know you said you are AP, but you also said you are "holding the door shut on her room." I am wondering if that is at the bottom of everything going on -- that all of you are sleep deprived. Are you doing family bed? Have you tried it? That's one of the basic principles of AP, so if your goal is to practice AP, try out the family bed. Is she still nursing?

Just with my kids, we cosleep in the same room, and the bedtime struggles have been minimal. We go to sleep with them, and then we creep out once they are asleep, and then, later, for actual sleep, we creep back in. We use blackout curtains and a white noise machine. We have a big kingsized bed with a toddler bed on either side. Our three year old falls asleep in my arms in the king bed and she has not used her toddler bed yet. Our five year old just started sleeping in her toddler bed a few months ago.

My guess is that once you are all asleep and happy in the bed, you and your dh can slip out and go about your business. Once your child and you and your dh have some sleep, you will be amazed at how your mood and mental clarity can improve.

I also suggest that you consider that once your daughter is asleep (hopefully curled in your arms) that you might want to whisper your love for her into her ears and let her know she is safe with you. Then you can fall asleep right next to her. I am willing to bet that one week of blessed sleep will make a world of difference for all of you.

 

[hipumpkins]

Rescue remedy now makes a sleep formula. My DD takes it at night and it has cut down on the nighttime gymnastics drastically. this is not to say it knocks her out no matter what...it has to be bedtime but it really calms her and stops the incessant chatter and jumping. (BTW I got it whole foods)
I understand your nightime rage I have been there. hitting her will only make you feel guilty and not really solve any problems. If you must hit somehting...try the bed or the pillow for now but do not hit your daughter. IT WILL NOT HELP. Everyone is overtired and that is why you are at a loss. you are not thinking clearly b/c you are tired.
When your daughter does finally fall asleep..go to sleep yourself. I know this is a bummer b/c you are wanting time alone but for a bit just catch up on your sleep than you can reevaluate the whole situation from a fresh perspective.
good luck..and many hugs to you.

 

[elizawill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treasuremapper s: I think that you have identified a couple of issues here. Since you asked for advice, I'm going to ask a few questions to help figure out what is going on. I know you said you are AP, but you also said you are "holding the door shut on her room." I am wondering if that is at the bottom of everything going on -- that all of you are sleep deprived. Are you doing family bed? Have you tried it? That's one of the basic principles of AP, so if your goal is to practice AP, try out the family bed. Is she still nursing? Just with my kids, we cosleep in the same room, and the bedtime struggles have been minimal. We go to sleep with them, and then we creep out once they are asleep, and then, later, for actual sleep, we creep back in. We use blackout curtains and a white noise machine. We have a big kingsized bed with a toddler bed on either side. Our three year old falls asleep in my arms in the king bed and she has not used her toddler bed yet. Our five year old just started sleeping in her toddler bed a few months ago. My guess is that once you are all asleep and happy in the bed, you and your dh can slip out and go about your business. Once your child and you and your dh have some sleep, you will be amazed at how your mood and mental clarity can improve. I also suggest that you consider that once your daughter is asleep (hopefully curled in your arms) that you might want to whisper your love for her into her ears and let her know she is safe with you. Then you can fall asleep right next to her. I am willing to bet that one week of blessed sleep will make a world of difference for all of you.

we don't co-sleep at all and never have unless my cuties are sick or something (but i'm not an all AP mama), but this post reminds me of another option that may work for you. my son (who is also 3) falls asleep every night in my bed. later on, my husband moves him to his bedroom. it's always a smooth transition and he never wakes up. my ds loves the idea of falling asleep on mommy's pillow and he thinks it is such an awesome treat. also, my dd will sleep with one of my shirts sometimes. haha, i know it sounds weird, but she will pick out a shirt of mine or one of my husband's and she loves to cuddle them like blankets. if she is having a hard time ever falling asleep...we just give her a shirt

we leave the hall light on and the door open while she falls asleep too...so she doesn't feel closed off from us.

 

[chfriend]

Sleepless in America might make a good read.

 

[Treasuremapper]

How far apart are your kids in age? Mine are 22 months apart. Be aware of possible feelings of hurt by the older child about the baby.

 

[elizawill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treasuremapper How far apart are your kids in age? Mine are 22 months apart. Be aware of possible feelings of hurt by the older child about the baby.

my kids are 2 1/2 years apart....but my dd has no interest in sleeping in my bed....otherwise she could fall asleep there too!!

 

[LynnS6]

I second "Sleepless in America" - it's a great book, and given your daughter's lack of sleep, probably explains the majority of her horrendous behavior right now. You can't make any judgments on your parenting philosophy with a chronically overtired child.

Suggestions:
Can you institute a 'quiet time' in the afternoon where she sits down and does something quiet - maybe put a CD on and give her some books so that she has something to do. The rule is she has to stay on her bed and quiet until the CD quits playing. I'll fully confess that this doesn't work for me at home, but it works like a charm for dd on daycare days. About 1 day in 3 she doesn't nap, and 2 days she does (she goes MWF).

ROOM DARKENING SHADES might keep her in bed longer. Though, if you want to get her to bed earlier, she should keep her same wake up time.

Try moving bedtime back by 15 minutes a day. With the complete routine, etc. starting 15 minutes earlier. She might need to start getting ready for bed at 6:30 pm or something ridiculous like that.

Can you (or better yet dh!) sit by her bed until she falls asleep? That's what we do with our kids. I bring a book, dh (when he doesn't have mono like he does now) brings his laptop. If I view this as a time to relax and chat a bit with my kids as they fall asleep, it's not too bad. If I'm stressed about something else, it's pretty hard on me.

 

[Lohagrace]

Thanks for all of your ideas. I was definitely typing in the heat of the (ongoing...and going...and going) moment and needed to vent. i know spanking and yelling isn't going to solve anything. but sometimes...you just get so fed up.

my husband and i just had a long chat, and much of it was centered around our expectations. My father said something interesting to me the other day, which was that anger/frustration is something that arises out of expectations. And i now see that much of my anger has to do with my expectations in two areas:
1. Her emotional/behavioral development
2. My needs/wants

We do sleep in a family bed. she has a room with a bed in it with her stuff, but doesn't sleep there much. The kids are about 2.75 years apart. we are lucky that the baby does not wake her up, even when he cries. She just sleeps though it. the problem lately is that he is going to bed at 7pm sharp because that is just when he is out. he is so easy to get to sleep, its not even funny. when this happens, she gets read to in her bed instead of ours so as to not wake the baby. often, lately, she has said she wants to stay and sleep in her own bed at that point. its much easier to just do it in our bed, but i just lay with her in her bed and say "lets go to sleep." when we go to lay down (she does think that i go to bed with her every night) regardless of where it is, she starts up with the "i don't want to go to bed" and gets up and tries to leave. my husband and i have initiated a plan for future bedtimes. we have been trying to get her to go to bed early, and when we do this (like tonight at 6:45 because she was really tired, but also more because we wanted "our time" to ourselves) she resists going to sleep even more. when she gets up at 7pm and says "im not tired. i don't want to go to bed" maybe...maybe she isnt? i know its likely that she is, but if she says this at 9pm, its less likely to be true and she is also less likely to fight. if you could have seen the fight tonight--its hard to believe a very, very tired child could put up such a fight. anyway, so our new plan is this: no more trying to get her to bed before 8pm. at 8, we start the bedtime routene (yes, we have a long one that involves lots of books, telling stories, back rubs, etc.) and if, after stories, she persists in the "i dont want to go to bed" thing, my husband will play memory game or hi-ho cherry-o or something with her in bed. we'll just work on keeping her calm, relaxed and in bed until she is ready to fall asleep. the fight is just so not worth it. i totally lost my S**T tonight in the worst way. like...out of control parent. it is the worst thing in the world to look back and say "i was OUT OF CONTROL". we ask them to 'use their words' and all that, and then we have tantrums, totally lose it, too. i don't know how i can expect her to not freak out, when i do it..

i put sleepless in america on my hold list for the library.

so anyway, back to the expectations. i have been angry at her for several things, which are just totally unrealistic expectations on my part. for example, expecting her to not be totally selfish. why would i expect that of a 3 year old? also, expecting her to understand my feelings. again, why? expecting her to understand various things a 3 year old cant, such as patience, time, delaying gratification, controlling her emotions, asking her to explain behavior, etc. an example is today my dad let her play with a porcelain doll that my grandma made. not wanting to instigate a tantrum, i let her play with it gently. when i told her that she couldn't take it outside, she got mad and threw it on the floor and broke part of it. so i was upset. but i was totally unrealistic in several ways. 1)i should have just taken it away immediately. she should not have been playing with it. period. 2)she probably wasn't trying to break it. she threw it down because she was mad that i wouldn't let her take it outside, and it broke. 3)getting mad when she didn't understand why i was sad/upset about it. 4)staying mad when she wouldn't apologize
all of these things are founded on totally unrealistic expectations: that she understands that porcelain can break (even when i explained it was fragile); understands that other people have feelings just like hers (and that what she experiences are "feelings"); understands the idea of a sentimental item with family significance; understands that some 'toys' are not for playing with; can empathize with my feelings; can actually feel "sorry" about something (especially when she totally doesn't understand it); can feel regret/remorse, especially in regards to "making" someone else feel something (especially since she doesn't understand that she can make someone feel a certain way, or that other people do feel.) i see now that i need to lower the bar. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay lower. lower it so low that i can't be frustrated because what i expect is realistic. if she is whining at me, i'm not frustrated because that is just What Three Year Olds Do. not getting frustrated when she has a tantrum about getting her way, because that is Just What Three Year Olds Do. i can feel frustrated, but it wont be as bad because i won't be compounding it in my mind asking "why doesn't she care about what I feel?!" or "she is so selfish!" or other silly unrealistic things.

i also need to adjust my expectations about my own desires and getting what i want (for example, getting to watch a movie only made me madder when she wouldn't go to bed tonight). and just realizing that this season of raising really young children will pass, and i will have more me time in the future.

so that's about it...the baby is crying. i will try to write more tomorrow.

 

[Justmee]

. Three is hard. We were having major bedtime issues / overtired / etc. Honestly I was also kind of haphazard in bedtime and getting frustrated and then just trying to put them in bed. Nope, didn't work so well. Here's what does work now.

About 3:30 we clean up the house, everyone, toys away and I do any stray dishes so after supper I don't have a mountain. I help the girls clean up.

3:45 or so we go out to the park for about an hour, come home 4:45 - 5 and the girls look at books or have a little tv

: while I finish getting dinner on the table. Dinner is served around 5 - 5:15.

Bath 5:30 for 15 - 30 minutes. Out of bath, into PJs, brush teeth, story bed. The girls have been OUT by 6:00 - 6:15 since I started this. They were simply overtired (note, they wake up at 6 but they woke up at 6 when they were going to bed at 8 also). When I finish the story and tuck them in I just say time for sleep and goodnight. If they get up and start gettign wild with each other I go in calmly and say time for sleep, lie down, breathe deep etc. They are usually asleep within 10 minutes of my leaving the room. It was taking 2 hours before

:

Good luck

 

[Magella]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lohagrace i have been angry at her for several things, which are just totally unrealistic expectations on my part. for example, expecting her to not be totally selfish. why would i expect that of a 3 year old? also, expecting her to understand my feelings. again, why? expecting her to understand various things a 3 year old cant, such as patience, time, delaying gratification, controlling her emotions, asking her to explain behavior, etc. an example is today my dad let her play with a porcelain doll that my grandma made. not wanting to instigate a tantrum, i let her play with it gently. when i told her that she couldn't take it outside, she got mad and threw it on the floor and broke part of it. so i was upset. but i was totally unrealistic in several ways. 1)i should have just taken it away immediately. she should not have been playing with it. period. 2)she probably wasn't trying to break it. she threw it down because she was mad that i wouldn't let her take it outside, and it broke. 3)getting mad when she didn't understand why i was sad/upset about it. 4)staying mad when she wouldn't apologize all of these things are founded on totally unrealistic expectations: that she understands that porcelain can break (even when i explained it was fragile); understands that other people have feelings just like hers (and that what she experiences are "feelings"); understands the idea of a sentimental item with family significance; understands that some 'toys' are not for playing with; can empathize with my feelings; can actually feel "sorry" about something (especially when she totally doesn't understand it); can feel regret/remorse, especially in regards to "making" someone else feel something (especially since she doesn't understand that she can make someone feel a certain way, or that other people do feel.) i see now that i need to lower the bar. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay lower. lower it so low that i can't be frustrated because what i expect is realistic. if she is whining at me, i'm not frustrated because that is just What Three Year Olds Do. not getting frustrated when she has a tantrum about getting her way, because that is Just What Three Year Olds Do. i can feel frustrated, but it wont be as bad because i won't be compounding it in my mind asking "why doesn't she care about what I feel?!" or "she is so selfish!" or other silly unrealistic things. i also need to adjust my expectations about my own desires and getting what i want (for example, getting to watch a movie only made me madder when she wouldn't go to bed tonight). and just realizing that this season of raising really young children will pass, and i will have more me time in the future.

I think these are very helpful insights. Three is just plain a tough age. They seem so old, but they're still so young and there's so much they still don't understand. They have very limited patience, and still pretty limited impulse control. And they want to be so independent, autonomy is so important, and they seem to be aware of how little they are and they want to be big-to have the responsibility and the choice and the ability to do things. It's tough. But it does get better! My youngest is now 3.5, and I was just thinking this morning as I was out for a walk (I get up before everyone else) how different it is now to finally be getting some "me" time (used to be I couldn't even get up before everyone else and go out-my little one would freak out), and to finally get some stuff done (a lot of stuff still only gets half done, but things are changing as they get older).

I remember so vividly being in that same place when my oldest was around 3 years old and my middle child was a baby. I had such unrealistic and unfair expectations of her. She just seemed so old. She was *so* verbal, used huge words, could do and understand so much. Especially in comparison to the baby, it was hard to remember how very little she really was. My younger two (especially my last) have really benefitted from my realization of how young 3 really is.

 

[Lohagrace]

Yes, i think having a baby compounds it because it makes the 3 y-o seem so "old" and like they "should" be able to do this or that, or they "shouldn't" do such-and-such. and our culture has a totally unrealistic set of expectations for the over-2 crowd. like, once you can string 2 or 3 words together, you are just a mini-adult or something. a 2, 3 or 4 year old should be able to sit still in a restaurant, delay their desires, not have tantrums in stores, not cry on an airplane, etc. our culture is just very intolerant of normal preschool behavior, and that totally seeps into me...and probably all of us to some extent, ykwim? i think that's why people think extended BF is weird--because 3 year olds are mini 10 year olds or something.

i'm feeling much better this morning. she came out (after sleeping in a bit) and smiled and told me "i'm going to get dressed" (normally taking off the pull up in the morning is a huge battle) and then we talked about last night. and i told her that tonight i wanted her to tell me when she is ready for bed and i don't like fighting at bedtime.

today i am just going to make my focus be on being centered and present with her. i have noticed that this really helps with her whining, getting frustrated, etc. i notice when i am busy and not focusing on her, that is when things get bad. i have a hard time slowing down, stopping the mental chatter, just being present in the moment. this is the thing i need to work on the most, and i think my children are here to help me be in the moment.

 

[psychmama]

s It sounds like you have really good insight and are taking good steps to make things better. I hope you can get some time for yourself, as well--that's not being selfish--it's taking care of your own emotional needs so you can be a calmer, less burnt out parent.

 

[mamaduck]

Wow! What great insights you have had on this thread, about expectations. I'm impressed. I can add my experience to support your theory -- my expectations of my oldest child were definately too high when our 2nd child was an infant. It was a very tough time all around.

Regarding sleep issues -- yes, get the book. I would go ahead and order it used or new -- its worth having for reference, especially since you have 2 kids. Its a very good book.

If you can focus on the sleep issue, and resolve it, everything else will fall into place. She will be so much more reasonable if she is well rested. You will be so much more reasonable if she is well rested!

There are a couple of things that severely impact my sensitive child's ability to fall asleep at night. I am very vigilant about the following things:

- Screen time. Computer, television, etc. Any screen time within 2 hours of bedtime creates a wired up, senseless frenzy that keeps him awake long into the night. Any screen time that is frightening to him affects his sleep, no matter what time of day he views it.

- Routines. He needs a calming bedtime routine. I need to allow 45 minutes for this, and accept that its just plain necessary. He needs pleasant happy things to be a part of this routine -- he needs to connect with me or his dad in a meaningful way.

- Tension. Tension around bedtime backfires. Everytime. Its better to take extra time, and breathe deep, then to try to rush or push too hard. My kid NEEDS to putter around his room for a few minutes. He NEEDS to tell me a lot of things that are on his mind, in order to get them out and clear his head. He needs to unwind slowly, to play on the floor a little, etc. Sometimes it makes me feel half-crazed. But if I allow this all to happen -- he falls asleep at the end of it. If I don't, he absorbs my pressure and tension, gets wound up, and goes a little nuts. I have had to make a concerted effort to eliminate fights, arguments, pressure, and coersion around the bedtime hour. It is counterproductive. (I have also outlawed rough-housing in the evening, for this reason. Even though he likes it -- it is not helpful for falling asleep!)

- Morning. He really does need to wake up close to the same time every morning, if he is going to have a regular bedtime. Sometimes I feel guilty for waking him, or desperate for the quiet time, but honestly -- if I let him sleep very late, then he gets all out of whack for several days.

- Sunshine. Sunshine and exersize, every day, preferably in the morning hours -- really makes a big difference.

What else? I am sure there is more. Sweets during the day keep him awake, but you know -- so long as he is getting enough rest, he doesn't really crave sweets so much.

All of this is in the book though, and some other ideas as well.

 

[famille_huggins]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lohagrace anyway, so our new plan is this: no more trying to get her to bed before 8pm. at 8, we start the bedtime routene (yes, we have a long one that involves lots of books, telling stories, back rubs, etc.) and if, after stories, she persists in the "i dont want to go to bed" thing, my husband will play memory game or hi-ho cherry-o or something with her in bed. we'll just work on keeping her calm, relaxed and in bed until she is ready to fall asleep. the fight is just so not worth it.

We had some of this experience with my dd -- with her wanting to get back up when it's bedtime. What we've done is when bedtime routine is over, it's bedtime. I lay with her, and we listen to a story on CD (available at the library, or sometimes with kids meals from Chik-fil-a). She may say a few times, "I don't want to go to sleep," and I say, "That's fine with me, no one said you had to go to sleep -- we're just listening to a story." She may say it again, and I say "Wait, what did they just say?" to get her to recount that part of the story. Then she has to sort of focus in on a story that I have playing slightly lower than I normally would have, and all that focusing and listening to the monotone story voice knocks her out.

DS was harder because he just could not sleep in a quiet room. He has ADHD and we had to get a white noise machine to help him focus to wind down to sleep. Giving him control over the machine -- letting him hold it and press the buttons -- was also key. We got ours at Academy Sports for $12 or so, and he particularly loved the crickets and the heartbeat. The rhythm helped him focus, and the focus helped him sleep.

With both kids we've used some physical tactics, as well. DS would want to get up, and I'd say, "OK, but first let me rub your back." That would only last so long, so I'd say, "OK we can get up, but first I need you to rub my back." Then arms, then face, etc. Somehow, it this physical activity was dubbed "resting his bones," and while he doesn't require it at home as part of a betime routine anymore, he enjoys it immensely, and it's helpful when we travel or when he's sleeping away from home.

The giving in verbally was usually enough to diffuse the situation and prevent a tantrum, but the delay tactics kept them in bed and helped them wind down to sleep. DS is 6 and has required no bedtime tactics at home for a couple of years -- he now just listens to his radio. DD is newly 5 and needs the story on CD and me laying with her to sleep in her own bed. She is free to cosleep if she needs or wants to, and has a sleeping bag at the foot of our bed at all times (because when she sleeps IN my bed, she sleeps sideways and literally kicks me in the face all night long. I digress...).

I'm just wondering if allowing your little one to get back up to play board games instead of figuring out a creative way to keep her down sort of "rewards" negative and unwanted behavior? Perhaps when it's not bedtime and there's not a fight to be had, you could talk to her about bedtime. Explain that it's good for her, and all the rest she gets makes her healthy and strong, and then find out what she wants or needs to be able to go to bed at bedtime.

Again, creativity has worked for us. And choices -- we say, "You have to go to bed, so would you like to go to bed with XX stuffed animal, or YY stuffed animal?" Since they have no choice in the bedtime matter, we frequently let them have a choice in something so they don't totally feel like they have no say or control.

OK, enough from me...

 

[Lohagrace]

Oh, i definitely do all of that. when she says she wants to get up, i tell her i'll tell her a story, rub her back, etc. she just fights and fights sleep so much. she knows if i let her rub her back for 2 minutes she will fall asleep, so she doesn't want me to. other times it works. i don't mean that she will be allowed to get out of bed and play a game, i just mean playing a game in bed to keep her calm and mellow. as opposed to her getting worked up, screaming and crying that she doesn't want to go to bed.