[Hannahsmummy]

Does anyone have a gifted child in a Waldorf school. Or, do you have any experience with gifted kids in Waldorf education?

 

[dharmama]

:

 

[bremen]

i was a gifted kid, and i went to waldorf school.
i was older when i went, but it was perfect for me. i am a much more well-rounded person because of waldorf

 

[Hannahsmummy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dharmama :

I hope it's not a controversial issue! I am really curious about anyones experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bremen i was a gifted kid, and i went to waldorf school. i was older when i went, but it was perfect for me. i am a much more well-rounded person because of waldorf

Thanks very much for that, it's good to know.

We have been with our school for 3 years and we have always lived a Waldorf lifestyle. I am very much pro Waldorf and have always been happy with our experience at school.
I am struggling with a couple of things right now at school with my daughter now that she is going to be starting class one.

I don't want to go to much into detail at first as I'd love just to hear some experiences that aren't slanted by our current experience. I will definitely post more about specific questions and the like later though.

 

[pixiewytch]

First of all I'm not sure exactly what you mean by gifted. I'm sure you have read about some of our accounts with DS and behavioral issues which have really smoothed out this year. I think more and more that this was/is directly related to his being very intelligent/academically more advanced than his peers. I don't really care for the word gifted myself. It sort of implies that my child is better than someone else's, but I do know for a fact that he is ahead of his classmates. His teacher even told me this during our last conference. When he had speech issues as a preschooler he tested above average on all cognitive tests.

So our experience related to that has been this. He had already been going to preK for a couple of years for speech therapy and since his birthday falls in December he was basically six already while still in kindy. I wouldn't say he hated it but he acted out a lot and was eventually kicked out if you recall. He would say a lot of the songs and activities were "stupid", that he wanted to burn the school down, and so on. Now I don't think he KNEW that he wanted something more stimulating because we have never taught or pushed academics at home. In fact he taught himself to read just this last year with no instruction whatsoever.

Fast forward to first grade which is where we are this year. The first half of the year he was in a small class with other first graders and things were dicey. It wasn't as bad as kindy but there was still some acting out and needing to come home for tantrums. There were issues about the teacher's competence and handling the class so she was dismissed and then he was switched to a mixed class with the second graders. Now he is doing beautifully. I mean, I can't even tell you how dramatic the difference is. I have various teachers coming up to me saying that he is like a completely different child. Aside from the teacher having a better firm handle on the class I believe that he is just loving the academics this year. He was thrilled to learn writing cursive, loves the math applications, and the buddy reading which sometimes takes place with even the third graders. Since he can read on almost their level he enjoys that even better.

I totally feel that everything coming to him now he is ready to learn at this time and soaking it up with a sponge...and he isn't too much in his head as I used to be told in kindy. He still loves playing in gnome woods, finding objects of nature, and making things out of beeswax. He never mentions disliking school or being bored like he did last year. I can now confidently say that he was just done with kindergarten and ready to move on to something else. Now does that mean I think he is ready to skip three grade levels or something? No. I think he is right where he needs to be now.

So I don't know what your issues are but for us things have greatly improved and I do consider him to be more advanced than many of his classmates academically speaking...oh, but you know, his teacher did point out that socially he is a tad bit behind his peers so it all kind of evens out I think.

 

[cuqui]

My 10 yr dd is in 4th grade, she is probably the most academic child in her class. We have struggled for the past 3 yrs with the lack of academic challenge for our DD, to no avail. I get the whole reasoning about the whole child and yes, she is a great 'person' thanks to her Waldorf education, but she is bored beyond words! She has to wait until the entire class has learned a lesson b4 they move on, and often help the other children. She goes to the library at least 3 times a week to get new books and books about sciences (huge interest of hers, not a strong Waldorf subject). She would spend every spare moment reading if she could... this kids is starving for academics and her needs are not being met at her school. We have decided to put her in a very academic Public school in Sept. She is also interested in track (none at the WS), she also wants to do more acting than the 1 play per year (where parts are assigned by temperment rather than talent); the PS has these programs.

So to answer your question, the gifted child will benefit from a Waldorf education in many ways but the academic hunger will not be satiated. Be prepared to do a lot of homeschooling.

I'll post an update in a year and let you know how public has worked out for her. BTW, her sister & brother will remain in Waldorf.

HTH

 

[orangewallflower]

Hannah'smummy,
I think the most important thing to understand is that there will not be a special curriculum or track for the gifted child, as I think the previous posts make clear. Age is considered to be the determinant for what a kid should be learning when, and skipping a grade is highly unusual. An extraordinary interest in math, science or reading might even be seen as a problem to remedy rather than a "gift."

 

[kghaffar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangewallflower An extraordinary interest in math, science or reading might even be seen as a problem to remedy rather than a "gift."

This is an issue for me. I don't ever want any child including my own made to feel that in an extraordinary interest in something is wrong. Does anyone else find settling one educational methodology is very difficult?

 

[pixiewytch]

I'm wondering if special interests could be adequately supplemented at home. For instance DS is really into things like astronomy and mechanics but that isn't in his curriculum anytime soon. I kind of take an "unschooling" approach at home where we cultivate what he is interested at that particular time with books, stories, projects, and whatever else supports that interest. In fact I don't see where any teacher would have much of a problem with that for a grades student. I think that even a lot of "academic" curiosities can be satiated by these little side projects. Finding a creative way to cultivate an interest like math or science without sitting a child down with pen and paper sounds like a great way to offer additional stimulation outside of the classroom.

Once again, I think unschooling ideas would offer a lot of guidance on that sort of thing.

 

[doublyblessed]

what is a 'gifted child'???

 

[Hannahsmummy]

Thank you all so much for your answers and insight!

Quote:

Originally Posted by pixiewytch First of all I'm not sure exactly what you mean by gifted. I'm sure you have read about some of our accounts with DS and behavioral issues which have really smoothed out this year. I think more and more that this was/is directly related to his being very intelligent/academically more advanced than his peers. I don't really care for the word gifted myself. It sort of implies that my child is better than someone else's

Pixie, I do recall the issues you went through with school and I appreciate hearing your experiences. I also really agree about the term gifted and do have a lot of discomfort with it. I use it here just as a simple way to express what I mean.

Quote:

He would say a lot of the songs and activities were "stupid", that he wanted to burn the school down, and so on. Now I don't think he KNEW that he wanted something more stimulating because we have never taught or pushed academics at home. In fact he taught himself to read just this last year with no instruction whatsoever.

This is similar to what we have been dealing with lately. The past year of kinde has been really difficult as intellectually my daughter is really ready to move on and has been for a year. She hasn't joined in on many of the activities in this past year as they are "rubbish", things like painting and bread making. She is really having trouble with the confines in which things are meant to be done.

Quote:

I can't even tell you how dramatic the difference is. I have various teachers coming up to me saying that he is like a completely different child. Aside from the teacher having a better firm handle on the class I believe that he is just loving the academics this year. He was thrilled to learn writing cursive, loves the math applications, and the buddy reading which sometimes takes place with even the third graders. Since he can read on almost their level he enjoys that even better. I totally feel that everything coming to him now he is ready to learn at this time and soaking it up with a sponge...and he isn't too much in his head as I used to be told in kindy. He still loves playing in gnome woods, finding objects of nature, and making things out of beeswax. He never mentions disliking school or being bored like he did last year. I can now confidently say that he was just done with kindergarten and ready to move on to something else. Now does that mean I think he is ready to skip three grade levels or something? No. I think he is right where he needs to be now. So I don't know what your issues are but for us things have greatly improved and I do consider him to be more advanced than many of his classmates academically speaking...oh, but you know, his teacher did point out that socially he is a tad bit behind his peers so it all kind of evens out I think.

Brilliant! I am so glad to hear this as I know how difficult it has been.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuqui My 10 yr dd is in 4th grade, she is probably the most academic child in her class. We have struggled for the past 3 yrs with the lack of academic challenge for our DD, to no avail. I get the whole reasoning about the whole child and yes, she is a great 'person' thanks to her Waldorf education, but she is bored beyond words! She has to wait until the entire class has learned a lesson b4 they move on, and often help the other children. She goes to the library at least 3 times a week to get new books and books about sciences (huge interest of hers, not a strong Waldorf subject). She would spend every spare moment reading if she could... this kids is starving for academics and her needs are not being met at her school. We have decided to put her in a very academic Public school in Sept. She is also interested in track (none at the WS), she also wants to do more acting than the 1 play per year (where parts are assigned by temperment rather than talent); the PS has these programs. So to answer your question, the gifted child will benefit from a Waldorf education in many ways but the academic hunger will not be satiated. Be prepared to do a lot of homeschooling. I'll post an update in a year and let you know how public has worked out for her. BTW, her sister & brother will remain in Waldorf. HTH

This is very much like how we are feeling. The holding back has resulted in a lot of conflict between my daughter and her teachers. This is a child who normally is very very easy going. We do allow as much academic exploration at home as she likes and so far that has been our saving grace. I really can't see her in a mainstream school so I am really hoping to get this all sorted out.
I'd really be interested in hearing your update.

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangewallflower Hannah'smummy, I think the most important thing to understand is that there will not be a special curriculum or track for the gifted child, as I think the previous posts make clear. Age is considered to be the determinant for what a kid should be learning when, and skipping a grade is highly unusual. An extraordinary interest in math, science or reading might even be seen as a problem to remedy rather than a "gift."

I am really aware of this and it has been discussed at school lately in fact. I have been made to feel lately that she has a problem.

What's been happening is that in the past year my daughter has been unhappy at school, disconnected with her teachers, unsatisfied with what she's doing at school and feeling very angry,

It's come to a head in the last month with class one readiness preparations. Partially through a meeting with our teacher (whom we adore) and also during the interview for class one. It's just become really clear to me that she is seen as having a problem that needs fixing to be more like the other kids. I have been told repeatedly that she's too grounded and not free enough. That she needs to focus on being less rigid, worry less about the rules and be more social. All things which she is perfectly capable of when in a situation where she feels that she is free to be herself.

She has been butting heads a lot lately and feels like she's been "treated like a baby" because there is no explanation for why things happen. She has a tendency to rebel against anything that doesn't have a logical reason behind it and she isn't given reasons for things.

She reads a little and writes well and has done for the past year, something she hasn't been taught. She is artistically gifted and this is something that has been seen as a negative. She is also very different from her pears so she doesn't relate to the other kids in her class, hence the reason that we've been told that she needs to socialize more.

Anyway, I am not giving up on Waldorf as it has been so good for us and it is who we are. I just need to get to a place where she can settle at school even if it means doing extra at home. I don't have a problem with things not being taught as long as it's not discouraged.

I think part of this is just needing a place to vent. I am hopeful that class one will bring about a big change though I know that my girl has big expectations about what's going to happen.

 

[pixiewytch]

Okay, so she is still in kindy. I wasn't sure. What you are being told by the teachers sounds like a lot of what we went through as well. We went on a wild goose chase from traveling to see an anthro doctor who ended up being useless to getting chiro treatments to help his vestibular which probably helped more than the anthro doctor. And honestly, I didn't blindly follow their advice because I too had no idea what was going on with him and for a long time thought he did have some major problems...especially with his history of delayed speech and sensory issues.

At the end of the school year when he was "dismissed" for the remainder of the year I was feeling fairly resentful about his teacher not accepting that he didn't fit inside that mold. When I explained that maybe he was bored and ready to move on his teacher disagreed with me saying that since he couldn't tie his shoes or set the table before snack time that he was clearly not ready or something to that effect. I thought that was a bunch of bull and this year has clearly proved her theory wrong.

I say hang in there and hope for the best next year. As I'm sure you realize it will really depend on the teacher too. Don't be surprised though if you deal with some roadblocks to get there. We were told that he would only be admitted after the first grade teacher heard of his situation and okayed it and then it would be on a probationary basis only. Thank goodness it has all worked out so far.

 

[mistymama]

I don't consider my son "gifted" (don't really like that term/label) but we did Waldorf nursery and that was it. My son is a very early reader, he began reading at age 3. While in Waldorf nursery they would tell a story with movements that go along with it before lunch for an entire month .. the teachers were amazed that he would know the entire story and all hand motions during the first week .. and then the rest of the month he was bored stiff by it. I also visited the first grade classroom where they were learning the letter A and just knew this would not be right for ds. He was reading at that time - I can't imagine TWO YEARS later just learning the letters and sounds.

We put him in a more traditional, academic program and he thrived. I still

the concept of Waldorf, but had to admit it wasn't right for my child.

 

[pixiewytch]

I too thought that learning the "letters" in first grade sounded really odd for 7 year olds but didn't realize that this includes learning to write the letters properly and in cursive as well. In DS's class this year he was thrilled to tell me that the whole class learned to write his name and all the classmates got a turn writing different names in the class. So usually doing letters is lot more involved than just learning the sound or what it looks like. I don't think I learned how to write cursive letters until second grade so that doesn't seem too backwards to me.

 

[DimitraDaisy]

I don't think all schools do cursive that early -- I certainly will not to do until Class 2 or even 3. I am with Enki on this, cursive involves crossing the midlines (going back and forth and changing directions) a lot and it is difficult. I don't want to do it until I know that it can be done well by the majority of the children, and that won't be for a while yet. They're finding running forms in Form Drawing difficult enough as it is.

More to the point, there is a child in my class that you can call gifted, I suppose. She didn't learn to read before she came to Class 1 I don't think, but she's scarily smart. She gets everything the first time she hears it and sees the connection between things without the need for anyone to point them out to her. She often sees connections that I wasn't even going to point out. She learns any poem or verse on day 2, and proceeds to prompt me if I forget thereafter. Just to give you an example, I introduced an alphabet poem after Christmas, but I didn't know it perfectly and I paused for a moment after "T is for treasure, for everyone". Well, what do you know, she looked at me and said "U". I don't think I would have been able to do that... She's also very good at handwork and her drawings are better than mine, too

She even has some kind of perspective (she will draw rolling hills all over her page, and scatter sheep and poppies all over them), and will sometimes draw just a part of something (i.e. a tree branch coming out of the side of the page, implying that the rest of the tree is out of the frame), which is pretty advanced for a seven-year-old I think!

She's not bored at all in class. In fact she regularly informs me that she loves school because she loves learning

Of course, I am not your typical Waldorf teacher, and the class is very small, and pretty clever overall, and these things play a role. But, in her case, she is definitely 'filled up' by all the non-academic stuff as well as by the academic stuff, and doesn't seem to be needing more. I really do think that in a lot of Waldorf classrooms things are, too, er, "fluffy", for lack of a better word, and they don't really satisfy the children's needs as much as the teacher's ideas of what Waldorf is

: But you can do these very same things (circle time, fairy tales, even copying off the board) in a meaningful way that provides challenges for the children. It's not too hard. You just have to understand what you are doing rather than do what you are told...

I'm grumpy today it seems

Six- and almost-six-year-olds in Kindergarten seem to be a challenge that not all teachers respond to adequately. I can't really comment on it much since I am not a Kindergarten teacher, but I do believe that it can be done.

 

[pixiewytch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DimitraDaisy I don't think all schools do cursive that early -- I certainly will not to do until Class 2 or even 3. I am with Enki on this, cursive involves crossing the midlines (going back and forth and changing directions) a lot and it is difficult. I don't want to do it until I know that it can be done well by the majority of the children, and that won't be for a while yet. They're finding running forms in Form Drawing difficult enough as it is. .

Okay, well then it sounds like DS was learning it because he is in a combined class with the second graders. I just assumed that was included in the first grade curriculum.

 

[Hannahsmummy]

Thanks so much for the further insight everyone.

As for cursive, our school starts that in class two as well. Though I do feel that there are some things that will challenge my daughter is class one like languages (french and german), which she adores. At this point I think I am just going to need reassurance that my daughter's differences will be seen as real and accepted vs seeing it as a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DimitraDaisy More to the point, there is a child in my class that you can call gifted, I suppose. She didn't learn to read before she came to Class 1 I don't think, but she's scarily smart. She gets everything the first time she hears it and sees the connection between things without the need for anyone to point them out to her. She often sees connections that I wasn't even going to point out. She learns any poem or verse on day 2, and proceeds to prompt me if I forget thereafter. Just to give you an example, I introduced an alphabet poem after Christmas, but I didn't know it perfectly and I paused for a moment after "T is for treasure, for everyone". Well, what do you know, she looked at me and said "U". I don't think I would have been able to do that... She's also very good at handwork and her drawings are better than mine, too She even has some kind of perspective (she will draw rolling hills all over her page, and scatter sheep and poppies all over them), and will sometimes draw just a part of something (i.e. a tree branch coming out of the side of the page, implying that the rest of the tree is out of the frame), which is pretty advanced for a seven-year-old I think!

Wow, You have just described my daughter almost exactly, especially with the drawing. Though my daughter is only 5. Add to that an extremely empathetic child who is sensitive and a perfectionist who does everything perfectly. Now what I mean by that is not that she's perfect at everything but that she is unwilling to let anyone see her in the learning process and will mentally practice a thing until it is just right (to her) and then present it. I think this will be a challenge for her as well.

I do realize that so much of our success at school is going to depend on the kind of teacher we get. Unfortunately we probably won't know who that is until school is about to start in August.

 

[DimitraDaisy]

I didn't mean to imply that anyone was wrong about when cursive is done! For all I know there's a lot of teachers who do it in Class 1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hannahsmummy Wow, You have just described my daughter almost exactly, especially with the drawing. Though my daughter is only 5. Add to that an extremely empathetic child who is sensitive and a perfectionist who does everything perfectly. Now what I mean by that is not that she's perfect at everything but that she is unwilling to let anyone see her in the learning process and will mentally practice a thing until it is just right (to her) and then present it. I think this will be a challenge for her as well.

I was actually going to mention this -- this little girl finds it quite hard not to be able to do things. I think it is partly who she is, partly the fact that she's been more or less an only child for most of her life, and partly the fact that she's so used to being so very good -- things come easily to her! But she finds it very hard when they don't. For a while she would just shut down and refuse to do things... I am glad (very, very glad) to say she has moved on significantly, and she's more comfortable with making mistakes now. And that was probably the most important thing she'll learn all year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hannahsmummy I do realize that so much of our success at school is going to depend on the kind of teacher we get. Unfortunately we probably won't know who that is until school is about to start in August.

Think positively... or pray: that whoever it is will understand your daughter and give her what she needs. Okay, that might look silly in a way, but it totally is what I would do. I don't mean to sound condescending, but it is normal for parents to worry when their children transition from Kindergarten to the Classes. It is normal for everyone to worry, I wouldn't be surprised if the Kindergarten teachers worry too. But do have faith in the fact that the class has a way of training the teacher, and getting what they need out of them. As long as the teacher is reasonably open-minded and aware, it should work out

 

[pixiewytch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hannahsmummy I do realize that so much of our success at school is going to depend on the kind of teacher we get. Unfortunately we probably won't know who that is until school is about to start in August.

I can empathize with you there. I remember how hard it was for me to have to wait until they found a teacher for first grade and like you said it does always seem to be a last minute thing.

 

[DimitraDaisy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pixiewytch I can empathize with you there. I remember how hard it was for me to have to wait until they found a teacher for first grade and like you said it does always seem to be a last minute thing.

Tell me about it!! I was on the other side of this and it drove me absolutely insane. Imagine waiting all throughout June and part of July to find out if you have to start teaching in September. Things would be so much better if these decisions were made by Easter time. Things would be so much better if schools had it together enough to make these decisions in a timely manner!