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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I started researching around August, and I still haven't come to a concrete decision. I bought and read Stephanie Cave's book, I've read some links on the net, I've talked to other mothers who do not vax and I'm still having trouble deciding. Then, to make matters worse, I'm sitting here watching an old episode of ER and it's about a little boy who caught measles because his mother chose not to vax, and they're basically ridiculing her decision (yes, I know its TV and is all drama, but still). They're saying that because of parents like her the diseases will come back full force and that vaccines actually strenghten the immune system rather than weaken it.

I'm scared to vax, I'm scared not to vax. I don't know what to do, both kids are already behind on vaccines because I'm having trouble making a decision, DD was due in September, DS due last month. Does anyone have anything that states complications of vaccines vs. deaths and complications of the actual diseases vs. deaths? I seem to be having trouble finding comprehensive information on this topic.

I would appreciate any help, I'm just so lost and confused and I'm afraid people will make me out to be a bad mother for not vaccinating.

5,270 Posts

I can relate. My dd is 6 mo and has not had any vaxes. We have basically decided to delay until we feel comfortable making a decision. Some days I am POSITIVE we will not vaccinate...other days I worry that we are making a mistake.

We all want to make the best possible decision for our sweet babies and it can be tough with all the contridicting information out there.

I have a good relationship with our family doctor. I have been honest with him and he has been honest with me. He would like to see me vax for some things but will work with us no matter what we decide.

I've read several books...right now I'm re-reading Aviva Jill Romm's book and I'm finding it very helpful. I particularly like the part in the back about herbal/nutritional/homeopathic healing of childhood illnesses.

Good luck mama!


1,051 Posts
Oh mamma
I can too relate!!
I remember the feelings of scared to vax and scared not to, there just didn't seem like an answer.
So... I decided to wait untill I knew what to do, as I waited and researched more and I became much more comfortable with a decision not to vax.
I figured I could ALWAYS vax but I could never undo something I was unsure of.
So my advice, don't do anything untill you are positive. Also it might help to have a game plan, say your child got the measles, what would you do? Think about nutritional/homeopathic healing etc...
Good luck!

326 Posts
I understand and feel much like you do! I agree with everyone else that it's good to wait until you feel sure of your choice. It also bugs me when someone (even if it is just tv) makes nonvaxers out to be horrible people. The only thing I can say about this is that if anyone has truly done the research and read with an open mind, they would never think the issue was that cut and dry. I could never criticize anyone for vaxing or not assuming they have done research fully. So, I would expect that anyone who would critize me for delaying (at this point at least, I consider myself delay/selective) has really not done the research.

1,074 Posts
Keep reading. Net info, IMO, can very quickly become overwhelming as there is so much of it and it's harder to weed through your sources sometimes. Cave's book is pretty pro-vax, IMO, though I do think it is a great one to begin with. I recommend Neil Z ******'s and Aviva Jill Romm's and Randall Neustadter's books. Get them from your library (mine only had one of these, but you can usually get them through interlibrary loan) if you don't want to buy them.
Also, you know that ER episode was bull$h*t propaganda. But here's some letters to NBC from parents who were able to say so more eloquently than that:
Read some, that will help erase the icky feeling watching that episode gave you.

Oh, and don't vaccinate until you are ready!

2,203 Posts
My intro into the vax issues was hearing about a rotavirus vaccine that was released then recalled within a year. Some babies had died after the vaccine and several had their bowels fold, needing surgery to correct. Wow, how could a vaccine that did that ever get released to begin with? In my search for that information, (my first stop was the CDC site) I found a link to more information about that vaccine, and right under it, a link to the mercury issues. WHAT?!!! I had NO IDEA MERCURY was in vaccines! I realized then I had no clue about these vaccines I had allowed my children to get the past 15 years.

At the same time, my 4th child born 2/11/99 was getting his routine shots, and I became very wary, but hadn't read enough info to convince me one way or the other. Well, my decision was cemented when I watched my fat happy baby deteriorate after his 3rd round of vaccines. That was the last round he got (he's 5 now) and his younger brother born 9/3/02 is unvaccinated. While I am furious that I didn't follow my gut instincts, I am thankful that a stronger sign was given, or my child may have died with the next round.

1,914 Posts
Suschi reminds me of how unscientific vaccine testing is.

When drug companies test out a new drug for safety, they take a group of people with similar attributes... age, certain conditions, environment, etc... and they give half the people the drug, and the other half a placebo, or sugar pill.

But when vaccines are tested, they don't test half the group with the new vaccine and half with a fake shot. Instead, their "control group" gets another previously tested vaccine.

Also, there is no long-term testing with vaccines. Testers literally watch the test subjects for hours after the injection, not days, months, or years.

Vaccines are not tested for their ability to cause cancer, mutations, developmental malformations, or their effects on the child's reproductive system. Shampos and cosmetics are tested for their ability to cause cancer; vaccines are not!

Vaccine testing is junk science.

Even Hippocrates said, "Diseases are crises of purification, of toxic elimination. Symptoms are the natural defenses of the body. We call them diseases, but in fact they are the cure of diseases."

OP, I sympathize with your quandry. Even though I have made my own educated decision, it is still hard to deal with the uneducated public, the media, my own brainwashing while growing up, and my MIL.

Hang in there!

1,585 Posts
Dh and I are at the end of the vax decision. Honestly, we haven't gone back a forth on the topic since we decided to start educating ourselves. Remember that knowledge is power. Two books I would rec are "What your doctor may not tell you about children's vaccinations" by Stepanie Cave and "What about Immunizations" by Cynthia Cournoyer. We got both of these from the library. There are also several websites that are helpful : Holistic kids site and the president is here in NYC and an pediatrician.
Click or the articles section.
You could google that national vaccine center. I think it's or .org
I had to do a lot of educating since I'm a nurse and have been trained in allopathic medicine. Don't ignore your mother's intuition.

Good luck!

92 Posts
Even though we are not vaxing our children, DH and I still like to read info. It reinforces our decision. Here is another book to add to your list - The Sancity of Human Blood: Vaccination is Not Immuni$ation. You can order it at

As the others have said, take time to make your decision and take time choosing an excellent ped.

Best of luck!

14,488 Posts

Originally Posted by ClothDiaperMomma
... Then, to make matters worse, I'm sitting here watching an old episode of ER and it's about a little boy ...
That should be a warning to you, they are trying to brainwash you into vaccinating. They know that it goes against all instincts and so they need to use fear to make you do something you probably would choose not to.

Here is a link to the CDC. Click on any disease and at the bottom of the page it shows scripts for TV plots. That serves only one purpose - to create apprehension and to persuade you to vaccinate. It is criminal what they do to us.

You should be scared to vaccinate. You know what's in the vaccines, don't you? Formaldehyde, antibiotics, antifreeze, residue mercury, aluminum, foreign proteins...

But you don't have to be scared not to vaccinate. No harm is done by leaving the child the way Mother Nature had create him. He was born with an immune system and he will use it. With the contact of every germ his immune system gets programmed and ultimately strengthened.

We have lived for millions of years and survived. Suddenly the pharma developed vaccines and now they make us think without their ware we can't survive. But that is a lie. As a matter of fact children who are not vaccinated are much healthier and stronger. They don't have nearly as much cancer and Autism, diabetes, MS, ADD, allergies, asthma.... on and on.

Many scientist say children who are not vaccinated do not have cancers at all. Vaccines cause much more than just vaccine reactions, they are the cause of most childhood autoimmune disorders which includes cancer.

I would appreciate any help, I'm just so lost and confused and I'm afraid people will make me out to be a bad mother for not vaccinating.
That is another thing that is so baffling to me. If we refuse to inject our children with those poisons that are in vaccines people try to think of it negative. Why? Because of all the millions of dollars being spent to brainwash everyone. And what is the reason for that. because the vaccine manufacturers stand to lose a lot of money if everyone thinks for themselves.

Please put it off until you have research this thoroughly.

You have nothing to lose by not vaccinating on someone's schedule. Think of your child not of your reputation.

Premium Member
4,834 Posts
I so feel your pain. I had my son 5 weeks early and was hospitalized for the 5 weeks before that--so finding a good ped and getting my vax research done was down the tubes. I only realized late in my pg that not vaxing was even something people did...! (I live among the blissfully ignorant--and trying to rise above!

I was strong about his after-birth no vaxing and wasn't shocked about the hospital's lack of pushing it: my son was in the NICU and I think they felt it might tax his system too much anyway.

But I DID get bullied into his vaxs thereafter... and I suffered for that. Not only did he have HORRIFIC reactions (including a drop in body temp to 95.9 after the 2 month shots and a month long BAD flu-like problem after another split-up set of 4 month shots)... but he was just dx'd with risk signs for autism spectrum disorder (he is almost 1yo--and yeah, they can dx this young). Needless to say that although we have no clue what causes ASDs, I seriously regret not looking into the vaxs better.

The link that annalily posted is to the only article I have read so far that provides a reasonable alternative for people on the fence. From all of my reading about my son's condition (and about cerebral palsy--which is what they initially thought he had) I know that the first 2 years of life are crucial for brain development. In fact, it is by the grace of God that we have a dx for him early enough to take advantage of getting therapy while his brain is still not finished with this growth period so that we can hopefully retrain some of his brain before that growing ends.

One thing I had been doing was trying to find out from DH's relatives in Italy what vax's they do/don't do just to compare, but it's been hard getting information from them.

I can say for certain that my son will absolutely not get any more vax's until after he is 2yo... if ever. He will never get a flu shot ever. That decision was made long before I understood the whole vax "issue"--I have 3 doctors that have told me that it is less than 50% effective because new strains are always coming out and the vax just can't keep up. Last year I was a high risk pg and qualified for the vax (there was a shortage) and my perinatologist (a high risk pg Dr.) told me not to get it--it could do more harm than good. He didn't believe in toying with nature where it wasn't a matter of life or death (except for the u/s's I got every other week!).

I don't know what caused my son's condition; but I can't help but wonder about the vax's given his reactions to them. I really wish I had read that article a year ago--and wonder if I'd have a son that could point to something he liked/wanted or show me any affection right now if I had.

4,867 Posts
I could not decide either back when I had my dd in 99'. First it was just no HepB vaccine because of my injury.Then no MMR or tetanus due to my dh's problems after his immigration shots. Then I read the vaccine inserts which led me to VAERS reports and the National Vaccine Injury Compensation program, which led me to reading actual vaccine injury court cases.Wow,parents get screwed when their kids get injured.

Oh, and also there was the congressional hearings going on during these few years on HepB and thimerosal,and the withdrawl of rotashield. DD is now 5 and my son almost 3 and I am soooo glad I decided not to vaccinate.They have been healthy(not without some illness ofcourse).And to be honest I am glad I don't have to sit and wonder if x or y vaccine caused physical or developmental problems in my kids.They are the way they are meant to be

There is just soooo much denial when it comes to vaccines causing problems.That angers me. I mean right away parents always hear," It couldn't have been the vaccine."
Yet the vaccine inserts give a nice long list of problems after vaccinations,and these are just the acknowledged reactions/complications/injuries.

All I can say to you if after having researched each vaccine and each disease in detail to be prepared for complications from either.We all know vaccines are not 100% effective,so even if you do vaccinate you need to know about the diseases.And if you vaccinate you need to keep good records so you can kick some butt in compensation court,because believe me they will definately try to kick yours to the curb asap and hold on to that money they collected(from us) to pay out for injuries!

ps.The ER episode along with the pertussis one is such crap. LOL. It is just a way to shame parents into vaccinating.Doctors miss the days when patients did what they were told,and the majority of medical information out there was for their eyes only.

Premium Member
660 Posts
I haven't read all of the replies, but I wanted to make a few comments. First off, I don't think vaccinations make stronger immune systems- they make freaked out immune system- allergies. I'm not talking about getting the sniffles every spring- I'm talking about severe life altering sometimes life threatening allergies that are an epidemic right now.

Second, as a mother, you shouldn't have to sacrifice your child so that the rest of the population doesn't have to deal with self-limiting usually mild illnesses. There are a number of things a parent can to do boost the immune system and help their child fight or avoid these illnesses- we often know which kids will get sicker- but you have no way ever of predicting if your child will have a reaction to a vaccine. You have no way of protecting your child from an adverse reaction.

11,848 Posts
normally I just post the link. but I felt I would go ahead and post the whole thing here because it seems there are newbies here lately who may not have been in archives. hth --tracy

The "other" vax information


Updated: 10-10 2004

Please note that as of now, Fall 2004, I have once again updated this cheat sheet. There were some broken links to threads in MDC that I needed to either resurrect or replace. I believe most of the links to outside of MDC are still good. -Tracy

The other vax list:


If you are reading this list for the first time you may feel a bit overwhelmed. Take a deep breath and know this: You do not have to follow the doctor's schedule for vaccinating your baby. You are well within your rights to delay until you make whatever decision makes you comfortable. This is your child, and your child deserves a well-educated decision, which can only be achieved by viewing all sides of an issue then choosing the path that is best for your child.


I decided to put together a list of links and books for those people who periodically ask me for vax information. When I say vax information I mean the "other" vax information.

There is one general vax assumption out there which pulsates like a drum beat….it says, "JUST DO IT." I don't need to support that message, there are plenty of ways one can get that information it's just about anywhere....

I've compiles this list for those people who are questioning vaxing and the possible long term effects of it….. (we are a growing lot, by the way). Anyway, here are the links I learned about from friends, from my own researching, and from the community of likeminded moms.


For me, I think the first place to begin is with hard numbersJust how many cases of all these vax-diseases do we get here in the united states? (by the way, if you are out of the us I recommend you search your country's online stats)

This is one of the hardest to find pages at the cdc… the way that I actually found this page was by accident. I had called the CDC to find out about hib cases and I got a doctor and he sent me to this page…

if you download the current issue it gives you the most uptodate stat that the cdc has on the reportable diseases by the way, the stats are at the end of the document. Anyway, I would start there first.

But just to give you an idea:
Here are the hard numbers for 2003. This is what I found for the last week of the year..... this is the total amount of cases reported to the CDC for 2003.....

Total reported cases to the cdc:

Disease Cases

Diptheria 1
Measles 41
Mumps 186
Rubella 7
Congenital rubella 0
Tetanus 14
Hib (under 5)
Sero b-20
Non sero b-80
Unknown b-178

Out of a population of 280 million people in the united states!!

If you check it now, you will see the number of cases for the year as of now (well to be specific as of last Friday..they update the list on Fridays or weekends-from what I can tell).

Remember it is a cumulative list... it is not that many cases per week. It's the year to date.

I will say that critics of the CDC will say that the numbers don't reflect all the cases since sometimes the cases are so mild they don't even get reported or people don't even go to the doctors because the symptoms are so manageable.


Can we just go back to the topic of "hard numbers" …one more time.....

One of the smartest things a friend of mine who doesn't vax said over and over again when I started to question vaxing (before my son was born) "start to figure out what your child is really at risk of getting." And then weigh the risks of the vax to the real risks of getting the disease.

For example:
I live in a county with ten million people. Ten million people, that's a lot. The last figures available online from the county health department were for 1999. That year there was one (1) case of measles reported. It was in a 44 year old woman.

There were also 250 cases of pertussis, (whooping cough) 250 out of 10 million is not much of a stat and then when I looked closer at the records I saw that of the 250 people, a certain percentage were children and of those children most had been vaxed for the disease. Only two children of the 250 were not vaxed and they were in a poor neighborhood with poor nutrition and possibly weakened immunity…Again in a county of ten million.

Also, periodically there are reports that come out stating that a city is experiencing an "epidemic" of pertussis. But what the article doesn't always say is the number of pertussis cases that make an epidemic and of those cases many are in vaxed or partially vaxed children. There is an assumption made that it is always non vaxed children who get pertussis or are responsible for the rise of the disease. I hate that assumption and I really hate reporters who don't do their homework.

I actually wonder if my own pediatrician knows those numbers… he probably does not…because that is the kind of research only parents who question have the dedication to find out….

More stats to consider

so as we have already noted.... and you can double check this with almost any of the books listed below....

roughly the cases per year in the US of the following
measles 40
mumps 600
rubella 300 of those
moms who caught it and gave CRS to their children is 25
5 cases of diptheria per year

and Polio has been eradicated in the western hemisphere and western Europe. As of 2003 there were around 700 cases of polio world wide and they were primarily in hot spots in india, pakistand and subsahara africa.

And then there is the data on vaccine injuries...kept by US dept of health..basically a summery of the most dangerous is a link that contains that link plus more:


Then these links are valuable for information about vaxes and vax damages and other associations with vaccines.



more on vax ingredients

Here is Sheri Nakken's site...her site is loaded with info.

This organization is not necessarily where you go for vax information, but this is an institute that is passionately working on autism and helping parents and released the report last year about the epidemic proportion of autism in California. Caveat: the man who started this organization, his son developed autism after the MMR and he has been very vocal about such.


A doctor is suppose to give you the inserts whenever they give your child a shot….I must say, from what I understand (since I passed on shots) that usually for some reason doesn't happen….
Anyway, here is a link to those inserts


There was a pretty thorough state by state thread on MDC but it is gone now, so I have resurrected this state thread. Basically the purpose of this thread was to help people go to their State Government websites and find out how many reported diseases there were in their area. Unfortunately, the nature of state governments is to change their websites a lot so some of the links within this thread may be broken. But I will try to clean up this thread with updated links. But you might want to check and see if your state is there and if the link is still good.


and here is an example of exemption document you can offer your doctor if they want you to sign something.

any legal concerns?


Mothers on mdc have many hours of research in each of them… here are some informative links to those discussions..

And for goodness sake, take your time.. you don't have to read all these threads at once. Just tackle it bit by bit.

topic: Reasons why some people don't vax

topic: Everyday life with my unvaxed child

topic: Really Confused about Vax

topic: Is there a correlation btw eczema and certain vaccines

topic: convince me to skip the MMR

topic: ingrediants

more on ingrediants

topic: tetanus

(thread to come)

topic: my kid isn't vaxed but yours is..

topic: flu 2003 the fat thread

topic: scared to vax and scared to not vax

topic: chicken pox

topic: does stopping vaxes midstream negate earlier vaxs


Here is a canada link that might be helpful for those in canada


and for those who receive assistance and are afraid that you HAVE to vax or might lose wic .... please check this out:


And this thread is very important in my opinion…even if you decide to vax…please, please, please..don't ever do it after antibiotics…delay way, way, way after..

edit to add:
I should say that some of the postings got edited out for various reasons..primarily to protect the poster. But basically, the patterns that have popped up... baby gets ear infections,.. gets antibiiotics, the antibiotics wipe out the good stuff in the intestines. then the baby gets something like MMR and the measles run amock in the intestines because there is no good flora to fight them... anyway at a conference in chicago in late spring 2003, this was brought up as part of the link in why autistic children have more measles in their systems than other children... (do a google search on Dr. Geier you should find them)
but here is this abbreviated thread from health and healing

But if you want more info… please put the word "antibiotics" in the search engine on Vax and you'll get more discussion.

Roll call: Autism/Vax damage


And speaking of Mothering… some back issues of the magazine have been completely dedicated to this issue and I recommend you poke around at this site and see if you might want to pick up some.

look here:

and here:


Get thy butt to Amazon

And finally here are books with the links, which are very, very and very important to know about…read, study etc…. I started with Nuestadder's book but I encourage you to check out the amazon links and see where you want to start.. (note: I provided the links to amazon..but if you want to help, please consider purchasing the books via Powell's books which you will find the link here on…a portion of the purchase will come back to mothering)

· The Vaccine Guide: Making an Informed Choice by Randall Neustaedter, Randall the Immunization Decision Neusdaedter (Paperback)

· How to Raise a Healthy Child in Spite of Your Doctor by Robert S. Mendelsohn (Paperback)
· Confessions of a Medical Heretic by Robert S. Mendelsohn (Paperback)

· A Shot in the Dark: Why the P in the Dpt Vaccination May Be Hazardous to Your Child's Health by Harris L. Coulter, Barbara Loe Fisher (Paperback)

· Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective by Neil Z. ******, et al (Paperback)

Jamie Murphy. What Every Parent Should know about Childhood Immunization

· The Immunization Resource Guide : Where to Find Answers to All Your Questions about Childhood Vaccinations by Diane Rozario (Paperback)

· What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children's Vaccinations by Stephanie Cave, Deborah Mitchell (Contributor) (Paperback)

· Smart Medicine for a Healthier Child: A Practical A-To-Z Reference to Natural and Conventional Treatments for Infants and Children by Janet Zand, et al (Paperback)
· I should say, this book is pro-vax..which I am not thrilled about…but the other stuff is very, very helpful)

· Vaccinations: A Thoughtful Parent's Guide: How to Make Safe, Sensible Decisions about the Risks, Benefits, and Alternatives by Aviva Jill Romm (Paperback)

· The Sanctity of Human Blood: Vaccination Is Not Immunization - Sixth Edition - 2003 -- Tim O'Shea; Paperback

· Naturally Healthy Babies & Children: A Commonsense Guide to Herbal Remedies by Aviva Jill Romm, William Sears (Paperback)


And finally, this really should be stated over and over again….


good luck and happy researching!

10,795 Posts
great info Tracy

clothdiapermomma- i know what a hard decision it is to make. just keep reading and researching until you are comfortable either way. you can take your time on this!
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