HELP! How to GD with preverbal kids

Hi there! Here are my 4 cents, take 'em or leave 'em....

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Honestly, I think it's unfair to leave your dog around a child that is hitting and pulling its fur, and it would be more fair to the dog to separate it and keep it safe...until your kiddo can really understand what being gentle to the dog is. Maybe get him a stuffed dog that he can be a little rougher experimenting with, and if/when he goes to your dog, redirect him to the stuffed one?

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Again, I would try to honor the impulse (thanks Deva33Mommy for giving me that phrase, I love it) and find similar things or provide something in that room that he CAN climb, and bring him over there if he tries to get up towards the stove. I've found that most of the time when I offer DS (26 mos) an alternative that will cure his need, he's fine with it. And I give a brief explanation, like "This is too dangerous to climb...you can climb on this, it's safe." or soemthing like that. It may take a little while of redirection before he gets it, but it will come if you do it consistently, every time (yes, exhausting, but it works).

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Honestly? We didn't give him the opportunity. In addition to having no concept of how much could fit in his mouth until he was about 18 months old (we would try periodically, and he would literally nearly choke every time until that one magical day when it just clicked for him, now he gets full meals on his plate), I didn't want to get into a power struggle like that with him, and didn't want to be cleaning up huge messes at every meal. SO, until he showed that he was over his flinging phase (and mouth cramming phase - we'd test the flinging every few weeks, too), I would only give him a couple bites at a time on his tray off of a plate from the table. Right now he's getting into open cups (as opposed to the straw cups he's been using), and I only give him a couple sips in the cup at a time, poured from a bigger cup - he's doing great, and I figure in the next month or two will be able to handle a full cup. I do agree with you about the "less is more" reaction, as you said, something like "Plates should stay on the table" and leave it at that. It's always best to phrase what you want them to do as opposed to what you want them not to do, cause the "Charlie Brown" "mwah mwah mwah" hearing tends to kick in and make them hear 'drop your fork', if you say 'don't drop your fork'; but if you say 'please keep your fork on the table', good 'ole Charlie Brown will hear 'fork on table'....

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Yes, but sister, it ain't easy. I think if you have alternatives set up, it's a lot easier - because instead of just telling them that X isn't OK, you can tell them that they can do Y instead. If you have a particularly persistant child, like mine, it might take a lot of effort on your part to begin with, getting up off your butt every time, the first time, and redirecting to the alternative...but you will see it pay off in time, I promise. It did for me - not for everything, but for enough that it showed me it does work.

Oh, I will be watching this thread! My son is nearly 18 months old and OH. MY. WORD!!!

He understands a great deal (and chooses to ignore me anyhow, lol), but does not speak yet.

We don't have a dog right now (I'm sure all the dogs out there are thanking us), but I completely hear you on meal time. It seems I spend most of dinner crawling around on the floor picking things up.

Does your DS also respond to every frustration by finding something to chuck? Dom and I can dodge his missiles pretty easily, but his poor baby sister has gotten bonked a few times. :

It seems the only thing that works for us is IMMEDIATE and ENTHUSIASTIC distraction Which is fine when Dominic is home...but not so easy when I am nursing little sister, kwim?

donos: Woohoo! I got 4 cents, most folks only give you 2 haha. Wow, and you are a WAHM, so you had to make it work. I tried that and couldn't do it because he seemed to need too much attention from me. Yeah, I know it is all about redirection at this age, and I am also a big believer in whatever they are doing is related to what they are trying to practice or learn at that moment. Having said that... I guess I feel like he is getting to the point where I shouldn't have to direct his EVERY move. OK, it is not really that bad, but some days it feels like that.

I agree with you about the dog, but here is the problem. If I put her on the other side of the baby gate, she just cries and whines and scratches to get back in. So she obviously doesn't want to be away from us. Absolutely if I noticed her wanting to get away I would let her, but it feels like I am punishing her because she is miserable when I separate her. I think this is one of the toughest parts of my situation because it feels like it needs constant monitoring.

There is plenty he can climb on nearby the kitchen. Which brings up another issue. Not like we have a gym or anything in the family room. By other things I mean the couch, end tables, coffee table.... I decided to give up on keeping him off those things, but sometimes I worry I am teaching him the wrong thing.

I should have said he only climbs on the stove when I am cooking. So I think it is more about wanting to be with me than wanting to climb. That is the frustrating part because I used to love cooking, but I feel it is the one thing I can't do safely while carrying him. I tried getting a back carrier, but he did not like that at all. I feel like I have given up on all but the easiest meals. One day I hope to include him in this, but for now he just throws things on the floor.

I am totally with you on the Charlie Brown thing. That is what I meant by giving positive commands. I am glad to know my son is not totally behind the curve! I also have a 17 year old daughter, and she used plates and bowls just fine by about a year old. They couldn't be more polar opposites. She also slept well and did not climb on things, so I was really not prepared for my little whirlwind! I just got tired of going out to dinner and putting his food right on the table LOL. Waiters were starting to look at us like we were crazy.

Joanna: Sounds like we have twins separated at birth! We thought we wanted to have another baby, but now I don't see how I could do it. I am too old! Kudos to you. Yeah, distractions are great if you don't need to do anything else! I am in awe now of people that have small children and even manage to keep their house clean LOL.

Ours does throw things too, but that is mostly our fault because we started teaching him to throw as soon as we was able so he could play fetch with the dog. Now I am a bit sorry about that because he doesn't really understand the etiquette of throwing and will chuck blocks and other hard toys when he is in groups. He also hits when he is mad, and that really bums me out. He has never been hit, never been to daycare or around kids that hit, doesn't watch TV, so where does it come from?

Yeah, I think it is the conscious choosing to do the wrong thing that bothers me the most about all this. I thought one of the ideas behind GD was that children want to do the right thing and please their parents. There are times I KNOW my son knows he is doing a nono. Sometimes he will get ahold of something he is not supposed to have or be dumping the water out of his sippy cup and I will not see him right away if I am doing something. Then when he sees me look at him, he goes running away. :

OK, another novel - sorry folks.

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yay! I love when I help somebody But I gotta give credit where it's due- Becoming The Parent You Want to Be, which I was going to recommend to the op, as it is directed at young kids

to the op- my ds is 20 mos, and not verbal. Seriously, the only word he uses properly and consistently is "Aarf" lol. (We have 2 dogs)

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In addition to telling him more appropriate ways of interacting with the dog ("be gentle") also give him more appropriate ways of communicating how he's feeling. My ds doesn't hit the dogs anymore, but on rare occasions. But I did notice him hitting one because she was in his face. Once we told him a few times that he could hust hold his hand up (like a stop sign, right in front of her face), he started doing that instead.
Or, is he just experimenting with what happens when he hits different objects? If so, tell him the dog doesn't like to be hit, and that he can hit the couch, the wall, the door, etc.
It's that "honor the impulse"- but first you have to know WHAT the original impulse was- was he trying to pet her? or was he trying to tell her something?

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Perhaps he wants to see up on top of things- like from your viewpoint. They love to do what we do! If you think that might be his "impulse" then I'd suggest getting him a stepstool he can climb on, and put it near a safe counter- then redirect him to that, and keep telling him why.
Or if you think its just a climbing thing, try to find some fun things that are safe for him to climb on, and redirect him to that.

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Hmmm...ds throws food on the floor, but that's only because he wants to feed the dogs. I don't say much, unless he starts to give them ALL his food, and I know he'll want to eat it.
Oh, actually, he does sometimes throw breakfast dishes on the floor. I usually just say "Hey, that doesn't belong there" or tell him it makes a mess, or that I'd rather he not throw plates, or something. But it doesn't happen often. Now that I think about it, he only does it in the kitchen on the hard floor- maybe he thinks it sounds cool! lol.

I don't ignore anything I don't like. If it bothers me, I tell him. But if its not a huge deal (like throwing plates on the floor- not a big deal to me. It may be to others, and that's ok too) I let him decide what to do with that info. So, he's free to continue. Even if it doesn't stop it at that time, I think he's less likely to do it the next time. I do ask him to help clean up if he makes a mess.

I ought to add, that he doesn't throw food on the floor anywhere else- and we eat at relatives' homes often.

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I usually write novels lol. Ds definitely knows that some things are not ok. Like hitting, or throwing hard objects. And most of the time, he remembers it. When he does forget, or loses impulse control, it usually just takes a gentle reminder.
My basic "plan" that I follow to get him to stop doing something is to give info (which usually includes how his actions affect others), empathize, and give acceptable alternatives that honor the original impulse (redirect). Imo, the redirecting is the most important part at this age!
I don't know if I have an easy kid (I doubt it- he was a HIGH NEED baby lol, and we still have major toddler moments) or if I just stumbled upon the best way of interacting with him, but that really does it most of the time. (Getting him TO DO something, is a different thing entirely! lol)
Oh, and I find that using a stern voice isn't productive for us. A matter-of-fact but pleasant voice or even a fun voice are way more effective.

My ds is or has gone through similar things. I have worked a lot on my own perceptions of what situations actually "are" problems. But yes, the ones you mention... handling pets, throwing/hitting (same range of motion... I think too similar an idea) etc. have required me to be persistent (requires lots of patience). I keep showing ds how to give gentle touches/soft touches to a friend's cat... usually ds repeats what I am doing for a little bit before pulling tail again. Even though it seems so repetitious I keep telling him gentle touches, and that hitting gives owies/hurts the cat.

As for throwing things, I think that's hard because a lot of people like to give my ds a high 5... so that's like throwing and hitting motion that he also does... So I think that encourages him to do it and perhaps he doesn't separate when it's ok to do that motion and when it's not ok. So I generally look at each specific action... for instance if he's hit me once I may let it go by asking him not to hit me... if he's staring right at me and hits and hits, then I move myself away from him and tell him he hurt me, and that it's not ok to hit mom. We have tried to link ideas to help with ds inflicting pain.... so he knows what it's like to get hurt, so when he has caused pain by throwing/hitting I sometimes point out (if it's on purpose) what he did caused the other child pain. I do suggest he give him a kiss or hug to make him feel better.

I keep thinking that maybe it would be easier to keep throwing things to be an outside game for now... so I could say no throwing in the house? When he throws food, it's usually because I have ignored him when he says he's done with his meal... if I hope he'll eat more, after he's said he's done, he generally reminds me that's full... So I try to respond when he says he's done, adn I tell him if he's done to tell me he's done or ask to get down... but to leave the food on teh table.

AS for the kitchen... I htink I would find or make a gate or other safety device to keep him off it. I wouldn't even risk it at this point because they are at such an emotional stage... not as much logic as we may want them to have... so if he decides he wants to climb the stove, it just shouldn't b e an option... is there something he likes to look at up there? Would getting a learning tower allow him to help more safely? If it's just a climbing thing, I agree with giving a different clmbing option. I'd continue saying without any doubt in my voice how it's only to be used by grownups... and if all else fails you may simply have to settle for being prepared to treat a burn when it does happen.

I'm babbling now, but good luck. I keep wondering how often I'm going to have to repeat myself somedays But keep doing it because I think it's worth it.

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Are you worried he'll think its ok to climb at other houses? My ds is free to climb on most everything at home, but only once has tried at other houses. He tried climbing on my mom's coffee table once, and I told him we ought to ask if it was ok. It was ok, but he hasn't tried to climb on it since.

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Can you give him stuff to pretend to mix, on the floor? Have him help stir something? Could you prepare some of your food down at his level? I do that with cereal- I put both our bowls on the floor, and he helps pour.
Or what about a cabinet with stuff that's safe for him to play with.
Or, can you give him a task? Sometimes, that's all it takes for my ds to be happy on the floor (as opposed to being held). I'll ask him to put something in the laundry, or the sink. Or I'll ask him to open the fridge door for me.

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I know what you're talking about. But I don't see that stuff the same way. I don't think I can put it into words. I'll think about it, and see if I can. Its the same way I view "testing"- It seems to me that what he's doing seems perfectly reasonable to him. It seems natural for ds to want to do certain things.
I gave up trying to get him to not pour water lol. He does pour it into containers, and not on the floor, so that works for me.

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OK, that's kind of a different thing, then - I thought it was just climbing it in general. He just wants to be with you, which is understandable. At about 18 months, I set DS up on a step stool at the sink with some water and spoons and cups, and let him "cook" in there with me. I put old towels that are gonna be washed anyway on the floor to soak up spills. And he LOVES it. He's up, and can "see" what i'm doing, but he's safely away from the hot surface and occupied on his own.

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Oh man, if this next babe is MORE energetic than DS, I'm in dutch! Let's hope he/she is the polar opposite of DS, and I get a break

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Yup, here too. He went through a hitting phase and it was hard on me because I've never laid a hand on him, DH and I don't "play around hit", or anything. The good news is it will stop - I think his lasted a few months, but he hasn't done it in a while.

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Ah, here is where it's helpful to tweak your perception...realize that even though he may *know* to not do something, his brain isn't wired yet to have reliable impulse control...that's not going to happen until close to 3 years or so (especially in "tornado" kids!) So I don't think of his looks at me as saying, "I know I'm doing something you don't want me to, but I don't care, so there!", BUT "Mom, I know I'm not supposed to do this.....but....can't....control.....my.....arm!". AND, since we're not "fearing" them into not doing things (by hitting or shaming them), their little brains just can't stop themselves, especially when it's somehting they really want to see happen, like taking the track ball out of mommy's mouse and chucking it down the steps.

I've come to realize GD is mostly about realizing kids' developmental stages, and realizing that it's not "us versus them", but "us" working together towards a goal. Another mama on another thread said something like, 'I'm not raising my children to be "good" children, I'm raising them to be good MEN.' I really like that, because I also parent with my long term goals in mind, which are preserving DS's spirit and guiding him and explaining the right thing (without expecting him to do it before he's developmentally ready). I want him to *understand* things, not just do them because I said so - because what happens when he's older (like a teen) and I'm not around to say anything?

Disclaimer: I will expect things from DS as he grows up, in an age appropriate manner. I think one of the reasons GD gets a bad name is that people don't expect anything, or give enough credit to their children (but then again, I don't consider that GD, I consider that hands off)...as far as I'm concerned, that's as unfair as expecting too much from them. **Disclaimer over.

Whew, some great stuff in here.

I keep going back to the dog, because that is the hardest one for me. We have been modeling how to touch her and telling him to be gentle since he was born. I even would put his hands on her in a petting motion when he was just an infant. For a long time, it seemed to work. It has just lately been getting worse, and the exact problem is we don't know what the impulse is. It is definitely NOT the dog bothering him. Another thing he likes to do is straddle her like a horse - she is about 60 pounds. He will just be playing fine and the next thing I know he is pounding on her with a toy or grabbing handfuls of her fur - she has a really long coat. I have found saying, "Be nice," doesn't work anymore. I have to actually go and physically change what he is doing. Although if I say, "Show me nice hands," he immediately starts petting her flat handed and/or will give her a big hug. So he knows what to do. With the toys, I have redirected him and shown him he can pound his toy on something else, but the fur pulling I can't figure out. Maybe she is just soft and it feels nice? I suppose I could try finding a toy with soft fur. The problem with that is then the dog attacks them and destroys them LOL.

Kitchen: Yeah, he does really like to do tasks. I don't think putting him by himself on the floor would work as I think he wants to be with me. And I am not sure I am up to getting on the floor to do stuff myself! My back is a bit weak. He already has his own cupboard. That didn't last at all. My cousin recommended an empty dishwasher and letting him put tupperwear in and out. That worked - once. If I give that one enough time off, it will hold his attention for a bit, but it is not a staple. Playing in the sink might work. The other day I just need to really get my kitchen cleaned up. Right now there is too much on the counters he can reach. I did let him put lettuce leaves on paper towels to drain the other day after I had washed them, and that worked almost to the end until he started throwing the leaves back in the sink. I just need to figure out a good place for him and the right tasks.

Climbing: I guess I do worry he will seem like a child raised by wolves in other people's homes. That gives me hope that they can understand not to do the same things in a different location.

Really glad to hear about Becoming the Parent You Want to Be. I am going to recommend it to the AP book club I am in. My biggest complaint about all the books I have read lately is they don't seem applicable to a young toddler.

Husband here.

Just wanted to thank you all for some of the comments, and I love the term "tornado" child... well, love/hate I guess

Both Neomia and I have much older children (16 and 17) who were so opposite of our squirt that we really don't know how to handle him yet. We're trying, I can tell you Neomia is much better at it than I am. I get frustrated so easily, and its not fair to our son that I do.

Maybe try "checking in" with him when he's playign with the dog, like right when he approaches, and after a couple minutes, and another couple minutes...to remind him to stay gentle. If he can show you "gentle hands" when you ask him, maybe just keep reminding him every few minutes to use his gentle hands? Dunno, that's a hard one for me, we don't have a dog yet (we're waiting until this next babe is 4 or so).

I had someone suggest to me setting DS up at the sink with bubbles, but, well, he was always trying to lick them. He's much better with plain water. If you think your DS wouldn't eat them, then maybe that could be a neat thing for him to do while you cook, a sinkfull of bubbles.

Yeah, we completely cleared our countertops of everything he could reach, and recently reorganized the one cupboard shelf he can get to now from his stepstool to only include boxes of dry goods, no heavy cans (those are now on the next shelf he can't reach).

Glad you feel better and have some ideas; just keep doing what you're doing and keep coming with questions, the mamas here have helped me with some great ideas for my own predicaments!

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Hey, "tornado" mom here .

I have to applaud both of you for coming here instead of falling into the same destructive patterns that many people do when they have a persistant, energetic child...

My DH is less patient than I am, and I think the single most important thing I've been able to communicate to him that's helped him feel better and more patient is that when he asks DS to do/not do something, if it doesn't get done after the first or second request, he needs to help facilitate it right away, that way he doesn't lose his patience....of course, he complains that it means he has to "get off his [email protected]@", but I know he sees it working. If you get up and facilitate your request right away, you're not at the point where you've asked 7 times and are goign to snap at them (which believe me, took me a little bit to figure out myself). Yeah, you may have to facilitate it 7.3 billion times, but better that than the alternative, right? And eventually, it WILL sink in.

We've gotten to the point now where he responds to verbal requests from us about 50% of the time the first or second time, which is an amazing improvement from the 0% we started out with!!

Keep hanging around, this is a great forum!!!