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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Soooo... In the past 24 hours I have gotten into debates/discussions about 2 issues, about both of which I am fairly passionate. I was not as quick on my feet as I would have liked however, and I feel like I came across as not as well versed as I would have liked to. I think nothing kills the credibility of a cause (especially one that is often viewed as "super" liberal or "crunchy") like a spokesperson who doesn't have hard facts and evidence at their fingertips/on the tip of their tongue. The next time these two topics come up, I would like to be better equipped to discuss them, so if you can help, please weigh in!<br><br><b>Issue 1: The Prius vs. Hummer debate</b><br>
My dad, who I love <i>very</i> much but disagree with very much in terms of politics and environmental issues, brought up <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2007/06/04/EDGI7Q63U01.DTL" target="_blank">this</a> study about a Hummer being a "greener" car than the Prius. I can find plenty of evidence to refute this claim, but all of the evidence comes from sources that I think my father would take issue with - mainly environmental/green think tanks and liberal news sources. I am looking for a source that refutes this claim that is more...middle of the road. A source that he could believe in and trust. Like Time. Or CNN. Or US News and World Report. This is a man who has told me - with a straight face - that he "<i>doesn't believe in global warming.</i>" I need a source that will appeal to his...<i>conservative</i> sensibilities. (My dad truly is a wonderful, wonderful man in many ways. And he has always been very supportive of my choices in how I raise my kids and live my life, even if they do involve crazy hare-brained ideas that he doesn't understand like delayed vaxing, eliminating plastics, buying organic - so please, be kind <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/shy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="innocent">.)<br><br><b>Issue 2: Plastic Sippy Cups</b><br>
I am in the process of phasing out all plastic sippy cups (as well as all plastic food storage and non-stick cookware)from my kitchen. I got rid of the BPA/#7 stuff months ago, but now am targeting all the other plastics. I know that the #5 plastics are supposedly safe/fine, but I am concerned that down the road it will become clear that all plastics are questionable. In the meantime I would prefer that my kids drink out of Klean Kanteens or Siggs and that they eat off of glass plates. I have had a few friends and family members question me on this choice. They are not satisfied with the "I am just more comfortable not having them eat/drink out of/off of plastic" response. They want hard evidence that plastic is potentially dangerous. Thoughts on responses to shut down the nay-sayers? These are very well educated people - we're talking LOTS of higher education and advanced degrees - they think I am being silly, and have been sucked into believing that Playtex insulators are evil. In reality, I think they are simply second guessing themselves. To be honest, it is not my business, nor am I even interested in what they choose to do with their kids - if, after researching the options they are comfortable with offering plastic sippies to their kids, I am fine with that. But I need some snappy statistic or fact to diffuse their interest/skepticism in <i><b>my</b></i> choice.<br><br>
Come on, mamas - help me out!
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>3*is*magic</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11626796"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Soooo...<br><b>Issue 1: The Prius vs. Hummer debate</b><br>
My dad, who I love <i>very</i> much but disagree with very much in terms of politics and environmental issues, brought up <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2007/06/04/EDGI7Q63U01.DTL" target="_blank">this</a> study about a Hummer being the "greener" car than the Prius. I can find plenty of evidence to refute this claim, but all of the evidence comes from sources that I think my father would take issue with - mainly environmental/green think tanks and liberal news sources. I am looking for a source that refutes this claim that is more...middle of the road. A source that he could believe in and trust. Like Time. Or CNN. Or US News and World Report. This is a man who has told me - with a straight face - that he "<i>doesn't believe in global warming.</i>" I need a source that will appeal to his...<i>conservative</i> sensibilities. (My dad truly is a wonderful, wonderful man in many ways. And he has always been very supportive of my choices in how I raise my kids and live my life, even if they do involve crazy hare-brained ideas that he doesn't understand like delayed vaxing, eliminating plastics, and buying organic - so please, be kind <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/shy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="innocent">.)<br><br><b>Issue 2: Plastic Sippy Cups</b><br>
I am in the process of phasing out all plastic sippy cups (as well as all plastic food storage and non-stick cookware)from my kitchen. I got rid of the BPA/#7 stuff months ago, but now am targeting all the other plastics. I know that the #5 plastics are supposedly to be safe/fine, but I am concerned that down the road it will become clear that all plastics are questionable. In the meantime I would prefer that my kids are drinking out of Klean Kanteens or Siggs and that they eat off of glass plates. I have had a few friends and family members question me on this choice. They are not satisfied with the "I am just more comfortable not having them eat/drink out of/off of plastic" response. They want hard evidence that plastic is potentially dangerous. Thoughts on responses to shut down the nay-sayers? These are very well educated people - we're talking LOTS of higher education and advanced degrees - they think I am being silly, and have been sucked into believing that Playtex insulators are evil. In reality, I think they are simply second guessing themselves. To be honest, it is not my business, nor am I even interested in what they choose to do with their kids - if, after researching the options they are comfortable with offering plastic sippies to their kids, I am fine with that. But I need some snappy statistic or fact to diffuse their interest/skepticism in <i><b>my</b></i> choice.<br><br>
Come on, mamas - help me out!</div>
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Are we sisters? Because that sounds just like my dad! With one exception: He hates Hummers as much as I do. Alas, he does not believe in global warming either...but he supports homeschooling! Go figure...<br><br>
So, sorry I have no help for you, I just needed to make sure we weren't related. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink">
 

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hey there....that sounds just like my dad too....and I am constantly at a loss for non-left leaning sources to support my point of view, (As soon as I say I heard this piece on NPR, he starts laughing before I even begin talking <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll"> ....although we have agreed to diagree and tease each other good-naturedly about the hot button issues....)<br><br>
wish I could be of more help, but just wanted to let you know you have a kindred spirit!
 

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For the plastic. There is lots of current news articles about the #7/bpa plastic. If they are at all aware of current events they will have seen something on this. I would simply say "I may be being overly cautious but I worry that it won't be long before we hear more types of plastic are unsafe."
 

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articles:<br><a href="http://www.thecarconnection.com/article/1010861_prius-versus-hummer-exploding-the-myth" target="_blank">http://www.thecarconnection.com/arti...oding-the-myth</a><br><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/27/meanest.greenest/index.html" target="_blank"><br>
CNN's Greenest and Meanest cars</a><br><br>
OT for those needingZ CNN articles about other things:<br><a href="http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/health/2008/07/03/intv.going.green.organic.krieger.cnn" target="_blank">Organic is good for everybody</a><br><br><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/family/06/19/ep.vaccines/index.html" target="_blank">Alternative vaccine schedules</a>
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>koofie</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11630858"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">articles:<br><a href="http://www.thecarconnection.com/article/1010861_prius-versus-hummer-exploding-the-myth" target="_blank">http://www.thecarconnection.com/arti...oding-the-myth</a><br><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/27/meanest.greenest/index.html" target="_blank"><br>
CNN's Greenest and Meanest cars</a><br><br>
OT for those neededing CNN articles about other things:<br><a href="http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/health/2008/07/03/intv.going.green.organic.krieger.cnn" target="_blank">Organic is good for everybody</a><br><br><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/family/06/19/ep.vaccines/index.html" target="_blank">Alternative vaccine schedules</a></div>
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Thank you!!<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/treehugger.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Treehugger">:
 

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not sure on the hummer vs prius thing. we wouldn't buy either car so, i've never looked into the issue.<br><br>
as for the plastics in the house. we did this a while back, removed all plastics from the kitchen. we started before christmas, last fall sometime i think.<br><br>
the ONLY person i had issue with was my MIL. my mom got all weird about it, but she is really undereducated about a lot of stuff that people should be educating themselves about. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"> my MIL is too for that matter, but at least my MIL has two daughters and a son and daughter in law that are passionate about being green. my mom just has me <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">.<br><br>
as for my MIL i didn't try to explain or rationalize i just told her that we were doing no more plastics, especially if the kids touch it. i told her that we were getting rid of all things that touch food and while we hadn't figured out what to do about toys like legos yet, we didn't want anymore plastic toys entering the home. this was last nov. i think???<br><br>
she ended up buying some enamalware plates, bowls and cups for the girls, which was very nice. and then she bought my third child LEGOS for christmas. and was offended when i asked her to take them to her house and the kids could play with them there when they come to visit. she sent a rude email about "thanking me for keeping toxic and dangerous items away from the kids." so, i basically figured WHY BOTHER? why waste the energy trying to explain.<br><br>
just go ahead with your schedule and people can piss and moan if they want to. eventually people forget and get over it. we've been plastic free for a while now, and my MIL still sends us food in tupperware and plastic bags. my SIL and her hubby have actually outlawed plastic bags in their home. and for mother's day i gave my MIL a dozen cloth grocery bags. she is pretty thick!!<br><br>
i wanted to add that my MIL and FIL are highly educated as well. both have master's degrees, and my hubby and his one sister both have their PhDs and my other SIL has her law degree. but they do seem to be the hardest ones to convince or change. my SIL and BIL didn't even believe in recycling until not too long ago, like last year LOL. they are having their first baby in dec. and they are much better now. no more plastics, they plan on breastfeeding and using cloth. so, i think we're slowly influencing them for the better. i just stand firm!
 

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This man did a program on <a href="http://www.kexp.org" target="_blank">www.kexp.org</a> about BPA on the Mind Over Matters segment on a Saturday morning -- WOW.<br><br><a href="http://endocrinedisruptors.missouri.edu/vomsaal/vomsaal.html" target="_blank">http://endocrinedisruptors.missouri....l/vomsaal.html</a><br><br><a href="http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&artid=1332691" target="_blank">http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...&artid=1332691</a><br><br>
We haven't had any out of town visitors since I've implemented a ton of changes, and changed my mind and become more vocal about others. T minus 16 days and counting and it should be reallllllly interesting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for the additional info, Mamas. I definitely plan to use those links the next time I get the third degree from family/friends.<br><br>
I have been thinking a lot about what really bugs me about the reaction I get from family/friends, and I think it's the "all or nothing" attitude I get. When I tell people that we have moved away from using plastic sippies and are trying to replace our food storage with glass, the response (typically) is, "Yeah, but what about your kids' Legos/that cooking oil that came in a plastic jug/that plate you just served pancakes off of?" I feel as though so many people feel as though changing your ways needs to be a an all-or-nothing proposition. Why bother using cloth bags when you still use conventional shampoo? Why give up Windex if you still use Spray-n-Wash? I feel like this attitude is totally undermining the "go green" movement. The skeptics constantly upbraid people for not being consistent enough and seem content to throw out the baby with the bath water. I feel like I need to start a personal <b><i>"just make <span style="text-decoration:underline;">one</span> change"</i></b> campaign. Perhaps that will make people realize that it's NOT crazy to make small changes in the interest of the long term impact.<br><br>
*sigh*
 

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I totally agree 3*is*magic - for too many people, they can't understand that just buying organic when you CAN makes a difference. Even if you don't buy organic 100% of the time. Every dollar counts! EVERY purchase counts! And if you can buy green/organic just 5 or 10% of the time, thats great! If you can do so 15 or 25 or 35 or 50 % of the time, thats fantastic! but even if you can only do so 1% of the time, that STILL HELPS!
 

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Do you really want to debate these things? Cause you aren't really going to change anyone's mind and sometimes I think it makes people sound uncertain of their own choices. Like they want other people to agree with them.<br><br>
I wouldn't even argue a Prius vs. a hummer nor would I justify using glass over plastic. It's just how we do it in my house - no reason needed.<br><br>
(and we aren't totally plastic-free but phasing there).
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Ellien C</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11659595"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Do you really want to debate these things? Cause you aren't really going to change anyone's mind and sometimes I think it makes people sound uncertain of their own choices. Like they want other people to agree with them.<br><br>
I wouldn't even argue a Prius vs. a hummer nor would I justify using glass over plastic. It's just how we do it in my house - no reason needed.<br><br>
(and we aren't totally plastic-free but phasing there).</div>
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Nope, I don't <i>want</i> to debate them at all. And I rarely point out or start discussions about the not-so-mainstream things we do. But people who know us well ask questions/make comments ("Where did you get that strange sippy cup? How much did it cost? Don't you know that you can get plastic ones at Wal Mart for $3 a pop? You bring your own bags to the store? If I'm buying stuff from them, the least they can do is give me a bag to bring it home in! Don't you have any of that plastic tupperware you can buy at Target? It's makes life so much easier!") and I am at a loss for how to shut the discussion down without seeming rude or like I am not confident in my choices.
 

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i think i'd just stop the conversations with them. i would say this is what we do and this is what we are comfortable with, and beyond that i'm not going to discuss it unless you are interested in learning more.<br><br>
some people will NEVER be ok with the "different." how you spend your money, is ONLY YOUR business. and if you'd rather buy a klean kanteen than a 3.00 sippy cup, that's your decision. as long as your partner and children are all on the same page that is all that matters!!!<br><br>
as for the all or none. everything starts somewhere, right? so maybe you are still buying stuff in plastic containers, we are too. but, since not every company on the planet feels the same way about plastic i have the fight that fights i can win. and for me that started with plastics that come in touch with my kids food, drinks, and could be chewed or sucked on. if i could buy EVERYTHING in something other than plastic i just might. but right now, that isn't even an option.<br><br>
small changes lead to bigger ones and any change is the right direction is a good change! last summer we made what i considered a small change, we planted a veggie garden. ok, not small small, but i didn't put too much thought or energy into it and WOW what an impact it had on our lives. so, we did it again and then joined an organic CSA to make sure we had organic farm fresh fruit and veggies from june til oct.<br><br>
stand your ground, stop laborious conversations, and keep making those small changes. they might even rub off on other family members, you never know!
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>3*is*magic</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11659831"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Nope, I don't <i>want</i> to debate them at all. And I rarely point out or start discussions about the not-so-mainstream things we do. But people who know us well ask questions/make comments ("Where did you get that strange sippy cup? How much did it cost? Don't you know that you can get plastic ones at Wal Mart for $3 a pop?</div>
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Yes, I know that, but I prefer to use these.
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">You bring your own bags to the store? If I'm buying stuff from them, the least they can do is give me a bag to bring it home in!</td>
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I find the cloth bags easier to use- these shoulder straps make them so much easeir to carry in from the car- those plastic bags hurt my hands!
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Don't you have any of that plastic tupperware you can buy at Target? It's makes life so much easier!")</td>
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Nope, we don't have any. We prefer not to use it.
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">and I am at a loss for how to shut the discussion down without seeming rude or like I am not confident in my choices.</td>
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Just keep it about you, not them. People get defensive when you imply that your choices are "better" than theirs, but if you just give simplistic, selfish reasons for why you do what you do, they won't bat an eyelash. It reminds me of the time I shared a car with a smoker on a long car ride- I was pg with DD1 at the time. She got super defensive when I mentioned the health hazards of secondhand smoke to fetuses "I smoked while pg and my kids are fine" (later I found out that one has asthma) but she had absolutely no problems with "Could you please not smoke near or upwind of me? I don't like the smell."<br><br>
It should be easy enough to avoid car-buying arguments- people don't buy cars all that often, and generally accept that the car you're currently driving was selected because it fits your budget and family's needs.<br><br>
And whoever asked about "why worry about sippy cups when you're using a plastic plate?" I'd just be simple and say something like "We're doing this in baby steps. I'm cutting <b>down</b> on plastic, we havent' completely cut it out yet."
 

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Re: the plastic sippies...there's an article in the newest Time magazine (it came in the mail yesterday, so next week's issue?) about that. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 
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