Help me please...need credible links!

Kim22 · Jun 14, 2004

Hi Everyone! I'm due with a son in October. After reading through many of these threads, you've all informed me about what a circumcision really entails. Before I found this forum, I was with the mentality of, "I'll let DH decide since he has a penis and I don't." Well, now I know I was wrong. I've read through here and done some research on my own and know that I do NOT want my son circumcised. Thanks for showing me the light! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"> 
However, DH is still on the fence, but leaning more toward circumcising. (This baby will NOT be circ'd, I just want it to "seem" like DH has some say in the matter!) KWIM? I'm hoping that he'll 'decide' not to circ, so it won't be an issue. 
I've got him convinced that there's no medical need for it. His main concern is the social/locker room aspect. He doesn't want our son to be made fun of. I've read that the midwest region (we're in Wisconsin with no real plans of moving) has the highest number of circumcisions in the country. So, I don't know whether or not the numbers will reach anywhere near 50/50 here by the time our son is in a locker room. ??? 
DH says he's willing to read whatever I want him to, as long as it's from a credible source. He's just having a hard time getting past the social part, because there was one kid in school who wasn't circ'd and he got made fun of. 
Help! Any ideas on things to say to him? Any good links? Thanks so much for your help! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">

TigerTail · Jun 14, 2004

no links, but i am also here with a huge circ'ing population. seriously, does your dh think that if non-circ'd dude he went to school with had gone in educated (instead of with the attitude no doubt of 'we're too poor, boo-hoo', which seems to have been common back then), expressing pity for the boys whose parents CUT OFF PART OF THEIR WEINERS, the locker room thing might've gone differently? 
i think anything involving knives & penises will get men's (and boys') attention if it is gently explained; cultural saturation can only go so far. 
suse

A&A · Jun 14, 2004

Check out this thread: <a href="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=153334" target="_blank">http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=153334</a>

A&A · Jun 14, 2004

Also, as SuseyBlue indicated, education is the key. I love how Sarah once put it, "Your son has to go into high school armed with more than just a little scar on his penis." 
Your son needs to know of his GENITAL INTEGRITY. That means that this wasn't just some "choice" you made. NO ONE, repeat, no one, has the right to cut off his body parts for no good reason. You protected what God and/or Mother Nature gave him. Armed with that knowledge, you can teach your son how to appropriately respond if/when teasing occurs. As I told my sister, I'm not about to let potential future high-school bullies dictate how I raise my son.

Frankly Speaking · Jun 14, 2004

Hmmmmm. . . . . . your husband is willing to risk your son's life on the off chance that someone may say something about him not having amputative genital surgery? I know, I know. 
The fact of the matter is that there are far fewer chances that this will come up now simply because of the way newer locker rooms are built. We are also in a much more politically correct environment than way back then and I only see it as getting more politically correct. I think the stories of boys getting ridiculed are also blown way out of proportion. I went to school when there was no such thing as politically correct and I can't remember a single time the teasing ever happened. As a matter of fact, the only time I can remember anyone saying anything about anyone being intact was in college. One of the guys, Hank was huge down there and intact. What got all of the guys attention was that Hank was HUGE and intact. Intact was just a side note. It is also notable that Hank's father was a doctor. 
Kim, instead of you being on the defensive, you need to put your husband on the defensive. Not having surgery performed on a newborn to cut off parts of his genitals is the normal thing to do. Cutting off genital parts or any parts for superflourous social reasons is an abnormal thing to do. Tell him that if he insists on having it done, he's got to give you a good medical reason from a reliable resource to justify it, otherwise, it's just not going to be done, no arguments! I can assure you, he will never find medical justification for it. 
I would also put your husband on notice that he will be the one explaining to your 15 year old son why he took such liberties with his genitals and that you will be saying that you were firmly against it if your son ever asks. I suspect he will have less concern about any locker room comments than he will about a very difficult confrontation with your teenage son where he will be totally to blame and will have no support from you. 
Frank

Kim22 · Jun 14, 2004

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<div style="font-style:italic;">I would also put your husband on notice that he will be the one explaining to your 15 year old son why he took such liberties with his genitals and that you will be saying that you were firmly against it if your son ever asks. I suspect he will have less concern about any locker room comments than he will about a very difficult confrontation with your teenage son where he will be totally to blame and will have no support from you.</div>
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Thanks for the help, everyone! Keep the advice coming! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"> 
Frank, I tried this. He said, "What do you think? He's going to be 30 and sitting at home crying because he doesn't have a foreskin?" I said, "I don't know if he would or not, but if he does, I don't want to be the one who caused it!" His response, "I'm willing to take that risk." 
I know he sounds like an insensitive jerk when I write stuff like this. However, he's really not. He's just very misinformed about this issue. I'm trying very hard to educate him. You probably won't believe me after I wrote out that conversation, though, huh?! I promise he's a very caring man who would do anything for me and his kids, he just needs some insight into why this is not the right decision. KWIM? It's been ingrained into his head that circumcision is normal and being left intact is not, since that's the way it was when we were kids. (We are 24 & 25 years old.) I need to get that out of his head! 
I will definitely have him read this <a href="http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/fleiss.html" target="_blank">http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/fleiss.html</a> and see what he thinks about it. Hopefully since it's written by a doctor he'll think it's credible enough. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"> 
Please keep the info coming! Thanks so much! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">

Quirky · Jun 14, 2004

I would say, remind your dh that you want to raise an individual, not a lemming. 
After all, in high school ds will likely get pressured to drink, do drugs, smoke, have sex, play in a rock n roll band, whatever - do you want him to do those things just because other kids are doing them too, and he'll get teased if he doesn't? 
Also remind your dh that kids are often cruel and will find things to tease about no matter what. When I was young, I was teased for being fat and for wearing glasses. My sister was teased for being skinny. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/shrug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="shrug"> Teasing seems to be a part of life for so many kids - it isn't right, but the way to stop teasing and bullying is NOT by being a conformist and hoping that the teasing will pass your child by, but by teaching your child self-confidence and self-respect. 
Good luck, mama - you can do it! Once your beautiful intact ds gets here, I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that within a month or two your dh will be going <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/duh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="duh"> "How could I even think about taking a knife to his perfect little body??!!" 
ETA: we cross-posted. If your ds were to read these articles at age 30, he might very well sit in his room crying about his missing foreskin. 
Structure and function of foreskin (medical research): <a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/taylor/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/taylor/</a> <a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/cold-taylor/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/cold-taylor/</a> <a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/</a> <a href="http://research.cirp.org/" target="_blank">http://research.cirp.org/</a> <a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/</a> <a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/garcia/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/garcia/</a> 
The lost list: <a href="http://www.norm-socal.org/lost.htm" target="_blank">http://www.norm-socal.org/lost.htm</a> 
Sexual problems caused by circumcision: 
SENSITIVITY LOSS: <a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/taylor/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/taylor/</a> <a href="http://www.cirp.org/news/nocirc12-7-00/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/news/nocirc12-7-00/</a> <a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/money/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/money/</a> <a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/fink1/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/fink1/</a> 
***anecdotal** <a href="http://www.noharmm.org/numbness.htm" target="_blank">http://www.noharmm.org/numbness.htm</a> 
INSUFFICIENT SKIN TO ACCOMODATE ERECTION (SHORTER PENIS): 
In a study investigating the adequacy of condom sizes, Richters, Gerofi, 
and Donovan noted that circumcised men had significantly shorter erect 
penises by a mean length of 8mm than genitally intact men (p<.05). The 
difference in erect penile size was attributed to insufficient skin to 
accommodate the erection. 
Richters J, Gerofi J,Donovan B. Are condoms the right size(s)? A method for 
self-measurement of the erect penis. Venereology 1995;8:77-81 
PREMATURE EJACULATION: <a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/vissing1/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/vissing1/</a> <a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/money/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/money/</a> 
ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14979200&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract</a> <a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/fink1/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/fink1/</a> <a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/stinson/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/stinson/</a> 
NOTE: Since the efficacy rate for ED drugs is about 80%, the causes of ED 
are mostly physiological and we do not need to evoke some nebulous 
psychological reason for the resulting ED cases in this article. 
Impotence and adult circumcision. Stinson JM. Journal of the National 
Medical Association 1973;65:161,179. <a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/stief1/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/stief1/</a>

A&A · Jun 14, 2004

Here's another link to show him: <a href="http://www.noharmm.org/appeal.htm" target="_blank">http://www.noharmm.org/appeal.htm</a> 
Also keep in mind that your dh wants to think that HE is normal, and therefore circ is normal. If you're trying to convince him that circ is not normal, then some men take that personally. 
You have to let him know that you love him/desire him JUST THE WAY HE IS but also let him know that circ will NOT be happening to your son, end of discussion. It's a delicate balance to protect both your son's bodily integrity and your dh's ego, but I know you can do it! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">

Frankly Speaking · Jun 15, 2004

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<div style="font-style:italic;">Frank, I tried this. He said, "What do you think? He's going to be 30 and sitting at home crying because he doesn't have a foreskin?" I said, "I don't know if he would or not, but if he does, I don't want to be the one who caused it!" His response, "I'm willing to take that risk."</div>
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Kim: 
He's right that your son probably isn't going to be crying about it. We men tend to take what life has dealt us and get on with it. That doesn't mean that it doesn't bother us. There are many men who are extremely upset with our life circumstances when it comes to circumcision. 
Let him lurk here and read what some of them have to say: <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/foreskinrestoration3/" target="_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/foreskinrestoration3/</a> 
There are more than 2,000 members at that site. Maybe he should try to convince them that there is no big deal. However, that’s small potatoes! This group has more than 40,000 members: <a href="http://www.norm.org" target="_blank">www.norm.org</a> 
The argument against his argument is that if your son decides that he wants to be circumcised, that’s very easy to take care of. However, if he is circumcised and decides he doesn’t want to be, he has no options. Circumcision is final! 
Frank

woobysma · Jun 15, 2004

Hi Kim - Just wanted to add my 2 cents (I'm in a similar situation, if you saw my thread as well) - I just wanted to say that the locker room situation is different now than it was when we were younger. I'm about your age, DH is a little older (26&27), but the circ rates have fallen quite a bit since we were in high school. 
I have two intact brothers in jr. high who are active in sports and they have not had any teasing. First of all, teen age boys are not commenting on each other's penises (homophobia is more of a concern than pro-circ for teen boys ..... I know, I know, that's a whole other thread, we'll tackle that one later <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll"> ) 
second - the circ ratio is almost even these days, so it's not that strange anymore to be intact. Your DH might have gone to school when "everyone" was circ'd, but your son won't. 
Not that it will sway your DH completely, but it's another piece of ammo for your arsenal.

Kim22 · Jun 15, 2004

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<div style="font-style:italic;">the circ ratio is almost even these days, so it's not that strange anymore to be intact. Your DH might have gone to school when "everyone" was circ'd, but your son won't.</div>
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See, I can't figure out how to prove this to him. If I could, we wouldn't have any issues at all. He doesn't believe me that the U.S. is around 50/50 when it comes to circumcision. It's because we don't have any friends who have intact little boys. They've all chosen to circumcise and have convinced him that he needs to also. They tell him how the baby didn't even cry and there was hardly any bleeding and they used anesthesia. (I know that's because the baby was probably in shock, they don't, or won't admit it anyway.) Of course they're going to make it sound like it was no big deal. They're not going to admit that they purposely put their sons through all that pain and torture for no real reason. (I pointed that out and he understood my point. Thank god!) So, since we don't personally know any intact little boys, it seems like every little boy that will go to school at the same time as our son will be circ'd. Is there some way to find out the circumcision rate for our county or something? Like I said before, we live in the midwest, where the circ rates are highest in the country. Will it really be 50/50 here by the time he's in school? (Not that it matters to me, but it would certainly help my "case" if I could prove to him that people in our area, outside of our circle of friends, are leaving their sons intact. 
I know that he's ultimately going to be okay with leaving our son intact. He'll see how adament I am about it and will give in. I know he will, so it's not like I'm actually fighting for the right to leave our son intact. (I always get my way! :LOL ) I just want DH to understand...and maybe even agree with me. I don't want it to be my decision overruling his. 
Thanks for listening and for your help. Keep going, please! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">

Tinijocaro · Jun 15, 2004

Kim- have you made your dh sit down and watch a video of an actual circ? Maybe he really believes it's just a snip. Chances are, he doesn't even really know how much of the penis a foreskin is, how much damage must be done in order to remove it. <a href="http://www.intact.ca/video.html" target="_blank">http://www.intact.ca/video.html</a> 
Maybe it would help for him to learn about celbrities and other famous people who are intact (and obviously not having any trouble in the loving dept.). Could you find some of his favorite actors, sports stars, political figures and approach it that way? <a href="http://www.circumstitions.com/Famous5.html" target="_blank">http://www.circumstitions.com/Famous5.html</a> 
Come on- Prince William is intact- who could possibly argue with that??? 
I agree with th posters who say that since HE is going against medical recommendation, he must PROVE, beyond a shadow of a doubt, why it is necessary. 
Could you call some peds offices and ask if any parents of intact boys would be willing to talk to you about it? Maybe they could contact some of the parents to get permission for you to call. I have made my name and number available for parents who are in your situation. 
My dh was concerned about the locker room too, I made him call his best friend from high school (intact) and ask if he had any problems being just about the only one. He kind of laughed at dh, and said "No problems at all" That was all it took. 
Jackie

woobysma · Jun 15, 2004

Kim - Here's a link to stats from DSHS: <a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA" target="_blank">www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA</a> 
I didn't realize how varied the rates were. They're 65/35 in favor of intact penises up here in Seattle - any chance you could move <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1"> ? 
I'm sorry this doesn't really boost your case, but keep in mind - the chances are good that your son will not live in the midwest forever - he'd have a rude awakening if he went off to college to find out he's one of the only boys without a forskin...

Plaid Leopard · Jun 15, 2004

HTML:

[HTML]<b>Frank, I tried this. He said, "What do you think? He's going to be 30 and sitting at home crying because he doesn't have a foreskin?" I said, "I don't know if he would or not, but if he does, I don't want to be the one who caused it!" His response, "I'm willing to take that risk."</b><br><br>
Is he willing to take the risk that his son loses his whole penis, or bleeds to death, or many of the other things that can happen with infant circumcision?<br><br>
and BTW, my little brother - although not sitting at home crying about his lost foreskin - IS really angry about the fact that he was cut and DID confront our parents about it. It was there and it was a pretty tense moment, especially since my father offered no reason why it was done and no apologies.<br><br>
Good luck!

pdx.mothernurture · Jun 15, 2004

How bout' these two easy-to-understand articles? 
Mothering's "The Case Against Circumcision", and Men's Health's "Separated at Birth" which contains pictures of the actual procedure on every page? Here's links to both in easy-to-print PDF format: <a href="http://www.whack-a-quack.com/files/TheCase6Page.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.whack-a-quack.com/files/TheCase6Page.pdf</a> , <a href="http://www.whack-a-quack.com/files/SeparatedAtBirth.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.whack-a-quack.com/files/SeparatedAtBirth.pdf</a> . 
Also, I've heard of many having success with the "Intact Video" when other attempts at changing someone's mind about circumcision have failed. You can find it here: <a href="http://www.intact.ca/vidintro.htm" target="_blank">http://www.intact.ca/vidintro.htm</a> (WARNING: Extremely graphic.) 
HTH, 
Jen

A&A · Jun 15, 2004

I got this info off the noharmm site. Here, according to their site, is a man in Madison, WI who is circ'd and who left his son intact and who is willing to talk to other men about it: 
WISCONSIN 
Madison: 
David Foss 608-241-9558 
[call before 9pm Central] 
Now, I haven't called the guy myself, so no guarantees that his phone number is still good. But it's worth a shot, yk?

Frankly Speaking · Jun 15, 2004

I am also available to talk to anyone who needs help. PM me for a phone number. 
Frank

anythingelse · Jun 15, 2004

frank you mind reader !! I was just going to post that I would find another adult man to talk to him IRL and in person 
my dh hates online stats and for good reason, we have seen some screwy ones slanted to make points, 
IME nothing is better for a guy to see another guy in their face saying it is okay and normal not to circ. and that goes for most all parenting choices too 
Talk to a LLL group & make friends with a mom that did not circ and have her come over and change her ds in front of your hubby, do you have another preg friend with a ds toddler to come over and hang out?? 
if he can see what it looks like 'for real' & that someone you know has done this and that they are a normal regular parent - especially good to find one of his friends that is not cric'd ask them & see if you can't find someone he knows

MonicaS · Jun 15, 2004

I was also going to suggest going to LLL meetings where you will probably find a few moms of intact boys. I know I didn't know anyone IRL that didn't circ until LLL. 
Also, ask your OB for the honest numbers of circ'd to intact boy babies these days. I was very surprised when I was talking to my cousin in town who didn't want to circ the baby boy in her belly(her DH did). She asked her OB(a good ol' boy DR type even) how many are circ'd nowadays. He said only about half. I would have honestly thought it was closer to only 30% are left intact here. Her ped also told her it wasn't nec. You may be surprised by what you learn just by asking. Now, if they say only 10% are left intact, don't let that throw you. You just have to follow your convictions at that point. 
(for the record, as of 12 days old, my cousin hadn't had her boy cut, eventhough it was a daily argument between her and her DH. I haven't visited her since then, but I hope it's still true.) 
Make sure you tell everyone at the hosptial, DRs, nurses, etc that he is NOT to be circumcised! Make it very clear just in case. 
Good luck!!

Frankly Speaking · Jun 15, 2004

Instead of an OB. I'd talk to a pediatrician. An OB is going to give you numbers for his/her practice which may not truly reflect the local situation and a pediatrician will care for boys from several or many OBs and will have a better grasp on the local rate. 
Frank

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