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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I found this wonderful community after becoming completely disappointed with a expecting club forum on another website. I knew my crunchy lifestyle was different, but after the circumcision debate I decided I did not want to be amongst these women any longer, and thank goodness I found you... Which brings me to my point and question: Why, if women claim to have researched circumcision, would they still be an advocate for this procedure?<br><br>
The women on my old forum claimed to have researched the topic and insisted it is a personal decision like any other parenting decision. I disagree completely because circumcision is an elective procedure with permanent results that will have a life long effect on the child, and it comes with risks. I was blasted because I said I think it's a barbaric procedure and that I did not see how any woman could do that to her child. Boy, did the attacks ensue. Pretty much all of the mothers are either ambivalent and will therefore circ. or don't care and just want the son to be like daddy (I SO DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT ARGUMENT) or "everyone else."<br><br>
So, many claimed to have done the research and decided that circumcision is the right thing. How can anyone come to that conclusion that has really researched the topic? Please help me understand.
 

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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rocks.jpg" style="border:0px solid;" title="mdc rocks"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greet.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greet"><br><br>
I have an acquaintance that upon hearing how anti-circ I was she felt the need to say "via email" that they chose to have their son circ'd based on medical reasons. She said that I would not understand since I am not "medical." <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/dizzy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Dizzy">: She is a data entry gal in a hospital for goodness sake. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/dizzy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Dizzy">: Even if she was a medical doctor, I would not buy the "it's medically needed." She said she had seen too many "pathology reports" to not see the benefit of circ. A load of crap. She said that even though her husband was from a non-circ country, they decided to circ their poor little baby because it was so medically important. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/dizzy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Dizzy">:<br><br>
I should have had the GUTS to ask her if she and her husband also got circ'd to be in solidarity with their son and their wise rational. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/dizzy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Dizzy">: But, I did not. I just make it loud and clear all that I do to end circ via monthly email newsletters and such.<br><br>
Welcome and I hope you find some friends here. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love">
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">So, many claimed to have done the research and decided that circumcision is the right thing. <b>How can anyone come to that conclusion that has really researched the topic? Please help me understand.</b></td>
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For some people, research can't help with a <i>deep seeded cultural disorder.</i> You can do the all the research in the world but it means <b>nothing</b> if you don't know how to fully process it (understand it).
 

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Research also means different things to different people. I teach college level literature and writing, and I'm amazed by the sources students try to use in their papers -- pamphlets, personal websites, encyclopedia articles -- really whitewashed stuff, or stuff that just isn't credible. And then I try to get them to think critically about their sources, or anything for that matter, and often it's like talking to a brick wall. So if some article said circ is "more hygenic," for example, and I asked my students what that even means, I'd probably get a great big "duh."<br><br>
Welcome, btw!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
AAAHHH! I'm beginning to understand. It's about the cup being full and therfore anything poured in it will overflow. That does make sense. They simple cannot process and therefore comprehend what they have researched.<br><br>
Ivan's Mom, I still don't get the medically necessary argument unless it really is medically necessary. It doesn't make sense to treat something that is highly unlikely to ever even occur! Thanks for the warm welcome. I like it here already, I don't feel alone in my views here.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">phoebemommy: And then I try to get them to think critically about their sources, or anything for that matter, and often it's like talking to a brick wall.</td>
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I was thinking about this too. Bad sources combined with an inability to do critical thinking. These two combined (or alone) will often lead someone down the <i>wrong path.</i><br><br>
PS. Here are 2 other reason why I think people may do it even if they get all the information:<br><br>
1. Inability to empathize with another<br>
2. Cultural bias (which I was calling a disorder above)
 

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You know there's a problem when they claim to have "read all of the literature"---that isn't possible even for those of us who have been involved in this issue for years.<br><br>
You also know there's a problem when they insist they are fully informed, but still say circumcised penises are cleaner, everybody's doing it, and the foreskin is just "extra skin".<br><br>
Many people claim to know it all, but if you ask them to name three functions of the foreskin you'll rarely get more than a dumbfounded look. Ask them what meatal stenosis is and how common it is---it's the most frequent circumcision complication. Another blank stare or defensive posturing. Few circumcising parents are making a truly informed decision. They're just to culturally-blinded to realize it.<br><br>
Jen
 

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I think the main reason people still do it, even when confronted with the truth is fear. I think they are too afraid to make a change, to go against the grain. To NOT do something all their friends are doing. When someone says 'Eeeew' when speaking of not circing, they fear that that will be their child being made fun of some day.<br><br>
I have two intact sons (7 and 11) and being whole and normal has been such a non-issue in their lives. It's really never come up in any way- it's just who they are, just as we women get to be who we are- whole and unaltered (unless we choose to be<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"> )
 

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To begin with <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/Welcome.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="welcome"><br><br><br>
I have to admit that as far as <b>researching</b> the topic went before I had DS was that I asked the pediatrician if it was ok not to in the interveiw. (Not that I wanted her opinion but to see if I wanted her to be our Dr.) Probably for some of them the statement that they researched it amounts to asking a couple of family members and a doctor.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Tinijocaro</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/6495200"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I think the main reason people still do it, even when confronted with the truth is fear. I think they are too afraid to make a change, to go against the grain. To NOT do something all their friends are doing. When someone says 'Eeeew' when speaking of not circing, they fear that that will be their child being made fun of some day.</div>
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Yep. I have a good friend who's planning to circ her son because her dh can still remember the name of the one kid in school who wasn't circ'ed.<br><br>
She's just so afraid that her son will be different... and the docs and AAP basically don't take a stand one way or the other... circ'ing is kind of the path of least resistance. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">
 

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Yeah fear is a BIG one! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/nod.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="nod"> So many people feel the need to conform <i>even if it means</i> hurting their child. Individuality is just so looked-down upon. It's sad.<br><br>
It seems that there are many very complex reasons that this still persists. All the education in the world may not be enough if you can't change all the other factors discussed above.<br><br>
Hopefully when the intact kids are in the majority again, the rest of the flock will just follow along too.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>MomToKandE</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/6495287"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Yep. I have a good friend who's planning to circ her son because her dh can still remember the name of the one kid in school who wasn't circ'ed.<br><br>
She's just so afraid that her son will be different... and the docs and AAP basically don't take a stand one way or the other... circ'ing is kind of the path of least resistance. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"></div>
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Ah, how about this: Possibly the locker room story always goes "there was one guy who was intact" <span style="text-decoration:underline;"><b>not</b></span> because there was literally 1 guy, but because of the 3 or 4 guys who were intact, <span style="text-decoration:underline;"><b>he</b></span> was the one who was easiest to pick on (re: actually took it). <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"><br><br>
That's my new favourite argument for the "teasing in the locker room" myth.
 

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Ignorance; A lack of knowledge.<br>
I met a pregnant woman at the park today and asked her if she was having a boy or girl. She said boy. Of course I asked if she decided on having him circ'ed to which she replied "I'm leaving the decision up to my husband". I kinda freaked her out with my boldness and so she was "turned off" I later approaced her and apologized for coming off pushy. We then changed the subject.<br>
When she left I said to her. I would like to leave you with one thought.. There is not one Health organization in the world that supports circumcision. She said "Really?" I said yup. I then urged her to research the subject. She was also told that it is not medically necessary. She said she was going to talk to her Pediatrician about the subject. I also told her that some are pro and some are against. I also made sure she knew it was painful.. I told her that (the part she freaked over) I just viewed a circ video on utube earlier and it made me cry.. I told her I could never do that to my son. Screw the conformity..<br>
People are just ill informed... Ignorant.. Don't know.. don't want to know.. and it's not a subject that get's brought up in conversation often.. Mainstream Americans just keep their head in the sand and like it that way.<br><br>
Carolyn
 

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It seems a little crazy to me when people "research" and then still circ. I think there are a few reasons:<br><br>
1.) They read the pro-circ studies that support their own cultural bias to circ (they were <b>always</b> going to do it but can now say, "We did it because it prevents XYZ.").<br><br>
2.) They are unaware of the scientific weakness of some correlational studies out there and/or don't realize that the authors are known to have a pro-circ agenda.<br><br>
3.) They haven't considered or don't care about the ethics or morality of RIC (the consent/non-consent issue).<br><br>
4.) They don't know anything about the anatomy or function of a foreskin.<br><br>
5.) They don't consider how bizarre it is to remove a body part in hopes of preventing diseases that can still be acquired, can often be treated, and can be better prevented by behavioral modification.<br><br>
Interestingly, I'm a medical researcher and have found that there is a strong anti-circ leaning among my peers. Even considering that there could be a protective effect of circumcision on various STDs (heck, consider the huge surface area that is being removed - if we ladies removed our labias, maybe we'd have a reduced chance of contracting herpes, too), we are not swayed.
 

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*Big hugs for KlutzyGirl.*<br><br>
I think one of the reason circumcision is so accepted is that our culture is so <i>used to it</i>. We're desensitized.<br><br>
I think another issue (for circumcised guys, anyway), is that a lot of them don't want to accept that an important part of their penis is missing. Even if it were only a little important, it would still be hard to accept.<br>
Being a mutilated guy myself, I can totally relate to that. My life would be so much easier if I just convinced myself that it was no biggie, and that my foreskin wasn't important at all--it was just extra skin, and there were worthwhile benefits to being circed. Then I wouldn't have to deal with any of the anger, sadness, sense of violation, sense of betrayal by my parents, loss of respect (and friendship) for pro-circ friends, the social stigma that comes with being angry about your circumcision, absolute frustration and rage that I will never, ever know what it's like to have complete genitals, and the general lack of emotional support you get from most people in the midst of this (meaning that one has to try to deal with it all on their lonesome).<br><br>
Life is a lot easier if you believe that your circumcision was for the best. Who would ever want to face those sorts of emotional and social problems?<br><br>
I think a lot of mothers that have already circed their kids fall into a similar category: they can't accept anything that would mean they hurt their child so horrifically. For circumcised fathers who circumcised their sons, it's a double-whammy.<br><br>
And then beyond that, I think there are a lot of people who just aren't willing to accept something that might put stress on the majority of their friendships and relationships. As anyone here can tell you (I'm sure), accepting how terrible circumcision is does make it hard to get along with people that are pro-circ. It puts serious strains on those relationships.<br><br>
For all of these people, it's just easier on them and their lives if they just remain convinced that circumcision is good, or at worst neutral.<br><br>
But KlutzyGirl: rest assured that this is certainly not a hopeless cause. More and more people are being convinced that circumcision is wrong. I myself am circumcised, but if I have kids there is <i>no way in hell</i> that any doctor is coming near their genitals with any sort of sharp object (unless they're gangrene or something.)<br>
If any doctor cut up my kids genitals, he would most assuredly remain in his place of employment for a very long time to come. But as a patient, rather than a doctor.<br><br>
Progress <i>is</i> being made. Keep trying! Even if you only succeed in convincing someone 1 out of 100 times, it's still worth it. And you will get better at it the more you try, and the more you keep reading about circumcision.
 

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KlutzyGirl, are you by any chance going to be having a baby in January? Because you sound a lot like a woman who was on my birth board at a mainstream parenting site.<br><br>
I can't stand it either, and I stick around at said site to well, pretty much flame all the pro-circ people. That includes the people who don't do it, but think it's a personal choice. You would not believe the collection of emails I've received from moderators over there.
 

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My belief is in 'reality if they 'see stuff that is against circumcision with the true facts to 'face ' and would be a hard shocking reality to cope with because some parents may 'go it can't be that horrible as we are called anti-circ because it's still legal or some of the pro-circers who have brought the story of I saw it or the doctor did it - he did not cry or he was sleeping all the way through- not believing it was a shock coma stating it's not that bad as ppl make it to be.<br><br>
It's like the saying You just can't handle the truth because - no one really wants to hear there is no benefit for their son's circumcision and that the money went to a doctor pocket and their son's foreskin was regrown to sell to cosmetic co. for 2,000 a square and to hear they put their son through a 'real painful surgery for just a doctors profit and no benefit to their son.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I am amazed by how many people there are around here, I think it's just great that you all care so much about this usually private/not discussed issue.<br><br>
And I really appreciate your responses, especially yours blarg, because you bring a great perspective to the male point of view. All of you are right. It's a big combination of social stigma, pressure, and flat out ignorance. Plus, for the men to want their sons to have it done it probably validifies what is done to them, instead of having to deal with the thought that they were mutilated on their sexual organs (which I imagine must be really horrifically scary for a guy to deal with, I know if I grew up without a hood for my labia and found it was cut off for no good reason I am sure I would have unresolved issues for a lifetime).<br><br>
I just know this cycle will end one day, it's just so frustrating to be part of such a willing culture when the truth is right in front of our faces.<br><br>
2Sweeties1Angel, I am expecting in July, but I have lurked around other expectant boards and noticed their is always at least one of us being the dissenting voice on this subject, that alone is good news! I'm not sorry I spoke out, it was just hard to be the only one jumped on since I wasn't in the, "well, I would'nt do it to my child, but respect another persons right to their own decision" Camp. I just couldn't say it's ok for another person to do it, but not me and I guess I didn't expect the consequences. I'm growing a thick skin and backbone as I type this. :^)<br><br>
Thanks again, everyone!
 
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