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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It seems inevitable now:

a. Create hate/disdain for a group

b. (optional) have an event that "breaks the camels back" - such as Disney. If it really isn't much of an event - try and turn it into one.

c. enact legislation against said group.

Position statement: if you were one of the many people who tried to create hate or even non-acceptance of non-vaxxers by trolling, ad hominem attacks, making assumptions, writing hateful articles/blogs, liking viscious facebook posts, etc, etc, then whether or not you claim to be against mandatory vaccines, you have helped to create this climate and thus these proposed laws. The blame is on you.

So....tell me fellow vaccine critics (non-vax and sel/del welcome to post) is it too strong? Should I just blame the #$%* politicians who bring such bills or should I blame the climate and its contributors?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Blame the climate and it's contributors, FB, bloggers, and online posters, these a-hole legislators, and anyone else who supports such bogus bullsh*t.
I will then :grin:

Do you struggle at all with hating the haters?

Are you frustrated at all with MDC over their policy of not talking about mandatory vaccines? I am at the point where I am no longer interested in talking to those who support mandatory (which includes tough exemption laws) vaccines. I find it frustrating that I often have no idea whether the person I am arguing with on the main page is a parental choice advocate or mandatory advocate. Given the current real world situation, maybe it is time to put the cards on the table.
 

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I think you can blame whoever you want. The people you are talking about would probably welcome the blame. I think it's best to focus on the politicians. I'm not sure if the petitions do anything but I signed the big one and made my parents sign it too. Haven't heard anything about it.
 

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I will then :grin:

Do you struggle at all with hating the haters?

Are you frustrated at all with MDC over their policy of not talking about mandatory vaccines? I am at the point where I am no longer interested in talking to those who support mandatory (which includes tough exemption laws) vaccines. I find it frustrating that I often have no idea whether the person I am arguing with on the main page is a parental choice advocate or mandatory advocate. Given the current real world situation, maybe it is time to put the cards on the table.

I am extremely angry to the degree that this has been carried on, the lies that are spread, and the directed hate that is not even warranted. But....more than anything, I pity these haters. I feel bad for them because they live in such a state of lies. They can't see the forest for the trees and can't think for themselves. They are so easily mislead and misinformed by others who are corrupt in every sense of the word.

And yes, I am finding myself very frustrated over the MDC policy of not speaking about mandatory vaccination because I think those who support it should show their faces and their true colors. If those discussions were allowed, I certainly would not be able to carry on a discussion with someone who I knew supported such policies. Those people scare me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I think you can blame whoever you want. The people you are talking about would probably welcome the blame.
I think many would. It was the end game, all along.

I do think there are some people who engaged in ad hominem attacks who wanted to turn lurkers and fence sitters into vaxxers, but would not go so far as wanting mandatory vaccines...but that is what happened.

Off the top of my head, we have been called on a very regular basis selfish, conspiracy theorists and stupid (or some variation thereof). If you (general you) were engaged in a discussion and it became a bit too heated, and you said a few things you regret...fine. It happens. In an ideal world one apologises and edits. If you regularly find yourself saying hateful things to or about non-vaxxers, whether due to attempts at smear campaigns or because the issue is too volatile for you, then you are to blame for this mess even if mandatory vaccines had not been your intent.

Hatefulness comes with consequences - both personal and societal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I am extremely angry to the degree that this has been carried on, the lies that are spread, and the directed hate that is not even warranted. But....more than anything, I pity these haters. I feel bad for them because they live in such a state of lies. They can't see the forest for the trees and can't think for themselves. They are so easily mislead and misinformed by others who are corrupt in every sense of the word.

And yes, I am finding myself very frustrated over the MDC policy of not speaking about mandatory vaccination because I think those who support it should show their faces and their true colors. If those discussions were allowed, I certainly would not be able to carry on a discussion with someone who I knew supported such policies. Those people scare me.
You are kinder than I in pitying them.

I think many people who vaccinate are misled and poorly informed. They could not tell me what vaccines their kids had, what for, that pertussis is a lousy vaccine, risks of vaccines, etc, etc. I think most of the vaxxers who post on MDC vaccine forums are quite informed. They have just come to different conclusions than you and I.

I totally agree with your bottom paragraph.
 

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I would also add that their plans probably backfired a lot as well. I had already decided to vaccinate before Disney but hadn't yet made that first appointment. when I saw all the hate and proposed laws I definitely spooked. It took several days for me to chill out but some might not have.
 
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You are kinder than I in pitying them.

I didn't mean the use of the word "pity" as a compliment:grin: But I know what you're saying.

Sometimes these hate campaigns are so obvious, such as in the case of blogs bashing those who don't vaccinate, blogs providing such untruths that are so far-fetched and unrealistic, and blogs bashing and smearing legislators who all they are doing is asking for no discrimination against those who don't vaccinate and are asking for choice, that I can't understand how people fall for it. It's the strangest, saddest thing, and it's unfathomable. I've read the most ridiculous comments, articles, and blog posts in response to Disneyland that I gather that half of those people don't even know what they are talking about. They certainly need to scrub up on their facts before presenting such information.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
I will also add that I do not want to sound too victum-y.

I am well aware that on MDC, non-vaxxers are capable of being nasty too.

I think there are three types of nastiness we see here and elsewhere:

1. Reasonable people arguing who go too far. That can happen no matter your POV.
2. People being attracted to vaccine issues because they are haters.
3. People who use any chance they can to smear the other side, so the lurker will turn to their side.

This thread is primarily about those who engaged in #3 .
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I would also add that their plans probably backfired a lot as well. I had already decided to vaccinate before Disney but hadn't yet made that first appointment. when I saw all the hate and proposed laws I definitely spooked. It took several days for me to chill out but some might not have.
I can see that.

If I was vaccinating to protect my kids, then the hatefulness/proposed laws would not have changed my plans.

If I was convinced vaccinating was safe and was vaccinating for the herd (and some diseases, such as Polio, that my children have virtually no chance of getting I would argue are done for societal reasons) the backlash would have made me think twice.

If the government, doctors, media, public etc want me to do something nice for them (i.e. vaccinate ) they darn well need to be nice to me.

It would take a saint to be persuaded by"vaccinating for the greater good " arguments while simultaneously being told how awful a person you are.
 

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I can see that.

If I was vaccinating to protect my kids, then the hatefulness/proposed laws would not have changed my plans.
That's why I went with my decision. I don't remember who it was but someone here said something along the lines of "You already made the decision, all the hatefulness hasn't changed anything you used to make your decision."
I don't think hatefulness is ever appropriate.
 

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The hatefulness, groupthink, and torch-bearing angry villagers all scare the tar out of me. But knowing that some really slick PR firms are behind all of this emotion-whoring just pisses me off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The hatefulness, groupthink, and torch-bearing angry villagers all scare the tar out of me. But knowing that some really slick PR firms are behind all of this emotion-whoring just pisses me off.
Can you point to some PR firms or campaigns?

Aside from astro-turfing (and the only one I know of that meets the criteria for astro-turfing is V4V), I think I am a bit out of the loop on the above. Inquiring minds want to know!
 

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Can you point to some PR firms or campaigns?

Aside from astro-turfing (and the only one I know of that meets the criteria for astro-turfing is V4V), I think I am a bit out of the loop on the above. Inquiring minds want to know!
There are many large Madison Ave, PR firms that work with pharmaceutical companies. I worked in pharma PR, both with agencies and in-house and even 20 years ago, we were conducting "astroturf" type campaigns. I am sure it is much more sophisticated now.
 

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Can you point to some PR firms or campaigns?

Aside from astro-turfing (and the only one I know of that meets the criteria for astro-turfing is V4V), I think I am a bit out of the loop on the above. Inquiring minds want to know!
Here is one that provides "feeder" stories to syndicated newspapers.
http://www.graymediagroup.com/ (Most news outlets in the U.S. are in the hands of one of six giant corporations, so these feeder stories end up ubiquitous). Here is Gray's list of clients: http://www.graymediagroup.com/portfolio/

Interestingly, as covered in this documentary, the word "public relations" was coined by Freud's nephew, Edward Bernays, to replace the word "propaganda."
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thanks. I do not really doubt there are PR firms who either drum up hate or have a vested interest in drumming up hate for their clients, although i appreciate the links. Ditto media (which, as Turquesa points out, often get their "news" from feeder groups).

I am angrier with individuals than I am with PR firms or media, though. Both media and PT firms will go where the money/their client is - that is their job. This is not an excuse - it is simply that I know that corporations bottom line is the bottom line and I have close to zero expectations otherwise.

Individual humans, though.....I l have higher expectations of them. Maybe I shouldn't - I do know something of history! I think humans are incredibly prone to mob mentality.

I am toying around with the idea of majority responsibility.

Person A is a non-vaxxer and says hateful things
Person B is a vaxxer and says equally hateful things.

On a personal level, they are both behaving inappropriately.

On a societal level, though, the vaxxers actions, when taken as a whole, are more likely to result in semi fascist government laws, while rantings and raving of non-vaxxers are unlikely to do anything. They are in the majority, while NV and sel/del are not. Do you think that majorities have a specific responsibility to be aware of their power and wield it wisely...and do you think it is reasonable to expect individuals in a majority to get this and act accordingly?
 
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I will then :grin:

Do you struggle at all with hating the haters?
No, there is a clear path on this.
We have the ignorant that do no research and just pick the team they believe is right based on the fearporn they watch.
and then we have the stupid... can't fix stupid.

Are you frustrated at all with MDC over their policy of not talking about mandatory vaccines? I am at the point where I am no longer interested in talking to those who support mandatory (which includes tough exemption laws) vaccines. I find it frustrating that I often have no idea whether the person I am arguing with on the main page is a parental choice advocate or mandatory advocate. Given the current real world situation, maybe it is time to put the cards on the table.
I have diminished my posting for debate purposes because of this. I never thought I was going to convince the other debater of my point, but I did it for the lurkers.
 

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Conventional medicine wants to be number one,but just having the top slot was never enough.They want to remove alternatives.

The destruction of anything that takes away from allopaths has been going on for a very long time. You can still find documentation of this.

Forced insurance(that pays nothing),forced vaccination of children and certain adults,and eventually forced conventional medicine on people of all ages(happens now to some who decline a treatment).

Conventional medicine is to blame.They want it all.It is unfortunate.
 
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